GM's V-series challenge

[Runfromcheney]

Well, in case you haven't heard, GM is holding a "V-series" challenge. This is where Bob Lutz will drive laps around Laguna Seca in a Cadillac CTS-V, and any challenger can come with a competitive car and try to beat his lap time. Some car blogs have been accepted, such as The Truth About Cars and Jalopnik, and some private competitors will come as well.

So, if you were in the contest, what car would you choose to try to defeat Maximum Bob and the CTS-V around Laguna Seca?

[fpv_gtho]

CTS-V driven by Lutz wouldnt be hard to beat. I'd imagine the first 'Vette to show up would come pretty damn close.

[pimento]

Note: it has to be a 4-door saloon.

There's a Jag XFR going against it that could be fun, but there's no AMGs.. I reckon an E63 could be a goer. Or if you want to get silly, a Panamera turbo..

[fpv_gtho]

OK then, that restricts it a fair bit then. Do they want the competing cars to remain stock?

[pimento]

Yea. Given this is a marketeering exercise, they're gonna be picky about it. Stock, 4-door saloons. Maybe if we're being fanciful on here we can say 4-door saloons with mods up to the purchase price of a CTS-V, but essentially it should be a competitor in that segment.

[W.R.]

Note: it has to be a 4-door saloon.

There's a Jag XFR going against it that could be fun, but there's no AMGs.. I reckon an E63 could be a goer. Or if you want to get silly, a Panamera turbo..

Damn killjoys, I'd have taken a Pescarolo-Judd as well.

Would something bought directly through Brabus count?

[coolieman1220]

how bout an M5? that should do it.

[roosterjuicer]

how bout an M5? that should do it.

i dunno i think that would be its closest competition but the caddy has a 56hp advantage. it also brakes about the same and handles about the same so i think the caddy wins it.

YouTube - Cadillac CTS-V vs BMW M5 Performance Testing

[Dino Scuderia]

Here's Randy Pobst taking it around Laguna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFRXGZuiZgo&feature=PlayList&p=C3BD3B497D72CDBC&index=7

[fpv_gtho]

Would something bought directly through Brabus count?

Counts enough for Guinness W.R.

But would those beasts handle a racetrack?

[Kitdy]

It's actually being held at Monticello Raceway.

Mercedes unfortunately isn't letting any journalists use a C63 AMG. Also, GM might not accept that car so a double no. On deck though include an RS4, M3 and M5 of unknown vintages. Jalopnik's Wes Siler will be driving an XFR.

[NSXType-R]

How about a Lexus IS-F?

[roosterjuicer]

How about a Lexus IS-F?

isn't that only 400hp though?

[Rockefella]

I'll bring a Bonneville and wipe the floor with those suckaz

[roosterjuicer]

i'll bring a bonneville and wipe the floor with those suckaz

3800 4 life!!!

[cmcpokey]

I'll bring a Bonneville and wipe the floor with those suckaz

it is a road course and not an autox... so the autoxbonne might be out of its element.

and thanks kitdy for correcting everyone about it not being at laguna. i was hoping it was, because i wanted to go watch.

[Kitdy]

How about a Lexus IS-F?

isn't that only 400hp though?

An IS-F is no M3 or C63. The M3 is more nimble and the C63 significantly more powerful.

I think it'd be interesting if someone showed up in a Panamera Turbo, C63, or E92 M3. Even though they are all down on power, I think that they would be the best challengers to the CTS-V.

[Kitdy]

I'll bring a Bonneville and wipe the floor with those suckaz

Werd.

3800 4 life!!!

Who needs modern technology?

it is a road course and not an autox... so the autoxbonne might be out of its element.

and thanks kitdy for correcting everyone about it not being at laguna. i was hoping it was, because i wanted to go watch.

The Autoxbonne is never out of it's element. It – like the 1.8T – is unbeatable. Were you to drop a 1.8T in the Autoxbonne, it'd create something so awesome that it would cease to exist.

