What that car should have been in first place?!

[LeonOfTheDead]

Horacio, please, don't kill me.
Pagani Zonda C12 Vs Pagani Zonda F
the car are both beautiful, I love Pagani's cars, but even if you think the first C12 is good looking, what to say about it once you saw the last F?
this car is becoming better and better with every step further, it's just a shame it's very close to be substituted.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Horacio, please, don't kill me.
Pagani Zonda C12 Vs Pagani Zonda F
the car are both beautiful, I love Pagani's cars, but even if you think the first C12 is good looking, what to say about it once you saw the last F?
this car is becoming better and better with every step further, it's just a shame it's very close to be substituted.

I think that actually Pagani is losing the plot a bit with the Zonda. It seems like it's turning into the latest special edition extraordinaire. Mustang beware!

The original Zonda in any of its variants, but especially the 7.3 S, was simply spot on. It was just everything you could expect and want from a supercar. It made the Enzo look nerdy and the Murcielago look boring. The Zonda simply blowed them into middle of next week.

The amount of drama, excitement, styling, panache and attention to detail is simply unparalleled even today. There may be faster cars, cars that handle better or cars which are more technologically advanced, but the Zonda does what a supercar should do even with only looking at it. It makes you feel special.

Arguably the F may have been an improvement but nevertheless the original cannot be forgotten or underestimated.

[NSXType-R]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

since in a lot of discussion the point was that some cars should have been in first place like others, even from the same manufacturer, I thought that it should be a good idea to create this thread.
rules are very simple: mention one car and another one (concept or production one) which should have replaced the first since its appearance, and why. pics would be appreciated.
For example:
Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Vs Reventon
they share the same underpinning and power train, but the body style is totally different, and since a lot of enthusiasts actually think Lamborghini is one of the more outrageous manufacturers, the LP640 appears a little too much "educated" in front of its more extreme evolution which maintains the same "practicality" and level of "comfort".

To a certain extent I agree that the Reventon is more "Lamborghini" of the two, but both are equally good looking, and both are worthy of their badges.

The E and CLS classes I talked about already. Since both are being built and equally easy to be attained, it's a moot point.

Meanwhile, the Maseratis. I don't see the beauty in the Birdcage. I hear about its lineage all the time. I don't see any of it in its supposed ancestors. Not all that great looking either. I liked where they wanted to go with the bottom half. Then you get to the greenhouse and wonder what happened there? All glass, no doors? I don't mind that it's low. It's supposed to be low. But I prefer a more conventional approach.

p 4/5 vs. Enzo. P 4/5 wins. Hands down. The Enzo looks clumsy next to it. It looks like a klutz. It actually is slab sided.

The Scaglietti isn't a car I like in any iteration. But the concept is alright I guess.

[NSXType-R]

Studio Torino? What Studio Torino? Why mess with perfection? Besides slight cosmetic changes/paint changes, I see absolutely no difference between the two. I'd take the original thanks.

Aztec. No comment.

Maserati- Don't know enough to comment, don't see the difference between the two. They're both good looking though.

Pagani Zonda- They look about the same out there, perform about the same, drive about the same. Don't see much difference either.

[RacingManiac]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

Maserati MC12 v Birdcage Pininfarina:
Maseratis have always been about the elegance and beauty. And the production MC12 is anything but those. Created for motorsport it was based on Enzo mechanicals. And then in 2005 Pininfarina stunned the world with the Birdcage 75th Anniversary, which is what the MC12 should've been from the start. Impossibly long and low it still looks aboslutely gorgeus 3 years on.

Concept car vs a homologation special, totally moot point.....Although Maserati/Ferrari did make a mistake in MC12's design: it didn't conform to any rules, which meant it cannot compete in any series properly without modifications. And it is still ineligible for ACO/Le Mans competition, and too slow for something like Super GT....

a racecar made for nothing....

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by RacingManiac

a racecar made for nothing....

Therefore if it more or less failed its point, why not forget it and change the approach?

[ruim20]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

What they should have done is keep the boomerang rear lights. They were fantastic.

The replacement units were average...

Agreed, the redesigned lights where rubish, the 3200 was so much elegant, the new lights just ruined the hole car for me.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

Studio Torino? What Studio Torino? Why mess with perfection? Besides slight cosmetic changes/paint changes, I see absolutely no difference between the two. I'd take the original thanks.

here you can see how much the two cars are different. (posted pics)

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

Pagani Zonda- They look about the same out there, perform about the same, drive about the same. Don't see much difference either.

actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F

agreed, it's predecessors were a bit wacky and unresolved; the F neatened everything up and made it awesome imo.

