Ford Mondeo Titanium S

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

The Astra isn't doing well? I thought it was a decent car.

Apparently Saturn sales were down in Jan '08.

The Astra is a fine car, but not a class leader. And you range is a bit uninspiring.

[Clivey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Because you coudn't tell a good car even if you had it in front?

You bloody hypocrite!

In the Focus ST/XR5 thread, you're having a dig at me for making a joke about the same thing...!

Originally Posted by MRR

Oh come on!!

I think Albert was just joking - don't be offended by it. Even if there are a class of "stupid Americans" (rednecks and the like), I'm sure everybody else just ignores them and goes about a normal life anyway. I'm sure that if the new Mondeo were to be introduced in the US, it'd sell...

Originally Posted by MRR

I have a feeling if this was introduced in a showroom with a Fusion or a Taurus people would immediately recognize the Mondeo is a better car. I think a long time ago the Mondeo was in the US under a different name (before it was any good).

...correct: It was the Ford Contour. As I said, I think the new one would sell though because it's not only a very good car, but it addresses the main reason it didn't sell as the Contour before - size. The new Mondeo is only 1cm shorter than an Audi A6, which makes it even more confusing as to why Ford hasn't attempted to introduce it in North America yet - it could have a genuine "world car" on its hands this time.

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

At least we get cheap gas for the time being.

Yes, try to hold-on to that - it means that you can at least enjoy your cars without being demonically obsessed with MPG like most of us Brits (and other Europeans to a certain extent).

Originally Posted by Ferrer;

I think the problem is, a) they may be more expensive than equivalent american saloons or estates and b) not entirely suited Joe Public's needs. The orginal Mondeo (Contour), and it was a good car, already failed and the Astra doesn't seem to be doing much better.

Unfortunately our small world doesn't reflect entirely what's out there...

I see your point but I honestly don't think that's the case. It's the same situation as Ford with this Mondeo here - Ford are only looking back to what happened with the original Mondeo/Contour, and are afraid to back this one in the 'States for fear of another flop (despite this car being much better suited to the needs of the American public).

I think that the probable reason for customers not knowing how good the Saturn Astra is is that no-one knows what it is! - More promotion from GM, I reckon, could easily sort that out. I mean, no disrespect, but it's got to beat the Cobalt/Neon type cars.

The only reason I see left that Americans could see not to buy Euro-market cars is that the model ranges aren't expansive enough (the Astra is only available as a 1.8VVT, for example). This could also be sorted-out by greater backing from the manufacturer and would lead to gains all round.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Apparently Saturn sales were down in Jan '08.

The Astra is a fine car, but not a class leader.

I have to disagree. I had one for a while and the only "minus points" I could really find were:

- The diesel engine range (the 1.7CDTi engines need replacing)
- Visibility out of the rear window
- Lack of cubby-holes for things like SatNavs, iPods etc. (The glovebox is a decent size though and a front centre armrest with storage bin can now be bought as a dealer-fit option)

In fact, the reason I traded mine in for the C4 was more to do with the actual car I had (the model didn't suit my needs and the condition was awful) - I'd definitely consider another one.

IMO it's a definite class-leader - what do you consider to be at the top of the tree?

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Clivey

I see your point but I honestly don't think that's the case. It's the same situation as Ford with this Mondeo here - Ford are only looking back to what happened with the original Mondeo/Contour, and are afraid to back this one in the 'States for fear of another flop (despite this car being much better suited to the needs of the American public).

I think that the probable reason for customers not knowing how good the Saturn Astra is is that no-one knows what it is! - More promotion from GM, I reckon, could easily sort that out. I mean, no disrespect, but it's got to beat the Cobalt/Neon type cars.

The only reason I see left that Americans could see not to buy Euro-market cars is that the model ranges aren't expansive enough (the Astra is only available as a 1.8VVT, for example). This could also be sorted-out by greater backing from the manufacturer and would lead to gains all round.