Shame though that it's not at Laguna, a much more epic and storied track than the one they are using.

[Cobrafan427]

Aston Martin Rapide? Might be interesting even tho the Aston's long wheel base could affect handling

[roosterjuicer]

Aston Martin Rapide? Might be interesting even tho the Aston's long wheel base could affect handling

once again, not enough power (although if it were a looks competition i think it would dominate). i still think the m5 is its closest competition. isn't an m5 faster than an m3 or are they about even steven?

[NSXType-R]

isn't that only 400hp though?

Just about.

An IS-F is no M3 or C63. The M3 is more nimble and the C63 significantly more powerful.

I think it'd be interesting if someone showed up in a Panamera Turbo, C63, or E92 M3. Even though they are all down on power, I think that they would be the best challengers to the CTS-V.

I'm not sure if the M3 and the IS-F are that far apart. Car and Driver compared the two together, so certainly it shouldn't be all too bad.

And in any case, it seems to be more of a product relations thing more than anything else.

[Ferrer]

Just about.
425bhp actually.

But comparing sports saloons by their lap times is as pointless as wanting the Veyron because it can do 400km/h...

[roosterjuicer]

425bhp actually.

But comparing sports saloons by their lap times is as pointless as wanting the Veyron because it can do 400km/h...

good point.

as you all probably know, i am a huge GM fanboy but I would much rather have an an aston martin, a c63 or even a jaguar xj although i dont know if i would want to pay for any of these cars) than the cts-v even though it is the fastest. it just doesn't seem like that "nice" of a car to me.

[Ferrer]

good point.

as you all probably know, i am a huge GM fanboy but I would much rather have an an aston martin, a c63 or even a jaguar xj although i dont know if i would want to pay for any of these cars) than the cts-v even though it is the fastest. it just doesn't seem like that "nice" of a car to me.
But it doesn't really matter that it is the fastest.

The M3 is faster than the 335i, but in my opinion the 335i is a much nicer car than the M3. Like wise it doesn't matter that the CTS-V is the fastest, what matters is if it can win your heart.

[Auxin]

Panamera Turbo, Bugatti Galibier (being fantastical).

[Wes.Coleman]

I think maybe an EVO FQ-400 could give it a run for its money. I'd like to see the Caddy win, though.

[Runfromcheney]

But it doesn't really matter that it is the fastest.

The M3 is faster than the 335i, but in my opinion the 335i is a much nicer car than the M3. Like wise it doesn't matter that the CTS-V is the fastest, what matters is if it can win your heart.


Agreed with that. If I were buying an entry level luxury sedan, I would buy a Mercedes-Benz C300 Luxury. It is not the fastest, or most stylish, but I like its layout, as well as the impeccable quality, durability and capabilities. The fact that it reminds me of the W123 (which is my favorite) car also gives bonus points. So yeah, it doesn't matter if a car is the fastest around a track, it depends on the overall package and how that fits the customer. If I were in the market for a sedan of the CTS' class, I would get the Mercedes just because the overall package fits me best.

[clutch-monkey]

isn't it unfair for the CTS-V to have lutz drive it?

[Kitdy]

But comparing sports saloons by their lap times is as pointless as wanting the Veyron because it can do 400km/h...

But it doesn't really matter that it is the fastest.

But can't you enjoy this as a stupid diversion? What a heated conflict this should be!

isn't it unfair for the CTS-V to have lutz drive it?

Retired GM engineer/test driver/racer John Heinricy will also apparently be there just in case anyone is a real hot hand. He's the guy that lapped the ZR1 and CTS-V around the 'ring.

[Ferrer]

But can't you enjoy this as a stupid diversion? What a heated conflict this should be!
When it's GM PR galore? No I can't.

[whiteballz]

HSV R8?

IIRC the ISF is just about as quick as the M3 sedan around the top gear test track?

