BMW E30 M3 Evo III vs. Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5 16v

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by superwaxer

Rofl lmfao!! What does that have to do with them being concidered as equals?

Everything. Racing success is very important for a car's recognition.

Let's face it. Nobody remembers the Mazda 323 4WD. But everyone knows about the Delta HF Integrale.

[Rockefella]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Everything. Racing success is very important for a car's recognition.

Let's face it. Nobody remembers the Mazda 323 4WD. But everyone knows about the Delta HF Integrale.

I would say somewhat rather than everything. Renault may have beat Ferrari in Formula 1 two years ago, but does that mean they make better sportscars? No. Obviously that example is inflated but track-racing specials from the homologated versions are similarly, 'inflated' versions of the cars.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Rockefella

I would say somewhat rather than everything. Renault may have beat Ferrari in Formula 1 two years ago, but does that mean they make better sportscars? No. Obviously that example is inflated but track-racing specials from the homologated versions are similarly, 'inflated' versions of the cars.

But people can relate to them therefore making recognition much easier. That's why the Impreza is so well known for such a small company.

And it was the problem companies like Lancia or Renault in the 70's when they rallied the Stratos and Alpines respectively. The problem was they didn't share anything visually with the cars on the showrooms so the success was hard to exploit for the marketing temas of each manufacturer.

So what Fiat decided to do was replace the Stratos supercar with a mundane 131 saloon.

[superwaxer]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Everything. Racing success is very important for a car's recognition.

Let's face it. Nobody remembers the Mazda 323 4WD. But everyone knows about the Delta HF Integrale.

No its got nothing to do with it! There is a huge difference between a production car and a race car.

Take the Australian V8 Supercars for example. The production Fords and the production Holdens have very different qualities and capabilities on the road. However, the V8 Supercars, or racecars, are equal in almost any form. They all share similar weight, power, brakes, rigidity, suspension characteristics etc.

Im not gonna buy the Holden instead of the Ford because Holden won Bathurst or something. I will individually test drive each of the standard production vehicles and base my decision on that.

The same goes for the 190E and the M3. Both great cars on the track (in race form), but very different in street form. And as I said before, unless Im incapable of reading, this thread is about the standard production cars, not about how they performed on the racetrack.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by superwaxer

No its got nothing to do with it! There is a huge difference between a production car and a race car.

Take the Australian V8 Supercars for example. The production Fords and the production Holdens have very different qualities and capabilities on the road. However, the V8 Supercars, or racecars, are equal in almost any form. They all share similar weight, power, brakes, rigidity, suspension characteristics etc.

Im not gonna buy the Holden instead of the Ford because Holden won Bathurst or something. I will individually test drive each of the standard production vehicles and base my decision on that.

The same goes for the 190E and the M3. Both great cars on the track (in race form), but very different in street form. And as I said before, unless Im incapable of reading, this thread is about the standard production cars, not about how they performed on the racetrack.

I agree with all of that.

Problem is people don't care about it generally. Racing pedigree is important, especially with old cars, when it comes to image and reputation. There are other reasons like the fact that the M3 E30 was the start of a line while the 190E Cosworth wasn't (its successor technically the C36 AMG had little to do with it, even a different tuner and name).

As a result of all of that while the M3 may not be any better objectively than the Merc in people's minds it is. Which was my original point of why the road cars weren't being considered as equals today.

[Kooper]

Anyone have any specs on how which car performed in their respective tenures in DTM? I've looked but I couldn't find a great deal.

I'm curious to know which one won more DTM races for the period they were entered. Doesn't have anything to do with this comparison though, just plain good old curiosity.

[F1sean16]

I really can't decide.....so BOTH!!!!!

[kingofthering]

Originally Posted by F1sean16

I really can't decide.....so BOTH!!!!!

About damn time somebody said that.

[Manolo.E30M3]

Hi people, i came across this discussion and just for this, i had to register to this site. Below you can read what i found. Enjoy.
Oh and see my name, no question i'm going for the M3. (Currently I'm driving a 325i E30. The M3 would be the next step for me.)
Like i said, enjoy the article.

SOURCE:
firstdayoftherestofmylife: 190e 2.5 16v vs E30 M3...


Sunday, June 14, 2009
190e 2.5 16v vs E30 M3...
i found this really awesome article about a shootout between a 190e 2.5 16v and an E30 M3.

the article is superbly written, if a tad old-school, which is the way imho..i don't do enough posts about cars, so heres one, excerpted from the 1988 September issue of Car Magazine. i know you can't see the pics, so click on it and it'll enlarge. ladies and gentlemen, from an era without automotive shows and/or crazy japanese turbocharged cars, enjoy.

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(From here you can first read the 5 page article from 1988)
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And that's the end of the article. the rivalry between these two great German marques continue however, with the later Evolution models which are mainly homologation specials, the E30 M3 Evo1, Evo2 and the E30 M3 Sports Evolution (S.E). In it's final culmination the E30 M3 S.E has 2.5 litres and was pushing 238 bhp at 7000 rpm.

And Mercedes Benz (then Daimler-Benz) countered with the 190E 2.5 16v Evolution (aka Evo1) which was pushing 195 bhp. after producing 502 of these, MB released the Evolution II model(my favourite car in the history of the world, pictured here), which was pushing 235 bhp.

of course, the improvements aren't just power hikes, from new electronics to revised aerodynamics, but it's too extensive for me to write here. you can get the information here

1990 Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5-16 Evolution II - Images, Specifications and Information
The BMW Club of Houston, Ltd..
Blast from the Past: BMW E30 M3 EVO vs Mercedes 190E 2.5 16v - Carscoop

the articles i got from Carscoop, i claim nothing, it is all theirs/his/hers. thx for letting me use the articles.

[ntstone]

love E30 very much ,love M3 forever