Godzilla (as they call it) Vs whatever it seems

[henk4]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

i think of the GTR as the object which spurs advancements in marques i actually care about

you mean by kicking their ass?

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Yes but even if the the GT-R follows a completely different approach from a Jag, the Nissan is a sportscar, I can't quite see the point of setting insanely fastest times in the Nurburgring.

The thing is I'm not a racing driver, nor do I have the talent of one, so I'd say lap times on a race track are pretty much meaningless for a road car so you won't be racing anyone or anything.

What I want in a road car is enjoyment. I don't care if I can shave 0.00001 of a second thanks to the GT-R's advanced four wheel drive system. We've seen the Nissan can do that, but can it do enjoyment? I'm not sure.

Therefore for this reason (and others), for me the Jag is the better car.

i agree. the GT-R is becoming more and more a sort of surgeon instruments, very precise without any room for errors. but such cars (like a 430/430 Scuderia and others) with the time passing, let the driver thinking he is not a fundamental part of the game. the car is good, no matter who is driving. for sure only a few people can push the car at those lap times, but it becomes like racing with a good esp turned on, no matter if you fail a break, it will recover the car trajectory and you won't have to be worry about the guard rail or the tire wall.
i think it's why the Porsche GT3 RS, even if it's not my favourite car, is a true sport car, it's analogical, it requires you all your attention and ability to let it go really fast. that is a sort of challenge, if you want to do it, on a race track, but it will still be very fast even if you are not pushing 110%. i'm figuring out that the GT-R will be fast, period. and so not so exiting, no so thrilling, a sort of videogame (see that silly monitor showing you parameters the average driver even doesn't know what they stand for, and also, why not standard analogical and more involving instruments?) in which the only purpose is the top time.
probably the GT-R is comfortable enough to drive in everyday traffic jam without suffering the noises or the hard set up or an irregular engine, but that's another bad point. i want that a supercar (so something more exotic) is also uncomfortable, i want it makes noise, to be hard and that even the more distracted driver has to notice it. while if we are talking about a more comfortable GT, like a Jag, it is not comfy and silent in everyday drive, it is a sofa, it's cosy, and since i would be relaxing, i even don't care other drivers to notice my car. a thing that they do, btw. the simply fact that a car is usable in every situation makes it a little less desirable, like if it was too much easy to choose it and drive it. like "ballerina shoes" for girls. it's the more immediate shoes to use to go out and being nice, more comfortable than with high heels, but it's not a good looking shoes and it's the most common one. they both are idiot/situation-proof and not enough exclusive.

[Ingolstadt]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

i think of the GTR as the object which spurs advancements in marques i actually care about

You got me vote for good post.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Ingolstadt

True, but 'Enjoyment' will forever be impossible to gauge quantitatively. Putting lap records of nurburgring is at least 1 million times more meaningful than posting 0-60 figures, 60-0 figures, 1/4 figures, cd figures and whatever power to weight ratio stuffs, because for a sportscar, the main thing is the ability of the car itself, hence to have a common ground, and to have the track record listed for comparison, all bhp figures or torque and all the above mentioned would be rendered meaningless, or to say, it's actually a summary of all the figures to showcase the performance of the car.

I for one, do accept the establishment of using a common race track to shout about a car's potential capability. The GTR is a very good example, on papers, it might have loose out to alot of other cars, average buyers won't be able to even slightly guess their car, under such affordable cost, can actually go faster around a track compared to the likes of porsche or a ferrari 430... that. totally makes more sense to me than out right torque, hp figures.

I too, would like an enjoyable drive more thanone that could terrorize porsches on the nurburgring ... but it would be almost impossible for nissan to sell me based on an Enjoyable index figure.

You do have a point. A lap time on a race track can be an indicator of the cars capabilities, much like the top speed, 0-60 times or braking distances. And I admit that those also play a part when I'm looking at a car.

But what I don't understand is the obssesion with lap times. I don't know, it's a bit like the Veyron and the 400km/h top speed. It's amazing that it can achieve it but when it becomes the "attribute" of the car it's a bit like they're missing the point. Much like the GT-R and it's amazing 'ring times.

[NSXType-R]

On a sidenote, has the Veyron ever lapped the Nurburgring? That would be an interesting lap time to see.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

On a sidenote, has the Veyron ever lapped the Nurburgring? That would be an interesting lap time to see.

the veyron lapping the ring...i never heard about something similar. i never heard about any kind of lap time to say the truth. imo, there's something behind this, a sort of prohibition from VW to its clients. like Ferrari that AFAIK prohibited to the customers to resell the car for two years from the original purchase. top gear had to "rent" the Enzo for their test drive, and Maserati decided to do an official test drive of the MC12 only after one british folk who bought it, Frank something, let some british magazine to test his car, but only for a few miles and at low speed.
i'm interested too in a Veyron lap time, even on another track, it would bring a better prospective on its performance.