[LeonOfTheDead]

Without even considering if GM tuned the car specifically for that "track" or even if the car was developed on the same "track", I'd go there with a Maserati Quattroporte Sport GT-S.
I wouldn't really care to beat the lap time, I'd be very happy to own the QP instead of the CTS-V.

Realistically, the QP proved to be very quick on tracks, despite being very heavy and not is powerful, so I don't think it would be completely out of the game.
I'd pick an Alpina otherwise, which aren't tuned cars as Alpina is registered as an automaker, but the 5 Series is getting old, and the 7 Series is a boat.

Why Mercedes isn't allowing journalists to use a C63?

[Ferrer]

Why Mercedes isn't allowing journalists to use a C63?
For fear of getting destroyed.

[G35COUPE]

Well, in case you haven't heard, GM is holding a "V-series" challenge. This is where Bob Lutz will drive laps around Laguna Seca in a Cadillac CTS-V, and any challenger can come with a competitive car and try to beat his lap time. Some car blogs have been accepted, such as The Truth About Cars and Jalopnik, and some private competitors will come as well.

So, if you were in the contest, what car would you choose to try to defeat Maximum Bob and the CTS-V around Laguna Seca?


An M-3, a Nismo 370z, a 911 GT2, or may be a well set up E55 AMG sedan.

I refused to introduce a GTR on this list because depending on the driver and conditions, the GTR could really embarrass the CTS-V. My choices are based on weight and suspension set up and not on horsepower, which the CTS-V has plenty of.

[G35COUPE]

I think maybe an EVO FQ-400 could give it a run for its money. I'd like to see the Caddy win, though.

I agree completely. Trust me, i know. I have run with an EVO that was pushing 400 horses and it was the first time i saw a car move like a bullet at high RPMS.

I consider the Evo a very dark car. It is very subtle, looks harmless, most evo owners I know tend to have questionable characters, their singular aim on the road is to disgrace and destroy the myth surrounding far more expensive cars with such a little car.

[cmcpokey]

An M-3, a Nismo 370z, a 911 GT2, or may be a well set up E55 AMG sedan.

I refused to introduce a GTR on this list because depending on the driver and conditions, the GTR could really embarrass the CTS-V. My choices are based on weight and suspension set up and not on horsepower, which the CTS-V has plenty of.

the problem is, this challenge is restricted to 4 door saloon cars only. so you are down to the M3 (no hyphen) and E55. MB has already said they aren't playing, and the M5 is supposed to be there anyway.

[henk4]

the problem is, this challenge is restricted to 4 door saloon cars only. so you are down to the M3 (no hyphen) and E55. MB has already said they aren't playing, and the M5 is supposed to be there anyway.
put Andy Priaulx behind the wheel and we are done with this farce....

[ThisBlood147]

I foresee Lutz spending the 2 to 3 weeks prior to the event at the track practicing like his life depends on it. Everyone else will probably be expected to show up and run a single lap.:rolleyes:

Marketing BS at its finest. All the performance in the world couldn't overturn the fact that it's an ugly, unappealing car..........IMO.

[Ferrer]

I consider the Evo a very dark car. It is very subtle, looks harmless, most evo owners I know tend to have questionable characters, their singular aim on the road is to disgrace and destroy the myth surrounding far more expensive cars with such a little car.
Big wing, flared wheel arches and scoops all over the body? It's not a subtle car.

A Leon Cupra R is subtle.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Big wing, flared wheel arches and scoops all over the body? It's not a subtle car.

A Leon Cupra R is subtle.

previous gen XJR is subtle.

[Ferrer]

previous gen XJR is subtle.
New XJ Supercharged even more.

[LeonOfTheDead]

New XJ Supercharged even more.

I picked the older as the new one seems to be more of a looker even in the base trim, while the previous gen has subtler style.