[NSXType-R]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

here you can see how much the two cars are different. (posted pics)




actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...

If you need a diagram to show me the changes, then that's too few on its own.

Original still wins in my book.

Performance wise it is way different, but generally speaking from the exterior they kinda look the same. Although yes, the V12 in the first car is a huge difference from the F.

Talking about the exterior, I wonder how they do in the wind tunnel? The headlights aren't exactly streamlined.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by NSXType-R

Talking about the exterior, I wonder how they do in the wind tunnel? The headlights aren't exactly streamlined.

think about the MC12, sometimes the headlights are without the cover...

[fpv_gtho]

1999 FTE T-Series vs 2001 FTE T3 T-Series

Ford launched a failed attempt with their unloved AU series Falcon to match Holdens upmarket sports brand HSV. It might have worked, but they released the cars with underpowered engines that only provided 200kw for the TE50 and 220kw for the TS/TL50. Holden and HSV had just recieved first shipment of GM's LS1 V8, which in stock tune produced 250kw for the base HSV models whilst Holden ran a detuned version matching FTE's best 220kw figure. It took them 2 years before they finally could match HSV's firepower, by developing a stroker kit for the now out of production 302/5L V8, bumping capacity up to 5.6L and allowing a power figure of 250kw. The car was so good, it was still faster in the right hands than the later released BA model FPV GT which superceded the FTE TE50 in the marketplace.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Lancia Nuova Delta Vs Lancia Delta Vs Fiat Bravo Vs Fiat Croma
My idea is this: the new Delta is a good looking car and it seems to be a good car too, from the first review. but it appears it has the wrong name, since everyone is connecting it to the old Delta Integrale, so rallies and world championships. so that's my idea: the new Delta should have been the new Fiat Bravo, that is to say, same platform but shortened, and maybe with 3 doors. at that point an HF version could be very possible, and with it a WRC version to use in the rallies but in a different championship from the Abarth S2000.
in this case the actual new Delta should become the replacement for the old Dedra.
and at that point, what to do with Fiat?! the Delta is simply to big for it, since it's nearly as long as the Croma, so there are more options to evaluate.
a double version of the Croma, SWB and LWB, together with the actual bravo, maybe limited to the 3 doors variant. I like the idea.
another idea could be to enlarge even more the new Delta to replace the aging Multipla.
thoughts?!

[LeonOfTheDead]

and this is a gift for those who actually think Delta is only a sport car.
look at the differences...

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

actually, the first C12 had "only" 394 hp from the standard 6.0 liter V12 from the old S-Class.
IMO the best looking of all the Zonda is the F, the level of details (perfect details imo) is astonishing, it's the best evolution I can remember now, from the same car, not like the 911 saga...

The peak of the 911 family was reached in 1972 with the Carrera RS. Since then nothing has bettered it and nothing ever will probably. On the other hand the 993 was a nice highlight too.

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

Lancia Nuova Delta Vs Lancia Delta Vs Fiat Bravo Vs Fiat Croma
My idea is this: the new Delta is a good looking car and it seems to be a good car too, from the first review. but it appears it has the wrong name, since everyone is connecting it to the old Delta Integrale, so rallies and world championships. so that's my idea: the new Delta should have been the new Fiat Bravo, that is to say, same platform but shortened, and maybe with 3 doors. at that point an HF version could be very possible, and with it a WRC version to use in the rallies but in a different championship from the Abarth S2000.
in this case the actual new Delta should become the replacement for the old Dedra.
and at that point, what to do with Fiat?! the Delta is simply to big for it, since it's nearly as long as the Croma, so there are more options to evaluate.
a double version of the Croma, SWB and LWB, together with the actual bravo, maybe limited to the 3 doors variant. I like the idea.
another idea could be to enlarge even more the new Delta to replace the aging Multipla.
thoughts?!

The Lancia Delta is a fine car. For a Fiat that is.

I'm sorry but I've never liked it. And it's not the fact that it's a Bravo underneath or that it has a torsion beam rear suspension. No, what's worse of all in my opinion is that after unveiling the Granturismo Carcerano and the Granturismo Stilnovo the new Delta doesn't feel special at all. An opportunity missed in ym opinion. Altough it seems that now they want to introduce a million sportscars which I don't quite understand.