[Badsight]

Gordon Murray , the designer of the Mclaren F1 praised the Veyron as a technical achievement

& rubbished it as a nasty car to drive (user unfreindly)

good at accellerating . good at braking . average at going fast down a road

its a car that appeals to HP meatheads . much like the GTR appeals to technical fans

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Badsight

Gordon Murray , the designer of the Mclaren F1 praised the Veyron as a technical achievement

& rubbished it as a nasty car to drive (user unfreindly)

good at accellerating . good at braking . average at going fast down a road

i have an article from R&T in which he didn't exactly praise the Veyron.

Originally Posted by Badsight

its a car that appeals to HP meatheads . much like the GTR appeals to technical fans

i don't think so, i am (also) a technical person -> fan, and i am not so interested in the GT-R.

[NSXType-R]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

i have an article from R&T in which he didn't exactly praise the Veyron.

Although on Wikipedia (last time I read it) he took some of those comments back.

[nist7]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

in a private test in a small circuit in italy, Franciacorta, the lapped a bmw 320si with standard tires (which are already sportier than standard ones) with the same car but equipped with the slick tires of the WTCC cars. considering the road car is setted specifically for those "standard" tires so it wasn't tunned to fit slicks, they managed to cut the lap time by almost 10 seconds, on a track which is long something like 2,8 km. i am wondering what a semislick can cut from the time on the Nordshleife, almost 21 km long.
opinions?

Very interesting point.

If sticky tires can improve time by 10 seconds on just 2.8km, then 21.6km would cut time considerably.

But seeing that Nissan claims wet sections on the track on their 7:38 time, and seeing how long the 'Ring is, it may not be all that implausible to shave 10 seconds off. Had they used any stickier tires...I think it would've gained way too much time to be of any credibility at all.

Heck, there is a huge, and I mean HUGE internet war over the Nissan GT-R. There are people who believe that everything Nissan did is a lie and then there those who believe the GT-R is the Godzilla that will crush and revolutionize the world as we know it....

On a related note, I'm still waiting for the absolute street-legal car record of 6:55 set by the Radical SR8 to be bested by the Caparo T1

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by nist7

On a related note, I'm still waiting for the absolute street-legal car record of 6:55 set by the Radical SR8 to be bested by the Caparo T1

Yeah that interests me as well. The Caparo should be able to do away with it quite handily I would assume.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by nist7

Very interesting point.

If sticky tires can improve time by 10 seconds on just 2.8km, then 21.6km would cut time considerably.

But seeing that Nissan claims wet sections on the track on their 7:38 time, and seeing how long the 'Ring is, it may not be all that implausible to shave 10 seconds off. Had they used any stickier tires...I think it would've gained way too much time to be of any credibility at all.

Heck, there is a huge, and I mean HUGE internet war over the Nissan GT-R. There are people who believe that everything Nissan did is a lie and then there those who believe the GT-R is the Godzilla that will crush and revolutionize the world as we know it....

On a related note, I'm still waiting for the absolute street-legal car record of 6:55 set by the Radical SR8 to be bested by the Caparo T1

Originally Posted by Kitdy

Yeah that interests me as well. The Caparo should be able to do away with it quite handily I would assume.

Nissan used Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tires instead of the standard Bridgestone Potenza RE070R (source:La Nissan GT-R e il 'Ring: ecco il video dell'impresa )

I believe both the Caparo and the Radical aren't considered for the same contest as they both can't take speed bumpers. Despite they street legal nature of a car, usually the speed bumpers are used as a method to decide if a car is to be considered a only-track-day car or a standard car. the sound emissions are also a parameter in some tracks, as the 'ring IIRC.

[NSXType-R]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Nissan used Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tires instead of the standard Bridgestone Potenza RE070R (source:La Nissan GT-R e il 'Ring: ecco il video dell'impresa )

I believe both the Caparo and the Radical aren't considered for the same contest as they both can't take speed bumpers. Despite they street legal nature of a car, usually the speed bumpers are used as a method to decide if a car is to be considered a only-track-day car or a standard car. the sound emissions are also a parameter in some tracks, as the 'ring IIRC.

But is the 'ring considered a public road or a track? If it is a track, then noise shouldn't be a problem at all.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

But is the 'ring considered a public road or a track? If it is a track, then noise shouldn't be a problem at all.

it's a public road. but there're track that require a maximum noise level, because of the houses around the track and other reasons. The F1 Monza Grand Prix was going to be deleted for such a reason.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Nissan used Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tires instead of the standard Bridgestone Potenza RE070R

Those Dunlops don't look as though they'd be a massive amount more grippier than the Bridgies.

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

I believe both the Caparo and the Radical aren't considered for the same contest as they both can't take speed bumpers. Despite they street legal nature of a car, usually the speed bumpers are used as a method to decide if a car is to be considered a only-track-day car or a standard car. the sound emissions are also a parameter in some tracks, as the 'ring IIRC.

Do the Caparo or Radical come with height-adjustable suspension? But speed bumps are a piss-poor reason to say it's not a road car, especially when you consider the giant list of other problems the 2 cars have on the road.