Mugen Civic Type R

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Sense isn't computed in hot hatches in first place.
You know there are FWD lovers who just dies for these things.
It's like a race car available, it's just as pointless GT3 RS perhaps, just less "cool" to the normal eye.
I don't mind them, and I'm not sure I would get one if I could. Not specifically these, just a too-hot hatch in general. They perhaps don't make sense, but either sportscars really do tbh.

I think hot hatches make a lot of sense. They are good drivers cars that at the same time are practical for the family man or woman who has children or elderly parents to carry around. This way you can have fun with a practical car.

However if I wanted the ultimate drive, why get stuck with the compromises a hot hatch has to have, since it's based on an econobox? A proper sportscar could offer a better driver because it's designed on purpose to do so, unlike a hot hatch. In that aspect they are far less pointless.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I think hot hatches make a lot of sense. They are good drivers cars that at the same time are practical for the family man or woman who has children or elderly parents to carry around. This way you can have fun with a practical car.

However if I wanted the ultimate drive, why get stuck with the compromises a hot hatch has to have, since it's based on an econobox? A proper sportscar could offer a better driver because it's designed on purpose to do so, unlike a hot hatch. In that aspect they are far less pointless.

Never talked about the ultimate driving.
It could well fit the enthusiast which enjoys fwd cars, just at an extreme level.
it's very personal, as much as an Abarth 500 SS may be too hard for my mother but comfortable enough for my girlfriend. So I may like a completely trade-off-less fwd rocket rather than a somehow average rwd 350Z, guessing they could cost the same.

Chasing the ultimate driving in the technical shape would only lead to a mid engined rwd lightweight car with a bit more power than what the tires can manage at the limit but a bit less of what the chassis can handle, which is quite boring as it would lead to a lot of cars being very similar if not the same iteration of the basic rule.

The ultimate drive is just the one you enjoy the most, maybe even with the family on a minivan, who knows.
It's just about personal opinion and semantics.

If this had 400 bhp then it would have been surely pointless. In this set up, despite being quite heavy on the eye, it's nothing technically stupid or inefficient, just different from the "ordinary" rwd coupe.
I doubt a lot of similarly powered rwd cars could be faster too.

[cargirl1990]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

that shouldn't be the Mugen, the standard Type R has 200-ish bhp.
Probably this and all the other Mugen won't be sold in Europe other than in the UK, if not because they have the steering wheel with a small yet fundamental issue.

im pretty sure that North Americans ( or Canadians for that matter ) don't have the Type-R. or a Mugen with 240bhp.

[clutch-monkey]

i think the wing is terrible; minus the wing, in proper championship white (it IS a type R after all), it would look a lot more acceptable, and i'd personally like it.
i still don't know if i'd drive one in public (maybe tint the windows) but it wouldn't be bad. it's just funky and japanese then, not pretentious and chavalicious.

[cargirl1990]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

i think the wing is terrible; minus the wing, in proper championship white (it IS a type R after all), it would look a lot more acceptable, and i'd personally like it.
i still don't know if i'd drive one in public (maybe tint the windows) but it wouldn't be bad. it's just funky and japanese then, not pretentious and chavalicious.

yeah, the wing is a little out there. what is with the Japanese and big wings anyways? im curious!

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Never talked about the ultimate driving.
It could well fit the enthusiast which enjoys fwd cars, just at an extreme level.
it's very personal, as much as an Abarth 500 SS may be too hard for my mother but comfortable enough for my girlfriend. So I may like a completely trade-off-less fwd rocket rather than a somehow average rwd 350Z, guessing they could cost the same.

Chasing the ultimate driving in the technical shape would only lead to a mid engined rwd lightweight car with a bit more power than what the tires can manage at the limit but a bit less of what the chassis can handle, which is quite boring as it would lead to a lot of cars being very similar if not the same iteration of the basic rule.

The ultimate drive is just the one you enjoy the most, maybe even with the family on a minivan, who knows.
It's just about personal opinion and semantics.

If this had 400 bhp then it would have been surely pointless. In this set up, despite being quite heavy on the eye, it's nothing technically stupid or inefficient, just different from the "ordinary" rwd coupe.
I doubt a lot of similarly powered rwd cars could be faster too.

You do bring up good points, and that many cars with different layouts and engines can be a lot fun. However out of all the layouts I've had the opportunity to drive, in general, the front engined rear wheel drive one is the one that is superior to me. Of course that's an opinion, but that's what we are here to discuss, aren't we?

As I said I like hot hatches, the good ones are brilliant. I also think that front wheel drive shouldn't automatically be discarded when you want to enjoy a good drive. Well balanced, well sorted front wheel drive cars can be a lot of fun down a proper twisty road. I'd gladly have a good one and pay for it, no problems at all.

The problems starts for me when these hot hatches become so focused they lose some of the qualities they used to have. You say they may be faster than some rear wheel drive sportscar, but in the real world that is meaningless to me. What I want is to enjoy the drive not set fast lap times. On that basis an FR layout offers you advantages than a FF can't have, no matter how optimised it is. Hot hatches work because they are cheap, simple and practical. I don't want to spend upwards of 40 thousand euros on what basically is a hotted up econobox, because I doubt it can give the same driving pleasure as an equivalent sportscar even if it's faster.

A normal Civic Type R makes much more sense to me because it's almost as good, but it's much cheaper, so there's no sportscar alternative. And therefore you don't need to make what could be argued would be unfair comparisons.

[clutch-monkey]

also, did they fix the rear suspension.

[DesmoRob]

So its got a tuned K20A motor in it still? The car doesn't look half bad. I wouldn't mind having one, and I imagine it would offer plenty of thrills. When I think of how much fun my POS '92 civic was, this thing must be the god of Vtec .

[clutch-monkey]

try an S2000

[DesmoRob]

Throw the two on a track. Which one is your money on?

[clutch-monkey]

S2000. guy in the civic can push it to the limit safer, but the guy in the S2000 is having more fun.

[DesmoRob]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

S2000. guy in the civic can push it to the limit safer, but the guy in the S2000 is having more fun.

That may very well be, but I can't see something even as nimble as the S2000 beat what is undoubtedly a car designed FOR the track. Plus, you've got chassis flex in the open top car. Not having read the specifications I'd say the weight in the Type R is slightly down on the S2000 due to not having the convertible, and on top of that it will be stiffer. They have equal power. It may come down to whoever can drive better.

[clutch-monkey]

the civic type R wieghs ~1300kg, a good 100kg more than the S2000 iirc.
plus being designed from the ground up as convertible and nothing but a convertible the rigidity on the S2k is fine. And the type R has a torsion bar rear suspension unlike previous gens.

plus i'd use that s2k in particular, it has an equaliser

[DesmoRob]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

plus i'd use that s2k in particular, it has an equaliser

Well I'll have the 360 spider then. It doesn't need an equalizur .

[clutch-monkey]

don't make get an NSX-R and really open up a can of vtak!