interesting read

[car_fiend]

just something a friend of mine passed onto me about the Israel/Palestine conflict. im just spreading it like wild fire, LOL. ne ways... here's the link.
If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)
and for the record, my point isnt to offend or make ne one look "bad/evil/ne other thing that comes to mind" . i just want the truth out and KNOWN!!!

[blingbling]

i havn't felt this ignorant since i found out what actually happened in east timur

[Pando]

I found a stream of the movie I mentioned in an earlier thread:

Occupation 101 - Google video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589)

It's really watch worthy.

[roosterjuicer]

very objective source.

there are thousands of statistics floating around the world on every subject every minute. Yay you found "what every american should know.org". Try being objective, find multiple sources, from BOTH sides!

When i go do some research on what football team to bet on, I dont just go to the home teams website or a bunch of home team bloggers to make my decision. I look at tons of information from both sides then try to look at the situation objectively based on both sides argument and what i deduce from common sense, thow in a little supposedly objective picks from the media and thats how i make my decision.

People should do the same thing when looking at international politics and everything in life. Look at some pro israeli stuff (even if you disagree!) look at some pro palestinian stuff (Even if you disagree), look at some allegedly objective reporting (cnn, fox, little news agencies, big news agencies, blogs, ect...) in your mind let each side make an argument and then try your hardest to look at it objectively. but whatever you do, dont just find some statistics on a random website that is clearly not trying to be objective and follow it blindly because you can probably find some other random website with different statistics about the same topic.

remember, 95.6% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[car_fiend]

very objective source.

there are thousands of statistics floating around the world on every subject every minute. Yay you found "what every american should know.org". Try being objective, find multiple sources, from BOTH sides!

When i go do some research on what football team to bet on, I dont just go to the home teams website or a bunch of home team bloggers to make my decision. I look at tons of information from both sides then try to look at the situation objectively based on both sides argument and what i deduce from common sense, thow in a little supposedly objective picks from the media and thats how i make my decision.

People should do the same thing when looking at international politics and everything in life. Look at some pro israeli stuff (even if you disagree!) look at some pro palestinian stuff (Even if you disagree), look at some allegedly objective reporting (cnn, fox, little news agencies, big news agencies, blogs, ect...) in your mind let each side make an argument and then try your hardest to look at it objectively. but whatever you do, dont just find some statistics on a random website that is clearly not trying to be objective and follow it blindly because you can probably find some other random website with different statistics about the same topic.

remember, 95.6% of statistics are made up on the spot.

1stly watch the video.......
2. honestly, these are the facts. just because the website has a certain address and says something that "could be made up" doesnt mean a thing. just look at TODAY'S news. the statistics are backed by what is going on in that region. there are hundreds more palestinians killed by israelis than there are israelis killed by palestinians. and NO ONE has stepped in to stop it. and where is the U.S. to STOP TERRORISM IN THE MIDDLE EAST now??? had palestinians made one little attack, all of a sudden, "terrorist attacks in the Middle East", but no. Israelis attack, and a slap on the wrist is an exaggerated way of putting it, condemning israelis attack.

[CdocZ]

there are hundreds more palestinians killed by israelis than there are israelis killed by palestinians.

Where did you see figures saying such? One should be wary of such numbers, because as one example shows, Fox News got itself into a bad spot back when suicide bombings were getting to a high point because they included the number of "non-Israeli's" killed in Palestinian-sponsored suicide bombings, in the number of people killed by Israeli retaliatory attacks (the country is considered to be 80% Israeli (whatever that means, because Arabic Israeli citizens are counted in the other 20%, but whatever to that odd detail)).

I am not saying you are wrong, by the way. I am simply wondering where you saw a statistic stating that the ratio of Israeli's killed by Palestinians to Palestinians killed by Israeli's, to be so obscenely lopsided. I would figure such a ratio to lean towards the Israeli's, yes, but probably not as strongly as if it was offset by hundreds.

[Zytek_Fan]

There's been some protesting at the Israeli Embassy in D.C.

[wwgkd]

There's been some protesting at the Israeli Embassy in D.C.

Protesting (complaining) is America's national sport.