[Ferrer]

I picked the older as the new one seems to be more of a looker even in the base trim, while the previous gen has subtler style.
Then I think there was a Super V8 version without the R treatment for even more Q-car kudos.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Then I think there was a Super V8 version without the R treatment for even more Q-car kudos.

Yep, I remember that, but after all the R just had the metal grille and possibly 18" tires instead of 17", everything else was pretty stock.

[Guibo]

I think maybe an EVO FQ-400 could give it a run for its money.
Think you're right. If Car Magazine's recent comparo at the Rockingham road circuit is anything to go by, the Evo has an excellent shot.

1:36.22 - Mercedes E63 AMG
1:36.64 - Mitsu Evo FQ400
1:36.83 - Porsche Panamera Turbo
1:38.85 - Cadillac CTS-V
1:39.07 - Audi S4
1:39.37 - Jaguar XFR

E90 M3 should be pretty close too. Randy Pobst's time at Laguna Seca in the E92 M3 coupe w/dual clutch transmission last year was 1:43.0, and his time this year with the CTS-V was a 1:43.9. The E90 sedan isn't that much slower than the coupe. C&D's editors lapped Laguna in 1:44.10 in an E90 M3 with the 6-speed manual, which is 0.2s slower than their time in the E92 M3 w/DKG on a different day.

I would love to see the following matchups:
Ulrich Bez in Rapide vs Lutz in CTS-V
Hans Stuck in M3 vs Heinricy
W. Rohrl in Panamera vs Heinricy

[G35COUPE]

Think you're right. If Car Magazine's recent comparo at the Rockingham road circuit is anything to go by, the Evo has an excellent shot.

1:36.22 - Mercedes E63 AMG
1:36.64 - Mitsu Evo FQ400
1:36.83 - Porsche Panamera Turbo
1:38.85 - Cadillac CTS-V
1:39.07 - Audi S4
1:39.37 - Jaguar XFR

E90 M3 should be pretty close too. Randy Pobst's time at Laguna Seca in the E92 M3 coupe w/dual clutch transmission last year was 1:43.0, and his time this year with the CTS-V was a 1:43.9. The E90 sedan isn't that much slower than the coupe. C&D's editors lapped Laguna in 1:44.10 in an E90 M3 with the 6-speed manual, which is 0.2s slower than their time in the E92 M3 w/DKG on a different day.

I would love to see the following matchups:
Ulrich Bez in Rapide vs Lutz in CTS-V
Hans Stuck in M3 vs Heinricy
W. Rohrl in Panamera vs Heinricy


Nice data. I am not a fan of Mitsubishi at all. To those who wish to deride and look down upon an Evo, make sure you never try to race one, ever---protect your honor. If you do race one, be sure you have 450 horses and above under the hood. In fact, under some conditions, the Evo can still flog you. This is a kiddie car with the heart of a giant.

[cmcpokey]

another problem with the FQ-400 is that for this challenge, the car needs to be avaliable in the US. IIRC, the FQ-400 is built by Ralliart in the UK for the UK market only.

[Ferrer]

Nice data. I am not a fan of Mitsubishi at all. To those who wish to deride and look down upon an Evo, make sure you never try to race one, ever---protect your honor. If you do race one, be sure you have 450 horses and above under the hood. In fact, under some conditions, the Evo can still flog you. This is a kiddie car with the heart of a giant.
Which has been the way with all Group A homologation specials since Lancia invented the HF 4WD.
another problem with the FQ-400 is that for this challenge, the car needs to be avaliable in the US. IIRC, the FQ-400 is built by Ralliart in the UK for the UK market only.
I think some European markets have them as well, but not the 400.

[Runfromcheney]

another problem with the FQ-400 is that for this challenge, the car needs to be avaliable in the US. IIRC, the FQ-400 is built by Ralliart in the UK for the UK market only.

Yeah. GM intended this challenge for the CTS-V to go against its direct competitors. No weird foreign cars will be allowed.