GM has had some flop before and in fact in either directions. The Manta flopped there, the Sintra flopped here. Despite that GM probably choose to make this move (and Ford may eventually do the same with the Fiesta for instance) propbably becuase their situation is so desperate. They need anything that can save them. If that's the Astra then so be it.

The fact that it's unknown, if that's the problem, is GM's fault aline though. It's propblem that has afflicted many other good cars, like the Lancia Thesis. Pormotion is basic these days if you want to sell anything. However once known there should theoretically be no reason for it to flop. Interestingly I was reading an article about Starbucks this morning and there was the concept of latte which were american people who dig european things (simplifying). Perhaps though it's at the wrong price point?

You see premium European cars have succeeded largely in the American market. Like Starbicks, they are expensive compared to the competition. People want Volkswagen-made Audis not Ford-made Lincolns. However the Astra isn't a premium car and it's not presented like one either. It's badged as a Saturn. So it's an economy family car. And yet out of the Focus/Caliber/Cobalt/Astra group it is the most expensive. Actually it's $1,410 more expensive than the next one. So in a way it falls in a no mans land. And that's bad.

Originally Posted by Clivey

I have to disagree. I had one for a while and the only "minus points" I could really find were:

- The diesel engine range (the 1.7CDTi engines need replacing)
- Visibility out of the rear window
- Lack of cubby-holes for things like SatNavs, iPods etc. (The glovebox is a decent size though and a front centre armrest with storage bin can now be bought as a dealer-fit option)

In fact, the reason I traded mine in for the C4 was more to do with the actual car I had (the model didn't suit my needs and the condition was awful) - I'd definitely consider another one.

IMO it's a definite class-leader - what do you consider to be at the top of the tree?

It basically needs better petrol engines, which are being introduced, and an independent rear suspension. Other things are just nitpicking.

My class leader? Tricky question but probably still the Golf. Or the Focus if you are on a budget. Money no object, the 1-series is brilliant though.

[Clivey]

OK, an on-topic post from me:

This new diesel engine and specification changes for the new Mondeo look really, really good.

Some people may be surprised to hear me saying that of a Ford, but in reality I'm not biased against them - I just haven't liked most of their offerings of the last 20-or so years for one reason or another. It seems they're coming back though!

I haven't read the whole press-release (there's only so much advertising/publicity BS a person can take), what I'll do is have a look at the car when it appears on forecourts...but the 175-PS diesel is exactly what this car needed for the European market (I'd definitely consider it if I were looking at that class of car), and I'm hoping that more highly-tuned versions of this engine are released in the future (a probability as performance diesels now have a market).

Also, I'd love to see this engine in future PSA offerings (espcially the C4 is possible) - that may be what it takes to make me consider an "upgrade" in a few years' time.

OK, I have a confession: This isn't an entirely on-topic post! I have a random question to ask:

On the subject of US-market Euro cars, why are the "Mk5 GTi" and Rabbit GLi electronically limited to 130mph? They're using the same engines and transmissions as Euro-spec cars AFAIK.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Clivey

OK, an on-topic post from me:

This new diesel engine and specification changes for the new Mondeo look really, really good.

Some people may be surprised to hear me saying that of a Ford, but in reality I'm not biased against them - I just haven't liked most of their offerings of the last 20-or so years for one reason or another. It seems they're coming back though!

I haven't read the whole press-release (there's only so much advertising/publicity BS a person can take), what I'll do is have a look at the car when it appears on forecourts...but the 175-PS diesel is exactly what this car needed for the European market (I'd definitely consider it if I were looking at that class of car), and I'm hoping that more highly-tuned versions of this engine are released in the future (a probability as performance diesels now have a market).

Also, I'd love to see this engine in future PSA offerings (espcially the C4 is possible) - that may be what it takes to make me consider an "upgrade" in a few years' time.

Oh noes! You've gone on-topic!