[Matra et Alpine]

The reasons the balance of injury/fatality is so huge is that currently the Palestinian extremists are launching bodged, home-made "rockets" across their borders with very little accuracy and no control once launched. So "aim" is a rather crude attempt.
Just from yesterday ...
South Israel: At least 20 Palestinian rockets landed, including in Ashkelon, Ashdod and Sderot. No casualties were reported but a house in Ashkelon was hit.
Compare that with earlier ...
Gaza City, Rafah, Khan Younis: Israel launches a wave of air and missile attacks on targets across Gaza. Some 225 people are killed, according to local medics. Most are policemen within the Hamas militant movement; police chief Tawfik Jaber is among the dead. Women and children also died, according to officials in Gaza.
( quotes taken from BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Map: Gaza and Israel conflict (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7805808.stm) )

Israel forces are using high explosive, guided munitions into a much more heavily populated area. So logic suggests they will ALWAYS have a higher kill-rate. It's disproportionate force and they dont' seem to realise ( as Bush never got in Iraq ) that application of such offset-strength only creates more anger from the weaker opponent who then feels they have to do what they can to escalate and to "terrorise" to balance their lack of "shock and awe" :(

[BigNate]

Thanks for the link, was a good read indeed.

[CdocZ]

It's disproportionate force and they dont' seem to realise ( as Bush never got in Iraq ) that application of such offset-strength only creates more anger from the weaker opponent who then feels they have to do what they can to escalate and to "terrorise" to balance their lack of "shock and awe" :(

I think Israel is starting to realize, however, considering the recent reviews of their munitions usage post the munition-related trouble they got into when they last went after Hezbollah in Lebanon. Ever since, they (or at least the government) have started paying more attention to what the military was actually doing, and with what they were doing it.

[Zytek_Fan]

Israel: Ground forces move into Gaza - Israel-Palestinians- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/?GT1=43001)

I'm sure the BBC has a better article on this. All the US-based ones seem Israeli biased...

[my porsche]

95.6% of statistics are made up on the spot.
That's one of my favorite lines to use. :p

Anyway, trying to pass that link off as "the facts" is jesty. :)

Like Matra said, the Israelis are just better at warfare. :p

[Matra et Alpine]

Interesting quote from that link Z|ytek :)
At an emergency consultation of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday night, the U.S. blocked approval of a statement demanded by Arab countries that would have called for an immediate cease-fire. U.S. deputy ambassador Alejandro Wolff said the U.S. believed that such a statement "would not be adhered to and would have no underpinning for success, (and) would not do credit to the council."
Sorry guys,m but America is the REAL problem with the UN.
They've just blocked ANOTHER attempt to make a stance and had the audacity to suggest that making a statement requiring a cease fire and Israeli forces to stop blockading humanitarian aid would "damage" them ??
FFS !!!!

Yes, the BBC "facts" have a slight less bias BUT the fact that Israel is blocking access to correspondents despite a court ruling otherwise will make true facts "difficult" :(
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli troops clash with Hamas (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7810270.stm)
Many world leaders have called for an immediate ceasefire, but the US has backed its ally, Israel.

A European Union delegation is beginning a visit to the region, and Russia says it will send its envoy.

Earlier the United Nations Security Council failed to agree a united approach to the crisis.

Diplomatic sources said the United States had blocked an agreement. US Ambassador Alejandro Wolff suggested that an official statement that criticised both Israel and Hamas would not have been helpful.

"not have been helpful" ... how can that person say that !!
ANYTHING at this time would be helpful ... except might it have made the UN look "good" ? Something the neo-cons never want :)

I wonder, A major military force once invaded a country because of attacks from across the border into a "Legitimate nation". At that time the US gave the Mujahadin guided missiles to neutralise air support and tank incursions. WOnder the "excuse" this time :) :)

[roosterjuicer]

Idespite a court ruling otherwise will make true facts "difficult"

perhaps i missed it...but what court ruled otherwise? an israeli court?

[Matra et Alpine]

Court backs limited foreign press entry to Gaza | Israel | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456536329&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

and how about this ?

A delegation of leaders of American Jewish organizations will be visiting Israel this week to show "support and solidarity with the people and government of Israel as they confront Hamas terrorism and the continuous rain of rockets on civilian populations," its statement said.
This is why the USA has lost respect in the world communities guys.
On one hand won't let the UN admonish Hamas and Israel and on the other sends delegates to "support".
YES, to you and I we can see the difference between government and organsiation, but those who feel down-trodden or ignored won't :( :(

[john14]

Court backs limited foreign press entry to Gaza | Israel | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456536329&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

and how about this ?