[Ferrer]

Yeah. GM intended this challenge for the CTS-V to go against its direct competitors. No weird foreign cars will be allowed.
Except that the CTS-V isn't sold only in the US...

[Runfromcheney]

I know, it is sold in Europe as well. What I was trying to say was that GM intended this to be a pissing contest between them and their most obvious competition. It isn't, "come and see if you can bring a faster car than the CTS-V". They intended this to be a match between the Cadillac and the likes of the BMW M5, Audi RS8, Jaguar XFR, Mercedes-Benz AMC E-63, etc. IDK if they would allow some car built by an obscure European tuning house. Hey, this is a GM publicity stunt, so they are obviously going to stack the deck in their favor, is the main point. Remember that GM has to approve each challenger.

[cmcpokey]

so jag pulled out, saying that they didnt feel that their brakes were up to the task of being pummeled for 5 laps on a track. it's now going to be an EVO X MR.

[Ferrer]

so jag pulled out, saying that they didnt feel that their brakes were up to the task of being pummeled for 5 laps on a track. it's now going to be an EVO X MR.
Your 280bhp version?

It's going to bite the dust very badly against a 560bhp super saloon....

[cmcpokey]

Your 280bhp version?

It's going to bite the dust very badly against a 560bhp super saloon....

i am afraid i agree with you albert. i just dont see a way to make up for the serious hp differential, and it seems to be a power circuit for the most part as well. here is a side by side for the cars:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_Evo_CTS-V.jpg

and for the write up to go along with the chart: Cadillac CTS-V Vs Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR: By The Numbers - Jalopnik Vs GM - Jalopnik (http://jalopnik.com/5391942/cadillac-cts+v-vs-mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-mr-by-the-numbers)

[henk4]

So this will end up with GM proudly announcing that nobody dared to take up the challenge, at the same time proving that the Caddy is the best sports sedan in the world.....hurrah

[NSXType-R]

So this will end up with GM proudly announcing that nobody dared to take up the challenge, at the same time proving that the Caddy is the best sports sedan in the world.....hurrah

But it still wouldn't help if it didn't sell cars...?

So I still fail to see the help that they'd get in it. Sure, Cadillac will have brand recognition, but that doesn't help Chevy or Buick.

And with the poor economy in the first place, who would go for a Cadillac anyway?

[Ferrer]

But it still wouldn't help if it didn't sell cars...?

So I still fail to see the help that they'd get in it. Sure, Cadillac will have brand recognition, but that doesn't help Chevy or Buick.

And with the poor economy in the first place, who would go for a Cadillac anyway?
Adverstising one is better than advertising no brands at all. Even if the one chosen seems to be the most likely to get hit by a recession.
i am afraid i agree with you albert. i just dont see a way to make up for the serious hp differential, and it seems to be a power circuit for the most part as well. here is a side by side for the cars:
The only way I'd see the Evo winning is in a wet or damp very twisty hillclimb course. Not that GM is going to make their car look bad...

[RacingManiac]

like they say, any publicity is good publicity...

[cmcpokey]

Adverstising one is better than advertising no brands at all. Even if the one chosen seems to be the most likely to get hit by a recession.

The only way I'd see the Evo winning is in a wet or damp very twisty hillclimb course. Not that GM is going to make their car look bad...

funny you mention that. the track added a chicane in the middle of the long straight, helping the evos comparitive lack of hp. and it rained last night, so a very wet track. so the evo got a little bit of a break.

[cmcpokey]

Official Times: Mike Cooper, M3: 2:50:424; Jack Baruth, CTS-V: 2:51:153; Lawrence Ulrich, CTS-V: 2:53:157; Bob Lutz, CTS-V: 2:56:321; Mike Mainwald, M5: 3:05:348; Wes Siler, Evo: 3:08:126....then a bunch of others, including the Jag at 3:15 something...