It is a PSA engine. It's already available in the C5, C6, C8 and C-Crosser as well as equivalent Peugeot offerings and Mitsubishi (Outlander-4007) and Fiat/Lancia (Ulysse/Phedra-807) twins.

The engine itself is based in the latest joint development of PSA-Ford diesels. So far we had 1.6 and 2 litre fours, the 2.7 litre six and the 3.6 litre V8. And now Ford uses that 2.2.

I agree though, this in C-segment sized cars would be ace.

Originally Posted by Clivey

OK, I have a confession: This isn't an entirely on-topic post! I have a random question to ask:

On the subject of US-market Euro cars, why are the "Mk5 GTi" and Rabbit GLi electronically limited to 130mph? They're using the same engines and transmissions as Euro-spec cars AFAIK.

Aha, you've gone off-topic again.

Again you're missing the point. Not only Americans can't tell a good car but they can't drive either.

(2 smilies should grant this isn't confused with a serious answer )

On a serious note many cars sold in the US are limited and also most brands don't actually advertise the top speed of their cars, while all europeans do. I guess we have the need ofr speed or something...

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Oh noes! You've gone on-topic!

It is a PSA engine. It's already available in the C5, C6, C8 and C-Crosser as well as equivalent Peugeot offerings and Mitsubishi (Outlander-4007) and Fiat/Lancia (Ulysse/Phedra-807) twins.

The engine itself is based in the latest joint development of PSA-Ford diesels. So far we had 1.6 and 2 litre fours, the 2.7 litre six and the 3.6 litre V8. And now Ford uses that 2.2.

I agree though, this in C-segment sized cars would be ace.

Aha, you've gone off-topic again.

Again you're missing the point. Not only Americans can't tell a good car but they can't drive either.

(2 smilies should grant this isn't confused with a serious answer )

On a serious note many cars sold in the US are limited and also most brands don't actually advertise the top speed of their cars, while all europeans do. I guess we have the need ofr speed or something...

The 3.6L V8 is a diesel? What (car)s is/are it in?

I guess for whatever reason top speed isn't important to North Americans.

By the way, you have once again forgotten Canada and Mexico (I don't know what it's like in Mexico).

[Clivey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

It is a PSA engine. It's already available in the C5, C6, C8 and C-Crosser as well as equivalent Peugeot offerings and Mitsubishi (Outlander-4007) and Fiat/Lancia (Ulysse/Phedra-807) twins.

I know it's a PSA joint project; That's why I suggested it be transplanted into the C4, dumbass!

What I'd really like to see again are new-generation Maserati engines in Citroens!

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Aha, you've gone off-topic again.

Again you're missing the point. Not only Americans can't tell a good car but they can't drive either.

(2 smilies should grant this isn't confused with a serious answer )

On a serious note many cars sold in the US are limited and also most brands don't actually advertise the top speed of their cars, while all europeans do. I guess we have the need ofr speed or something...

Finally, some comedy around here that's not centred around "your Mum" jokes!!!

I guess my thoughts when I discovered those VWs were limited to 130mph were "What's the point, you don't get chance to use that kind of speed most of the time anyway." - it's exactly the same with the German cars (and others) that are limited to 155mph.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Kitdy

The 3.6L V8 is a diesel? What (car)s is/are it in?

I guess for whatever reason top speed isn't important to North Americans.

By the way, you have once again forgotten Canada and Mexico (I don't know what it's like in Mexico).

It's available in Range Rovers. It has 272bhp and 472ft-lb.

About Canada and Mexico I decided to leave them off on purpose since you and them have some cars that aren't offered in America.

[Clivey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

GM has had some flop before and in fact in either directions. The Manta flopped there, the Sintra flopped here. Despite that GM probably choose to make this move (and Ford may eventually do the same with the Fiesta for instance) propbably becuase their situation is so desperate. They need anything that can save them. If that's the Astra then so be it.

