Jay Leno's Take on the 426 Street Hemi

[harddrivin1le]

Jay owns a vintage 1970 Hemi Challenger R/T in production-line-stock (or very close to it) form.

This video is interesting because he repeatedly mentions the "myths" surrounding this engine (in its production line stock form) and its distinct lack of power relative to modern performance cars. He also mentions the car's terrible handling qualities, abysmal fuel economy and horrible quality control.

Jay Leno's Garage

Jay owns many performance cars and has driven even more of them, so I have to think that his opinion is a valid one.

It's really amazing that some people are paying hundreds of thousands of US dollars for an old clunker like that.

[Vindesh17]

that car makes me wet

[clutch-monkey]

i'd rock that car. hot

[NSXType-R]

Holy crap. That engine. Nuff said.

I couldn't help looking at this video either.

Jay Leno's Garage

[bmwpower]

OMG the noise it makes...legendary

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by harddrivin1le

Jay owns a vintage 1970 Hemi Challenger R/T in production-line-stock (or very close to it) form.

This video is interesting because he repeatedly mentions the "myths" surrounding this engine (in its production line stock form) and its distinct lack of power relative to modern performance cars. He also mentions the car's terrible handling qualities, abysmal fuel economy and horrible quality control.

Jay Leno's Garage

Jay owns many performance cars and has driven even more of them, so I have to think that his opinion is a valid one.

It's really amazing that some people are paying hundreds of thousands of US dollars for an old clunker like that.

I didn't hear him mention a lack of power in comparison to todays performance cars.

I am not sure I or many others would call a car like this an old clunker.

[fisetdavid26]

Originally Posted by harddrivin1le

Jay owns a vintage 1970 Hemi Challenger R/T in production-line-stock (or very close to it) form.

This video is interesting because he repeatedly mentions the "myths" surrounding this engine (in its production line stock form) and its distinct lack of power relative to modern performance cars. He also mentions the car's terrible handling qualities, abysmal fuel economy and horrible quality control.

Jay Leno's Garage

Jay owns many performance cars and has driven even more of them, so I have to think that his opinion is a valid one.

It's really amazing that some people are paying hundreds of thousands of US dollars for an old clunker like that.

Lack of power: a 7-liter V8 developing 425 gross bhp = lack of power? hmm...
Lack of handling: those cars were made for drag racing in mind.
Quality control: well it's an American car...
Abysmal fuel economy: I'm quite sure nobody expects 35 mpg out of a 7-liter V8 with 2 x 4 bbl, especially considering it was made it the late '60s.
Old clunker: what preposterous talk!

[harddrivin1le]

Originally Posted by Kitdy

I didn't hear him mention a lack of power in comparison to todays performance cars.

I am not sure I or many others would call a car like this an old clunker.

That's because you didn't want to hear it. You probably won't want to read it, either, but here are some direct quotes from the video.:

"These were mythical cars...can't stay on the road in its own ad...a lot of myths about these engines...it (engine) can't hold a candle to the stock base engine Corvette or even the new Mustang...[they] don't stop, don't go around corners. 'Car and Driver' and 'Road and Track' hated them...build quality was appalling."


Sounds like an "old clunker" to me.

Some of today's V6 family sedans (e.g. Toyota V6 Camry SE) are nearly as fast as that Hemi Challenger.

[harddrivin1le]

Originally Posted by fisetdavid26

Lack of power: a 7-liter V8 developing 425 gross bhp = lack of power? hmm...
Lack of handling: those cars were made for drag racing in mind.
Quality control: well it's an American car...
Abysmal fuel economy: I'm quite sure nobody expects 35 mpg out of a 7-liter V8 with 2 x 4 bbl, especially considering it was made it the late '60s.
Old clunker: what preposterous talk!

The engine made 350 SAE Net HP, per Chrysler Corp's ratings in 1971. (They published Gross and Net figures in the 1971 model year.) 1/4 mile trap speeds obtained in unmodified, actual production line stock examples (as opposed to specially prepared factory ringers and/or magazine "tuned"/modified examples) support that rating.

