Ferrari vs. Porsche

[LeonOfTheDead]

CdocZ, just one thing: it's not that the 911 is immediately recognizable as a Porsche, but rather Porsche itself is identified with the 911. like if they were the same organism, at the point that in this thread it seems almost the only thing Porsche had to offer, which is not the case, or something that can hide all the other cars. even if, apart from the name and the overall look, we are still talking about very different cars.
btw, this point you found very satisfying, owning a car and exactly knowing what it is, what it means, is at the same time seen as one of the bad part of the Porsche image.
personally I can appreciate their abilities and capabilities to revive a product for 40 years, going to trough small and big revolutions, without eroding the idea the car is always your beloved 911. at the same time, it raises a sort of egocentric scheme, the 911 disease as someone else said.
From this aspect, I prefer a more dynamic company as Lamborghini (from the beginning to the Diablo) even if being smaller but still focused on mainly one car at time, while Ferrari is again on a different scale, always covering different niches but in lower figures.

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I have to agree completely with that.

And I reckon I didn't have high hopes when I read the thread title...

My faith in UCP was not misgiven.

[NicFromLA]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I will try my best to explain myself.

And yet, there's a fundamental difference. Porsche's sportscars are some of the purest of the mass produced ones. They still use manual gearboxes and they don't have five way traction controls. And still retain the classic shapes which have matured nicely over the last 60 years. They are arguably trapped by the 911 legend, but at the same time that has given them stability.

And that doesn't happen at all with Ferrari. Yes they haven't made any psuedo-off roader but what they have done is put a little bit of Cayenne in all of their cars, in a way. Ferraris today are better than ever. They are faster, handle better, more efficient. They can even be considered reliable nowadays. However there's been something that has been lost in the process. Call it styling, call it passion, call it soul, call it what you want.

First the gearbox issue: you can still order every Ferrari with a manual gearbox AND if you ask really nicely they'll build you one without synchros. Porsche will not build you a roadcar without synchros and (having owned two 996s) I promise you they're not fun to double-clutch (I also think that with the rise of PDK, manual in various versions of the 911 will die off). Plus on any current Ferrari you can set the traction control to Off and leave it there for as long as you own the car. On the Porsche you have to turn sport mode On and turn the traction control Off every time you start the car.

The biggest problem with Ferraris today is that it's impossible to find enough road for them. They're so fast (and so big) that if you're playing with the car you can run out of road VERY quickly and with the speeds the cars are capable of there's no room for small errors: you're either fine or you've got a big problem. They're basically like rambunctious kids - but if you take your eye off them they can get into trouble.

I had two 996s (2 and a 4) and I can remember maybe one or two great drives in each of them and I have a family member who has a 997 Turbo and never drives it. They're like very attractive, bitchy girls: fun when they're in just the right mood, but mostly very nice to look at and cold to be around.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by NicFromLA

First the gearbox issue: you can still order every Ferrari with a manual gearbox AND if you ask really nicely they'll build you one without synchros. Porsche will not build you a roadcar without synchros and (having owned two 996s) I promise you they're not fun to double-clutch (I also think that with the rise of PDK, manual in various versions of the 911 will die off). Plus on any current Ferrari you can set the traction control to Off and leave it there for as long as you own the car. On the Porsche you have to turn sport mode On and turn the traction control Off every time you start the car.

completely agree on that, as I already posted some posts before.
but I didn't know the synchros story, I would like to knwo more.
first of all, if you have to be a special customer or something, and then, would it, seriously, void or change the warranty? it's available on all their cars and markets? the gearbox can sustain that, meaning not the lack of synchros but a driver using everyday a car without them so probably failing maybe too many gear changes.
and other stuff like that.