Well as I said, there's no reason it shouldn't work - the Mk1 Focus did quite well in the 'States judging by what I've read, and it's got to be better than most of the usual domestic boxes.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

The fact that it's unknown, if that's the problem, is GM's fault aline though. It's propblem that has afflicted many other good cars, like the Lancia Thesis. Pormotion is basic these days if you want to sell anything. However once known there should theoretically be no reason for it to flop. Interestingly I was reading an article about Starbucks this morning and there was the concept of latte which were american people who dig european things (simplifying). Perhaps though it's at the wrong price point?

That would maybe be a good marketing strategy, although whether GM is "savvy" enough to pull it off is another matter. Surely though traditional advertising would work just as well - whenever a new car (without a predecessor under the same name) is launched they have to do it anyway (e.g. Chrysler PT Cruiser, Pontiac Solstice etc.).

If they did want to pursue the "premium European" strategy, they need to expand the model range to include more luxury features and a greater engine range. It's amazing how much a nice set of wheels and some smatterings of chrome or carbon-fibre (on the grille etc.) make a difference to a car's looks.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

You see premium European cars have succeeded largely in the American market. Like Starbicks, they are expensive compared to the competition. People want Volkswagen-made Audis not Ford-made Lincolns. However the Astra isn't a premium car and it's not presented like one either. It's badged as a Saturn. So it's an economy family car. And yet out of the Focus/Caliber/Cobalt/Astra group it is the most expensive. Actually it's $1,410 more expensive than the next one. So in a way it falls in a no mans land. And that's bad.

Agreed - although the Astra is a better car than the US-market Focus/Caliber/Cobalt. The biggest problem is as you said, basically "bums on seats".

Originally Posted by Ferrer

It basically needs better petrol engines, which are being introduced, and an independent rear suspension. Other things are just nitpicking.

I'm very surprised they didn't introduce it with the 2.2 Ecotec as the "bread and butter" of the range to be honest. I know it's all about time and cost but there's no point in even launching the car if you're only going to do a half-arsed job.

Having driven both Astra and Euro 2006 Focus, the absence of independent rear suspension is almost completely unnoticeable in the Astra unless you're on a racetrack or a very wide, empty road where you can drive at ten tenths. - I'd even wager that on a tight, bumpy, unforgiving road, the Astra would be more agile than the Focus due to better bump absorbing (the Focus crashes about a fair bit). Both cars have roadholding that would shame even sports-cars from not too long ago.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

My class leader? Tricky question but probably still the Golf. Or the Focus if you are on a budget. Money no object, the 1-series is brilliant though.

I can understand the Golf being anyone's "top choice", but I disagree with anyone that says it's clear-cut. IMO the best car in C-segment depends on how much you have to spend and what engine/bodystyle you want.

I bought the C4 because IMO it was the best 55+mpg diesel for the price. If however I wanted something more "2.0-litre 150-ish BHP" (i.e. your car*), I'd probably have to spend a lot longer making a choice. That would include the 150ps 1.9CDTi Astra SRI, Golf GT-Sport, C4 2.0HDi (even though it's less powerful it makes-up or it with the rest of the package), and if I could afford them, the 1-series and Volvo C30.

* Although your car is a few BHP up on that because it's a damn good engine.

Back on-topic though: What's to stop the new Mondeo with the 2.5-litre engine being successful in the US?

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Clivey

I can understand the Golf being anyone's "top choice", but I disagree with anyone that says it's clear-cut. IMO the best car in C-segment depends on how much you have to spend and what engine/bodystyle you want.

I bought the C4 because IMO it was the best 55+mpg diesel for the price. If however I wanted something more "2.0-litre 150-ish BHP" (i.e. your car*), I'd probably have to spend a lot longer making a choice. That would include the 150ps 1.9CDTi Astra SRI, Golf GT-Sport, C4 2.0HDi (even though it's less powerful it makes-up or it with the rest of the package), and if I could afford them, the 1-series and Volvo C30.