So yes, 350 Net HP from a 7.0 liter engine that required 102+ octane gasoline to run and was unhampered by emissions equipment, an air conditioning system and fuel economy standards of any sort is lacking in power, relatively speaking.

The 5.7 liter LS1 (also a 2 valve/pushrod V8) made 350 SAE Net HP 10 model years ago (1998 model year) and did it on 91 octane unleaded gas, with AC, power steering and modern emissions equipment. It also got 19 city/28 highway MPG. Even that's an older engine by today's standards. Its LS3 successor, for example, makes 436 SAE Net HP from 6.2 liters on 91 octane unleaded gas.

[nota]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

Holy crap. That engine. Nuff said.

I couldn't help looking at this video either.

Jay Leno's Garage

That video is great! Being an Asia-Pacific R/H/D market meant those cars were sold here (along with their little van-thing - another major revver) in modestly reasonable numbers, and are just sensational. I've even had a ride in one

I've come across Leno's site before. Must say it thoroughly impresses in quality, size & price and its hard not to admire the presenter. Dunno what he's like personally (don't really care either) but as a 'car guy' communicator he does talk the language and relates very well. Doesn't come across as arrogant or a braggard and I think he really excels in selecting and sharing those tidbits of delicious trivia. Eg "Like this tiny piston? Here's the chain drive assembly" etc. Not to mention the calibre of vehicles featured. And of course those demo drives

________

Not hard to guess where this thread is headed but I'll sneak in a different tack through a surprise diversion ..

Leno's knowledge credentials on Mopar's R/T Hemi Challenger seem to be fairly unimpeachable. As too would appear his assertion that these particular cars when equipped with 426 cid of Detroit's finest do "0-60 mph in about 6.2 seconds"

Which turns out to be no faster (in fact its a tad slower) than another Mopar R/T Hemi coupe of fair comparison, which also possessed a superior dynamic ability in virtually every dimension

However for the uninitiated this other 'muscle car' has a surprise in store .. (its both a Hemi and a Six Pack?! " I hear you ask)

Interested? Here's a reputable Road Test and one of my own Pics to show off those sensational lines

[roosterjuicer]

i gotta say im not a big fan of dodges and hemi's were a huuuge marketing success but werent as great as we think they are. that said, callengers are still gorgeous cars and are definately not clunkers. at their time they were alright cars (although they couldn't shake a stick at the camaro's/mustangs/chevelles) and they have a certain iconic mystique to them.

some people think the hemi powered chargers were the best cars of their time...personally im not a big fan I think the chevelle 454 ss takes the cake, but to each their own.

[NSXType-R]

Originally Posted by nota

That video is great! Being an Asia-Pacific R/H/D market meant those cars were sold here (along with their little van-thing - another major revver) in modestly reasonable numbers, and are just sensational. I've even had a ride in one

I've come across Leno's site before. Must say it thoroughly impresses in quality, size & price and its hard not to admire the presenter. Dunno what he's like personally (don't really care either) but as a 'car guy' communicator he does talk the language and relates very well. Doesn't come across as arrogant or a braggard and I think he really excels in selecting and sharing those tidbits of delicious trivia. Eg "Like this tiny piston? Here's the chain drive assembly" etc. Not to mention the calibre of vehicles featured. And of course those demo drives

Yeah, Leno's a cool guy. I'm happy that he enjoys all forms of automotive stuff, from pure power to pure finesse. He truly appreciates every little bit of it, and he's not a showoff while doing it either.

I really loved the Honda because I really would never have heard the sound of the engine if not for the video.