[Runfromcheney]

Well, the numbers are in and the CTS-V came in on top. However, it is a bit of a hollow victory because the majority of cars competing were CTS-Vs. It appears that is has gone from "Can a competitor build a faster car than the CTS-V" to just a huge dick measuring competition between the drivers. Anyways, Autoblog has the lap times.

Cadillac CTS-V Challenge: Follow along on Twitter — Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/29/cadillac-cts-v-challenge-follow-along-on-twitter/#continued)

[Ferrer]

How competent is actually Michael Cooper? Because it's amazing that despite the 140bhp deficit the M3 can keep up with the CTS-V.

[RacingManiac]

I don't know, but I know John Hienricy is about as good as a non-professional comes.....

[cmcpokey]

apparently Cooper is an amateur in his own car. has done an advanced racing course and a few HPDEs. no experience in actual racing, and was complimented by johnny o'connel who was there watching along. this is according to jalopnik's facebook postings.

[Sledgehammer]

Dang, I was really hoping a Panamera would show up.

[Ferrer]

apparently Cooper is an amateur in his own car. has done an advanced racing course and a few HPDEs. no experience in actual racing, and was complimented by johnny o'connel who was there watching along. this is according to jalopnik's facebook postings.
So the BMW is really good as I take it?

[wwgkd]

So the BMW is really good as I take it?

That's what I've always heard. I saw another comparison like this done by ford and it turned out that the ability of the BMW to steer so precisely through the corners made up for a big power difference. And everyone who tests it, top gear included (remember the apple on the apex?) comment on it's precision, they all even use the same word.

[Ferrer]

That's what I've always heard. I saw another comparison like this done by ford and it turned out that the ability of the BMW to steer so precisely through the corners made up for a big power difference. And everyone who tests it, top gear included (remember the apple on the apex?) comment on it's precision, they all even use the same word.
Well, I should know. ;)

[RacingManiac]

apparently Cooper is an amateur in his own car. has done an advanced racing course and a few HPDEs. no experience in actual racing, and was complimented by johnny o'connel who was there watching along. this is according to jalopnik's facebook postings.

Which is why it was unlikely for anyone but Hienricy+CTS-V combo to win....multiple SCCA national championships(11 according Wiki), development engineers for GM's performance cars for years...unless you have the same caliber of driver+car combo most are SOL....its not as if they'll stick him in other cars....which would make a comparison much more valid...

[cmcpokey]

After my laps (I was a passenger, btw), I spoke to Michael Cooper, the winning M3 driver. He had just gotten out of a CTS-V himself...and said something like "I could probably find another 3 seconds in that car [the CTS] vs. my M3. The brakes are amazing."

So it wasnt as clear cut as it seems like it was. this guy just seems like he has some natural talent. it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared against O'Connell

[Kitdy]

Here's the full results:

John Heinricy in CTS-V: 2:46:560
Aaron Link in CTS-V: 2:48:902
Brian Redman in CTS-V: 2:49:596
Michael Cooper in BMW M3: 2:50:424
Jack Baruth in CTS-V: 2:51:153
Lawrence Ulrich in CTS-V: 2:53:157
Bob Lutz in CTS-V: 2:56:321
Michael Mainwald in BMW M5: 3:05:398
Wes Siler in Mitsubishi Evo: 3:08:126
Chris Fairman in CTS-V: 3:14:292
Archan Basu in Jaguar XF: 3:15:670
Tom Loder in Audi RS4: 3:15:702

Kudos to that Cooper guy - very impressive work from him.

It would have been nice to have seen a Panamera and C63 in the mix too though... Or maybe an RS6?

[wwgkd]

Here's the full results:



Kudos to that Cooper guy - very impressive work from him.

It would have been nice to have seen a Panamera and C63 in the mix too though... Or maybe an RS6?

Would have been nice for comparison's sake, but with mercedes afraid to play I doubt porsche would have come out either unless they were pretty sure of a good showing from their car. They have been hyping the heck out of it as "the worlds first 4 door sports car," so if they got beat by a caddy in someone elses test it would be kind of a blow to their ego. And the Audi would fail.