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by NicFromLA

First the gearbox issue: you can still order every Ferrari with a manual gearbox AND if you ask really nicely they'll build you one without synchros. Porsche will not build you a roadcar without synchros and (having owned two 996s) I promise you they're not fun to double-clutch (I also think that with the rise of PDK, manual in various versions of the 911 will die off). Plus on any current Ferrari you can set the traction control to Off and leave it there for as long as you own the car. On the Porsche you have to turn sport mode On and turn the traction control Off every time you start the car.

The biggest problem with Ferraris today is that it's impossible to find enough road for them. They're so fast (and so big) that if you're playing with the car you can run out of road VERY quickly and with the speeds the cars are capable of there's no room for small errors: you're either fine or you've got a big problem. They're basically like rambunctious kids - but if you take your eye off them they can get into trouble.

I had two 996s (2 and a 4) and I can remember maybe one or two great drives in each of them and I have a family member who has a 997 Turbo and never drives it. They're like very attractive, bitchy girls: fun when they're in just the right mood, but mostly very nice to look at and cold to be around.

does the GT3 models come with electronic aids? i never looked (never really come even close to pushing it's limits)

[cmcpokey]

the traction control thing is something i forgot to talk about earlier. having driven a racetrack in the rain, i am not fundamentally opposed to TC. it helped me a lot, but also held me back on a few occasions. the 5 way TC of the Mannetino would have been perfect. dial it back enough so that it gives me some leeway, while still keeping my wheels pointed in the right direction. so i think that bit of tech is actually pretty brilliant.

[NicFromLA]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

completely agree on that, as I already posted some posts before.
but I didn't know the synchros story, I would like to knwo more.
first of all, if you have to be a special customer or something, and then, would it, seriously, void or change the warranty? it's available on all their cars and markets? the gearbox can sustain that, meaning not the lack of synchros but a driver using everyday a car without them so probably failing maybe too many gear changes.
and other stuff like that.

I know that some customers have requested it and Ferrari's general rule is that as long as it doesn't violate the laws of physics or laws of the market where the car is being sold, they'll do whatever the customer wants. As long as the customer is willing to pay the premium.

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by NicFromLA

I know that some customers have requested it and Ferrari's general rule is that as long as it doesn't violate the laws of physics or laws of the market where the car is being sold, they'll do whatever the customer wants. As long as the customer is willing to pay the premium.

The Enzo, F50, and F40 last time I checked still violate the laws of physics, and that's not even talking about the 333 SP or their F1 cars.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by NicFromLA

First the gearbox issue: you can still order every Ferrari with a manual gearbox AND if you ask really nicely they'll build you one without synchros. Porsche will not build you a roadcar without synchros and (having owned two 996s) I promise you they're not fun to double-clutch (I also think that with the rise of PDK, manual in various versions of the 911 will die off). Plus on any current Ferrari you can set the traction control to Off and leave it there for as long as you own the car. On the Porsche you have to turn sport mode On and turn the traction control Off every time you start the car.

The biggest problem with Ferraris today is that it's impossible to find enough road for them. They're so fast (and so big) that if you're playing with the car you can run out of road VERY quickly and with the speeds the cars are capable of there's no room for small errors: you're either fine or you've got a big problem. They're basically like rambunctious kids - but if you take your eye off them they can get into trouble.

I had two 996s (2 and a 4) and I can remember maybe one or two great drives in each of them and I have a family member who has a 997 Turbo and never drives it. They're like very attractive, bitchy girls: fun when they're in just the right mood, but mostly very nice to look at and cold to be around.

Not denying that. But even so it's annoying that (officially) the most driver oriented Ferraris are still only available with flappy paddle gearboxes, while the Porsches aren't.

As for the size, I agree with you completely. And it's interesting that somewhat Porsche have managed to keep their sportscars relatively small.

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

As for the size, I agree with you completely. And it's interesting that somewhat Porsche have managed to keep their sportscars relatively small.

there still feels (don't know if the exact dimensions are all that different) to be a large size difference between my 911SC and the GT3 - i'm sure there are sort of visual tricks that make it seem more so, though, like how lwo down the seats are set, shape of the cockpit/glasshouse etc.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Not denying that. But even so it's annoying that (officially) the most driver oriented Ferraris are still only available with flappy paddle gearboxes, while the Porsches aren't.