This is why the USA has lost respect in the world communities guys.
On one hand won't let the UN admonish Hamas and Israel and on the other sends delegates to "support".
YES, to you and I we can see the difference between government and organsiation, but those who feel down-trodden or ignored won't :( :(

As we all know, Jewish people have a lot of money and influence in the United States of America, of course America will unfairly give too much support to Israel. Also, let's not forget that many of white cacausian church going Christians in America support Israel as well and want Israel to be defended at all costs. America will always be nice to Israel and won't care that much if they kill Palestinians.

[roosterjuicer]

Court backs limited foreign press entry to Gaza | Israel | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456536329&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

and how about this ?


seems like that is a "proposal" which is quite different from a "ruling".

I dont know why it is so surprising that the US is supporting israel. as someone mentioned earlier, the jews have a lot of power in this country. Additionally, in general, popular opinion in america heavily favors israel just like how popular opinion in syria and egypt heavily favors the palestinians.

no matter how you spin it, neither side is completely wrong and neither side is completely right so there shouldn't be this huge outcry, its not like israel is evil or something, just like palestine is not evil some people will go one way, others will go the other.

[wwgkd]

seems like that is a "proposal" which is quite different from a "ruling".

I dont know why it is so surprising that the US is supporting israel. as someone mentioned earlier, the jews have a lot of power in this country. Additionally, in general, popular opinion in america heavily favors israel just like how popular opinion in syria and egypt heavily favors the palestinians.

no matter how you spin it, neither side is completely wrong and neither side is completely right so there shouldn't be this huge outcry, its not like israel is evil or something, just like palestine is not evil some people will go one way, others will go the other.

Well, egyptian popular opinion may be supporting the palestinians, but that's not stopping the egyptian millitary from confronting the palestinians at the border. Remember, egyptians have already been shot by palestinians during this conflict, and probably vice versa but it wasn't reported.

[roosterjuicer]

Well, egyptian popular opinion may be supporting the palestinians, but that's not stopping the egyptian millitary from confronting the palestinians at the border. Remember, egyptians have already been shot by palestinians during this conflict, and probably vice versa but it wasn't reported.

indeed, whatever popular opinion is, the reality is that no country wants to support thousands of refugees no matter how much they support their policies.

lets not forget about the jew quotas in the US that prevented a lot of jews from leaving europe. (although popular opinion at the time was definitely anti jew at the time)

[Pando]

At least 30 people were killed and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a United Nations-run school in Gaza, UN officials have said.

...

Palestinian medical sources say up to 600 people have been killed since the attacks began, and Mr Kraehenbuhl said much more needed to be done to protect civilians.

...

About 350 people had sought refuge at the school in effort to escape the fighting between Israeli soldiers and militants on the outskirts of the refugee camp, to the east of Gaza City.

Television footage showed bodies scattered on the ground amid pools of blood.

...

"Nowhere is safe for civilians here in Gaza at the moment. They are fleeing their homes and they are right to do it when you look at the casualty numbers."

"It's very, very dangerous, and even the 14,000 who have sought refuge in our schools and shelters, they are not safe either."

Mr Ging said international leaders had a responsibility to act to protect civilians.

"You cannot conduct huge military operations in such densely-populated places without killing hundreds and injuring thousands of civilians," he added.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm)

Killing children =/= cool.

[roosterjuicer]

wow...

FOXNews.com - Protester Calls for Jews to 'Go Back to the Oven' at Anti-Israel Demonstration - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html)

[my porsche]

Protester Calls for Jews to 'Go Back to the Oven' at Anti-Israel Demonstration

Ah, the religion of peace. :)

[Pando]

Ah, the religion of peace. :)
Using both the word religion and peace in the same sentence should, as you've correctly done only be used in a sarcastic sense.

However, regardless of views, I think every one of us would be pretty pissed off to say the least were we in the shoes of the Palestinians.

[roosterjuicer]

FOXNews.com - Israel Hit by Rockets From Lebanon, Conflict Widens - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477745,00.html)

two front war anyone?

[LeonOfTheDead]

FOXNews.com - Israel Hit by Rockets From Lebanon, Conflict Widens - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477745,00.html)

two front war anyone?