What impresses me most is bob lutz's time. I was expecting a little more failure from him.

[cmcpokey]

"the worlds first 4 door sports car,"

nissan would beg to differ:

http://everydaydrivertv.com/wp-content/reloads/Maxima-4DSC.jpg

[wwgkd]

nissan would beg to differ:



Yeah, I kind of had to stop and wonder at their slogan. It's certainly not the first car to be billed as that, nor is it the first in it's class. And I would always argue with the concept of a 4 door "sports car" as opposed to a "sporty car."

[Ferrer]

Yeah, I kind of had to stop and wonder at their slogan. It's certainly not the first car to be billed as that, nor is it the first in it's class. And I would always argue with the concept of a 4 door "sports car" as opposed to a "sporty car."
They are what we call them sports saloons, and Alfa Romeo, Jaguar and BMW have been making them since the 50's and 60's, so all fail to Porsche and Nissan.

[culver]

They are what we call them sports saloons, and Alfa Romeo, Jaguar and BMW have been making them since the 50's and 60's, so all fail to Porsche and Nissan.

Not to be picky but did BMW have any in the 1950s? I don't really remember much of BMW's stuff before the 1970s as they were just about non-existent in the US at the time.

[henk4]

Not to be picky but did BMW have any in the 1950s? I don't really remember much of BMW's stuff before the 1970s as they were just about non-existent in the US at the time.
The 1950 BMW car range consisted of the Isetta, the 600, and the 502 Barockengel sedans. Hardly sporty sedans. (there were also the 503/507 luxury GT and Sport model)
The 1500 (the Godmother of all current BMW sedans) was presented in 1961 and entered production late 1962.

[Ferrer]

Not to be picky but did BMW have any in the 1950s? I don't really remember much of BMW's stuff before the 1970s as they were just about non-existent in the US at the time.
That's why I put 50's and 60's. The 50's were dominated by Jags.

[G35COUPE]

I am not surprised by the M3s performance. As i have always said, on a track, horsepower isn't everything. Handling is king.
I know because i have whooped Dodge Charger's R/Ts and Ford Mustang GTs on my secret track. I have at least 10 - 50 horsepower deficit with these cars.

[f6fhellcat13]

I am not surprised by the M3s performance. As i have always said, on a track, horsepower isn't everything. Handling is king.
I know because i have whooped Dodge Charger's R/Ts and Ford Mustang GTs on my secret track. I have at least 10 - 50 horsepower deficit with these cars.

So long-suffering Brendon doesn't have to:
Where/what is this 'secret track'? Does it exist in the physical realm or the mental one?

[LeonOfTheDead]

It's either unreal or the streets around his place.
I'd prefer it to be the first.

[cargirl1990]

I'm liking this.

[cmcpokey]

So long-suffering Brendon doesn't have to:
Where/what is this 'secret track'? Does it exist in the physical realm or the mental one?

This.

[G35COUPE]

So long-suffering Brendon doesn't have to:
Where/what is this 'secret track'? Does it exist in the physical realm or the mental one?

LOL! Its a physical pseudo track where i go to feel like Michael Schumacher for just 20 minutes once a week.

[LeonOfTheDead]

what do you mean by "physical pseudo track"?!

Like those from Wipeout Fusion :D?

[G35COUPE]

what do you mean by "physical pseudo track"?!

Like those from Wipeout Fusion :D?

In my mind, it feels that way. :) Many thanks to the 350Z and G-35 Coupe---most fun cars to drive, all day long.

[cmcpokey]

In my mind, it feels that way. :) Many thanks to the 350Z and G-35 Coupe---most fun cars to drive, all day long.

just give us a map, or lat-long, so we can what you're talking about. we'll leave you alone after that.

(except for the whole pics of the car of course)