[harddrivin1le]

Originally Posted by nota

That video is great! Being an Asia-Pacific R/H/D market meant those cars were sold here (along with their little van-thing - another major revver) in modestly reasonable numbers, and are just sensational. I've even had a ride in one

I've come across Leno's site before. Must say it thoroughly impresses in quality, size & price and its hard not to admire the presenter. Dunno what he's like personally (don't really care either) but as a 'car guy' communicator he does talk the language and relates very well. Doesn't come across as arrogant or a braggard and I think he really excels in selecting and sharing those tidbits of delicious trivia. Eg "Like this tiny piston? Here's the chain drive assembly" etc. Not to mention the calibre of vehicles featured. And of course those demo drives

________

Not hard to guess where this thread is headed but I'll sneak in a different tack through a surprise diversion ..

Leno's knowledge credentials on Mopar's R/T Hemi Challenger seem to be fairly unimpeachable. As too would appear his assertion that these particular cars when equipped with 426 cid of Detroit's finest do "0-60 mph in about 6.2 seconds"

Which turns out to be no faster (in fact its a tad slower) than another Mopar R/T Hemi coupe of fair comparison, which also possessed a superior dynamic ability in virtually every dimension

However for the uninitiated this other 'muscle car' has a surprise in store .. (its both a Hemi and a Six Pack?! " I hear you ask)

Interested? Here's a reputable Road Test and one of my own Pics to show off those sensational lines

Good running, bone stock 426 street hemis could trap in the upper thirteens at around 105 MPH with a sharp tune (carb. and ignition adjustments only) and the lightest examples weighed 3,750 pounds. Such a car (e.g. '70 Hemi Cuda) could get into the lower-to-mid thirteens on slicks. That's pretty damn fast - by 1970 standards.

0 - 60 times of the original "muscle cars" were largely traction limited and therefore are not a good indicator of the vehicle's true potential. 1/4 mile trap speed is relatively unaffected by tire choice. Combined with race weight, 1/4 mile trap speed is therefore a far more accurate determining factor of engine power.

The 426 hemi was a very hot street engine by late 60s/early 70s standards and no-one is disputing that fact. It's just that a huge percentage of those who subscribe to the "muscle car" religion would have us believe that these engines made "500 HP right off the showroom floor." I posted this to dispute such claims and to demonstrate that modern pushrod/2 valve per cylinder American V8s are in much higher states of tune.

[harddrivin1le]

Originally Posted by roosterjuicer

i gotta say im not a big fan of dodges and hemi's were a huuuge marketing success but werent as great as we think they are. that said, callengers are still gorgeous cars and are definately not clunkers. at their time they were alright cars (although they couldn't shake a stick at the camaro's/mustangs/chevelles) and they have a certain iconic mystique to them.

some people think the hemi powered chargers were the best cars of their time...personally im not a big fan I think the chevelle 454 ss takes the cake, but to each their own.

Hemis weren't a marketing success back when they were new. They sold very few of them, due to their hugely expensive price (~ $800 in 1970, which was a lot of money). The 440/6 pack cars were nearly as fast (and were just as fast with $100 worth of aftermarket headers), far less expensive, easier to keep in tune, a little lighter and a slightly more fuel efficient.

Chrysler offered the street hemi for the purpose of sanctioning it as a "production engine" for drag racing and NASCAR purposes. It also served as a "halo engine" to bring people into the showrooms who ended up buying lowered powered versions of the same car (e.g. 383 magnum).

The Hemis low production numbers and the ties to racing are what made it "legendary."

It's worth noting that a modestly modified 426 street hemi (stock bore and stroke, stock heads, stock crank, stock rods, stock valves and block) can produce something on the order of 425 very "streetable" NET HP on 93 octane unleaded with a modern roller cam, a good set of headers, lighter pistons with modern rings, a modern, mandrel bent exhaust system and a modern carb. and intake manifold. That's 1 NET HP per cubic inch, which isn't exactly bad. A little cylinder head work (mild porting and blending and lighter valvetrain parts) can easily add another 25 NET HP.

[jcp123]

I would say they were a marketing success - they brought a reputation to the MoPar line, especially Plymouths, that Chrysler Corporation wanted. The fact that they didn't sell all that many only means it wasn't a sales success. Even then, I can't think that they thought they would sell many - again, it was a reputation engine.

And I disagree with the "clunker" terminology...