Israeli themselves refused the possibility saying it was an isolated group, and that the it's something ONU (or something similar, can't remember) should control since the rockets were launched from an area under the control of peace forces.

[roosterjuicer]

Israeli themselves refused the possibility saying it was an isolated group, and that the it's something ONU (or something similar, can't remember) should control since the rockets were launched from an area under the control of peace forces.

Pssshh the UN wont protect israel (or palestine for that matter) the UN is just a pretty face there and will absolutely not get its hands dirty for the good of anyone.

[Matra et Alpine]

rooster, I do have to say ... given the way Israel ( and the US allies ) have IGNORED countless UN resolutions then I think it a little rich for anyoen to bleat about lack of protection for Israel. THere's only so much hypocrisy we can handle :)

The UN many times has and tries harder to support all in the area. BUT anything that's against Israeli interests seems to encounter a block from a certain nation :(

[Pando]

FOXNews.com - Israel Hit by Rockets From Lebanon, Conflict Widens - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477745,00.html)

two front war anyone?
Do you seriously go to Fox for news? :confused:

[roosterjuicer]

rooster, I do have to say ... given the way Israel ( and the US allies ) have IGNORED countless UN resolutions then I think it a little rich for anyoen to bleat about lack of protection for Israel. (

notice how i said the UN wont protect israel (or palestine for that matter). which means i was saying that the UN isn't protecting either of them i was bleating about the UN failing in its job to protect both countries.

You essentially make my point for me and probably clearer than I did. the UN has all these resolutions that countries just IGNORE. The fact that all a country has to do is ignore a UN resolution and nothing happens to them and they can go on and do whatever it wants speaks volumes about the UN's relevancy.

it kind of reminds me of a line andrew jackson once said. it basically went like this "the supreme court has made a decision...now lets watch them try to enforce it"...jackson then went on to continue with his forced removal of Indians. the UN is essentially like the supreme court in this situation, it tells people to do something but refuses to enforce its decisions.

[LeonOfTheDead]

notice how i said the UN wont protect israel (or palestine for that matter). which means i was saying that the UN isn't protecting either of them i was bleating about the UN failing in its job to protect both countries.

You essentially make my point for me and probably clearer than I did. the UN has all these resolutions that countries just IGNORE. The fact that all a country has to do is ignore a UN resolution and nothing happens to them and they can go on and do whatever it wants speaks volumes about the UN's relevancy.

it kind of reminds me of a line andrew jackson once said. it basically went like this "the supreme court has made a decision...now lets watch them try to enforce it"...jackson then went on to continue with his forced removal of Indians. the UN is essentially like the supreme court in this situation, it tells people to do something but refuses to enforce its decisions.

refuse, or can't?

[Matra et Alpine]

ahem ... the UN makes lots of resolutions that ISRAEL has ignored and continues to ignore and the US uses it's veto more than anyone else when the UN tries to get tough !!

And the UN isn't an aggresive force, it's a peace-KEEPING force ( unliek the US/UK attempts in Iraq :( ) ... and so if either party wants to be bolshie, then the UN has no remit.

I really do wish America hadn't destroyed the UN repoutation by bad PR and twisting the truth of cases .... eg how often the UN "failed" and how many times because the UN mandate was weakened to appease the veto owners ( one in particular ). Neo cons did what they needed to weaken any alternative world power than the one they'd liek to build ! Far too much democracy in the UN structure :)

[roosterjuicer]

And the UN isn't an aggresive force, it's a peace-KEEPING force ( unliek the US/UK attempts in Iraq :( ) ... and so if either party wants to be bolshie, then the UN has no remit.
)

if it truly is meant to "keep peace" what is the point of it? you dont need any kind of force if there is already peace. me and my neighbor get along fine...we dont need a cop there to make sure we keep being peaceful. but if we hate eachother and start getting our dogs to crap on eachothers lawns and key eachothers cars, then we need a cop to come and regulate our behavior. same thing with the UN.

the UN is brought in in situations where peace needs to be made. it was brought in pretty effectively for the korean war, and in desert storm. both of which it made peace because there was to peace to be kept...then, once peace is made, then it can be kept.

[Matra et Alpine]

The UN won't go in to an active battle field. They negotiate a peace-of-sorts and then put things in place to maintain it.

Otherwise, it woudl risk being worse than the evils it was set up to avert !!!