As for the size, I agree with you completely. And it's interesting that somewhat Porsche have managed to keep their sportscars relatively small.

it could be said Porsche didn't have a good electro actuated gearbox, and so sticked with the manual, which is true also. maybe they just decided to focus on the dsg, trough VW, instead of developing decent softwares for the eletrco actuated ones.
also, the F430 is not very big, and it's the only model I would compare to the 911.

[roosterjuicer]

personally I've always considered ferrari to be in a different league than porsche and never really took to comparing them.

its kinda like if you cant be a cheerleader, you join the dance team...if you cant afford a ferrari, you get a porsche. porsches straddle the line between "exotic" and "nice/high performance" car in the same way that corvettes do(before you jump down my throat, no i dont think vettes are on as high a prestige level as porsches are, but same ball park). When im driving around and i see a vette, or a porsche i never stop the conversation to say "check out that car" but if i see a ferrari I almost always say "check out that ferrari" and everyone goes "ooo-ahhh" and the like.

i guess to me, porsches dont elicit the same "ooo's and ahhs" like ferraris do and I think that speaks a lot about the comparison on a non performance level.

[Rockefella]

Originally Posted by roosterjuicer

personally I've always considered ferrari to be in a different league than porsche and never really took to comparing them.

its kinda like if you cant be a cheerleader, you join the dance team...if you cant afford a ferrari, you get a porsche. porsches straddle the line between "exotic" and "nice/high performance" car in the same way that corvettes do(before you jump down my throat, no i dont think vettes are on as high a prestige level as porsches are, but same ball park). When im driving around and i see a vette, or a porsche i never stop the conversation to say "check out that car" but if i see a ferrari I almost always say "check out that ferrari" and everyone goes "ooo-ahhh" and the like.

i guess to me, porsches dont elicit the same "ooo's and ahhs" like ferraris do and I think that speaks a lot about the comparison on a non performance level.

Agreed.

[RUF917LH]

[QUOTE=roosterjuicer;866625]personally I've always considered ferrari to be in a different league than porsche
QUOTE]
If this is indeed the case then how do you account the thorough trouncing of the 512 by 917? Or this years GT3 RSR prevaling over the F430. How about C.H. Pozzis miserable performance in a Ferrari. Or the Carrera GT's superior dynamics over the Enzo. The 959 excelling in all surfaces. Or Porsches undisputed superioroity in endurance racing wins. The dominance of the small Porsches against the larger Ferrari prototypes at the Targa (you recall the initial win there was a 1.5l 550 Spyder piloted by Umberto Maglioli against 3liter Ferraris) and the 908 beating the Ferraris on several occasions. The only reason Porsche wasn't racing in top tier during this time was purely financial.
Granted Ferrari road cars are prettier and more exclusive. But you can't argue with laptimes.

[cmcpokey]

Originally Posted by RUF917LH

If this is indeed the case then how do you account the thorough trouncing of the 512 by 917? Or this years GT3 RSR prevaling over the F430. How about C.H. Pozzis miserable performance in a Ferrari. Or the Carrera GT's superior dynamics over the Enzo. The 959 excelling in all surfaces. Or Porsches undisputed superioroity in endurance racing wins. The dominance of the small Porsches against the larger Ferrari prototypes at the Targa (you recall the initial win there was a 1.5l 550 Spyder piloted by Umberto Maglioli against 3liter Ferraris) and the 908 beating the Ferraris on several occasions. The only reason Porsche wasn't racing in top tier during this time was purely financial.
Granted Ferrari road cars are prettier and more exclusive. But you can't argue with laptimes.

if you base your purchases on success on the track than i guess your decision is made. i personally don't. i think what rooster was saying is that damn near anyone can own a porsche these days. a ferrari is still reserved for those who are a couple legs up on the rest.