Le Mans VS F1

[jugga]

They all have similar budgets i find it amazing they can have that performance with that reliability!! le mans cars are definately more rugged they would surely beat an f1 car on street/ road circuit but on a clean track F1 would win surely. all very close.

surely Jap Super Gt should be thrown in too. but then they are limited on hp. very expensive and high quality cars that are said to lap not far off F1 times.

surely F1 cars have worse aero due to being open-wheeled?

[Rockefella]

Originally Posted by jugga

surely F1 cars have worse aero due to being open-wheeled?

Not necessarily.

[ErWin76]

Just saw interview of Jacques Villeneuve and he said that Peugeot handles like single seater and the pace is similar to F1 car from late 90's.

[#1 Mustang Fan]

Originally Posted by jugga

surely F1 cars have worse aero due to being open-wheeled?

Not likely, It'll cost more weight that its worth covering the wheels even if it is to your advantage in terms of aerodynamics.

[Wouter Melissen]

Originally Posted by #1 Mustang Fan

Not likely, It'll cost more weight that its worth covering the wheels even if it is to your advantage in terms of aerodynamics.

Spinning wheels create an enormous amount of drag, so the few kg added for a closed wheel car are well worth it.

[#1 Mustang Fan]

Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen

Spinning wheels create an enormous amount of drag, so the few kg added for a closed wheel car are well worth it.

Why don't they have the covered wheels then?

[Ingolstadt]

Originally Posted by #1 Mustang Fan

Why don't they have the covered wheels then?

Cos in F1, the down force, performance, choice of tyres were all governed by the Marketing Department i guess....

[092326001]

LeMans is epic racing
i dont like F1 as much because it doesn't seem as competitive for me at least

i wonder why most of the LMP cars are open now is their any advantage? i heard that the restrictions said the closed car had to have skinier tires than the open ones, would there be any reason for this?

[RacingManiac]

F1 car is quite a bit faster though.....the aero grip vs mass argument works hugely in its favor.....

The most interesting thing though is how close Super GT car is to a LMP car.....consider how fast the GT500 car now can do Suzuka(1:47-1:48-ish) vs the last modern LMP car there(R8 2002, 1:49, without the factory team or driver obviously).....

[RacingManiac]

Originally Posted by 092326001

LeMans is epic racing
i dont like F1 as much because it doesn't seem as competitive for me at least

i wonder why most of the LMP cars are open now is their any advantage? i heard that the restrictions said the closed car had to have skinier tires than the open ones, would there be any reason for this?

That restriction was before the current LMP1 rule, when there were the LM-GTP car(closed) vs LMP900(open) car. There is a trade-off obviously. Closed-top being more complex in chassis built(need for a door, roll-over structure), but better for aero efficiency(but not frontal area), and kinda even on CofG despite what one might think. The Racecar Engineering article on Dome S102 was quite enlightening in that respect, as the Dome guy thinks that since there is a strict roll-structure rule for the front roll hoop(the double hump infront of the driver you see on Audi et al), there is a chance for closed car to actually be better for CG because their roof is the primary roll structure, the front can be made lower and the driver can sit lower.

Other issue are more to do with procedural/logistical in the race. Driver change is harder in a closed car, so you tend to loose time. there....they tend to fog and mist in wet weather and can run hotter for the driver aswell...so lots of trade-off needs to be worked out before deciding what to use....

[f6fhellcat13]

Not likely, It'll cost more weight that its worth covering the wheels even if it is to your advantage in terms of aerodynamics.

the coefficient of drag for an F1 car can be from .7 - 1.1 Whereas for you average road car it's probably in the .30's (says Wikipedia) This is because F1 cars need a lotta downforce and also the need a bunch of air to cool the engine, brakes, etc... LMP1 cars are in the .20's cause of their covered wheels and different design pupose. On a side note, Le Mans endurance racing gave us one of the best looking cars of al tim the Ferrari P3/4:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/1680-8.jpg

[RacingManiac]

I doubt LMP cars are in the ~ .2 CodD....the wings and wide tires and the wide bodywork don't contribute to low CofD....

What LMP1 car compares much more favorably to F1 are lift(or downforce, which is negative lift) to drag ratio. Looking at the page here: Mulsanne's Corner: Race Car Aerodynamics Database

A modern LMP900 car(use Bentley as an example), the L/D is around 3.7:1. Which means for every 3.7 lb of downforce it produces 1 lb of drag. The current LMP1(like the Peugeot 908) car probably is better because they do allow the use of a tunnel compare to the spec which Bentley runs under, along with a smaller wing(though the wing with short chord will be less efficient). I would venture to guess above 4:1 judging the speed potential of the current car being able to run above 215mph while still running laptimes sub 3:20s around La sarthe. A typical F1 car pending on configuration probably varies from low 1.x:1 to high 2.x:1. Whant that means is that for the same amount of downforce F1 car will produce more drag compare to Le Mans car....

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

depends what track and what era, you'd think.

i don't see formula 1 cars doing that well on the nurburgring due to the bumps etc?

I read (yes, on Wikipedia) that the BMW guys calculated that Nick coulda tan well into the 5 minute mark on a hot lap on the Nordschleife.

[fpv_gtho]

Since 2006, F1 cars apparently havent been so typically blunt nosed with their drag as compared to the V10 days, although surely an LMP car woud still compare more favourably considering the stronger desire for them to be economical when racing.

[togos452]

Le Mans-style racing: almost the last bastion of innovation?

Ultimatecarpage.com - Powered by knowledge, driven by passion

"So I'm skeptical of what we see today, namely the final assault of the one-design philosophy on the top ranks of the sport. In Formula 1, the FIA's attempt to introduce stricter rules to cut costs and encourage green technologies at the same time exhibits some of the typical pitfalls of top-down government policy-making. Champ Car has officially gone down the 'spec' car route, and the IRL has done so unofficially. NASCAR's effort to update its technology with the Car of Tomorrow looks likely to introduce even greater technical uniformity.

Le Mans-style sports car racing has emerged as almost the last bastion of innovation, with the success of Audi's turbo diesel in last year's 24 Hours drawing Peugeot back to Le Mans [Peugeot officially announced a return to Le Mans in June, 2005], and several carmakers exploring hybrid-powered projects. It's no accident that this type of racing has attracted more new factory teams than any other over the last couple of seasons."

Daniel Partel's words from February, 2007 (one year before Champ Car - IRL merger)

American Le Mans Series :: World Class

note: non-spec indy cars announced for 2011 IndyCar Series