* Although your car is a few BHP up on that because it's a damn good engine.

Of course if you look on a version per version basis there's not going to be clear winner. However if you look at the range as a whole, the Golf makes for a compelling option.

It has a good and refined chasis with all the latest developments. Their petrol engines are top-notch, especially the very interesting 1.4 TSI engines. Their diesel engines are lacking a bit, but when Volkswagen puts the new common rail diesels there that'll be solved. And it's also got the cutting edge dual clutch DSG gearbox.

Furthermore, it's got good quality, good image and rock solid residuals.

And yet I'd never buy it, I just can't like it. But very probably it's the benchmark for the segment.

Originally Posted by Clivey

Back on-topic though: What's to stop the new Mondeo with the 2.5-litre engine being successful in the US?

Lack of an auto? Too pricey?

Except for that it should succeed.

[Clivey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Of course if you look on a version per version basis there's not going to be clear winner. However if you look at the range as a whole, the Golf makes for a compelling option.

Except that's precisely the opposite of my point - I considered just about every new-ish car in the category and found that the C4 was the one I could barely find fault with.

My criteria (briefly - for a daily driver): A C-segment hatchback that manages over 40 MPG in town, is comfortable cruising along the motorway (and when I'm stuck in traffic), looks interesting and performs reasonably well when I'm on the right road for more enthusiastic driving.

The 147 - Too old in terms of design, the least safe, flaky quality.
The 1-Series - Too expensive, junior-repmobile image, don't like the front-end styling, everything's optional at extortionate cost.
The A-Class - Only just affordable, not sporty enough.
The Astra - 1.7CDTi engine outdated, missing desirable specification and lack of cubby holes in the cabin.
The C30 - Only 4 seats, expensive and hadn't been on the market long enough to find cheap enough used examples.
The Civic - Too expensive, the only diesel is too big (purchase price, insurance costs, fuel bills) and once again, hadn't been on the market long enough to find cheap enough used examples.
The Focus - Just horrible apart from the handling/engine/bootspace.
The Golf - Too bland (only top-of-the-range models have any styling details on top of the basic shape), lacking desirable features, the same "repmobile" image as the BMW and expensive.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

It has a good and refined chasis with all the latest developments. Their petrol engines are top-notch, especially the very interesting 1.4 TSI engines. Their diesel engines are lacking a bit, but when Volkswagen puts the new common rail diesels there that'll be solved. And it's also got the cutting edge dual clutch DSG gearbox.

Furthermore, it's got good quality, good image and rock solid residuals.

And yet I'd never buy it, I just can't like it. But very probably it's the benchmark for the segment.

Why is that, then (that you can't like it)? As I said - I'd consider it if I were looking for a 2.0-litre and had that sort of money to spend, but I'm glad we agree that
the 1.9-litre 105BHP diesel isn't the greatest.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Lack of an auto? Too pricey?

Except for that it should succeed.

Hmmm, I didn't realise they'd not yet released an autobox for the 2.5 - they have for the 2.3, though. My guess is that'll be added as the range expands.

As for the price: If you honestly compare it to the domestic competition, you can't tell me it's not worth it...!

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by Clivey

Except that's precisely the opposite of my point - I considered just about every new-ish car in the category and found that the C4 was the one I could barely find fault with.

My criteria (briefly - for a daily driver): A C-segment hatchback that manages over 40 MPG in town, is comfortable cruising along the motorway (and when I'm stuck in traffic), looks interesting and performs reasonably well when I'm on the right road for more enthusiastic driving.

The 147 - Too old in terms of design, the least safe, flaky quality.
The 1-Series - Too expensive, junior-repmobile image, don't like the front-end styling, everything's optional at extortionate cost.
The A-Class - Only just affordable, not sporty enough.
The Astra - 1.7CDTi engine outdated, missing desirable specification and lack of cubby holes in the cabin.
The C30 - Only 4 seats, expensive and hadn't been on the market long enough to find cheap enough used examples.
The Civic - Too expensive, the only diesel is too big (purchase price, insurance costs, fuel bills) and once again, hadn't been on the market long enough to find cheap enough used examples.
The Focus - Just horrible apart from the handling/engine/bootspace.
The Golf - Too bland (only top-of-the-range models have any styling details on top of the basic shape), lacking desirable features, the same "repmobile" image as the BMW and expensive.

I see your point but I think you are rather limiting it. What I mean is that when you consider a certain car to be a class leader you've got to consider the whole range not the model that suits you best. If I did that I'd consider the 1-series to be top of the tree and yet I don't think it is, but it suited what I wanted/needed.

I mainly agree with your analysis, but I still think the Golf's the best. Another interesting alternative to consider is the new cee'd. Zero cred and image but it seems to be a good car with excellent diesel engine especially. And in 3 door form it's quite a looker.

Ultimately, like the supercar discussion, it all comes down to subjectivity. So we porbably won't agree.

Originally Posted by Clivey

Why is that, then (that you can't like it)? As I said - I'd consider it if I were looking for a 2.0-litre and had that sort of money to spend, but I'm glad we agree that
the 1.9-litre 105BHP diesel isn't the greatest.

I think I have the same problem as you, I just can't get round the styling. It's just too bland and too tall. The Scirocco seems to solve that, but annoying it's wider (why?) and it'll probably be even more expensive as well as not having what for me is the strongest selling point for the Golf, the twincharged engines.

Thing is if I was to buy a Golf I'd probably buy a Seat Leon, altough that doesn't have the twincharged engines either. Damn...

Originally Posted by Clivey

Hmmm, I didn't realise they'd not yet released an autobox for the 2.5 - they have for the 2.3, though. My guess is that'll be added as the range expands.

As for the price: If you honestly compare it to the domestic competition, you can't tell me it's not worth it...!

I can. But can they?

[Clivey]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I see your point but I think you are rather limiting it. What I mean is that when you consider a certain car to be a class leader you've got to consider the whole range not the model that suits you best. If I did that I'd consider the 1-series to be top of the tree and yet I don't think it is, but it suited what I wanted/needed.

Sorry, it seems we've misunderstood each other - that's not what I meant at all, lol.

I simply meant that out of the models that were available to me, the C4 VTR+ HDI was the one that best fitted my criteria. I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that the C4 was the class leader across the board.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I mainly agree with your analysis, but I still think the Golf's the best. Another interesting alternative to consider is the new cee'd. Zero cred and image but it seems to be a good car with excellent diesel engine especially. And in 3 door form it's quite a looker.

The "best" Golf I could have bought for the money I paid for the C4 would have been a 1.9TDi S that would have been at least 6 months older and with twice the mileage (about 20,000 miles). Not only does it look extremely bland and offer no excitement or any "cool factor" at all next to the C4, but it's missing most of the Frenchie's spec list too.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Ultimately, like the supercar discussion, it all comes down to subjectivity. So we porbably won't agree.

I think I have the same problem as you, I just can't get round the styling. It's just too bland and too tall. The Scirocco seems to solve that, but annoying it's wider (why?) and it'll probably be even more expensive as well as not having what for me is the strongest selling point for the Golf, the twincharged engines.

I always say "If everyone was the same (liked the same thing), the world would be a very boring place."

I need to read-up on the Scirocco, but I'm surprised it doesn't have the TSi engines...and yes, it does look much more interesting than the standard Golf. Let's just hope that it's exciting to drive and has a more interesting interior than the "snooze fest" that's in the Mk5.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Thing is if I was to buy a Golf I'd probably buy a Seat Leon, altough that doesn't have the twincharged engines either. Damn...

Forgot to mention the Leon, although I did consider it. It's more interesting than the Golf but still expensive.

Originally Posted by Ferrer

I can. But can they?

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating." There's only one way to find-out.