Drifting vs. Power-sliding

First off, I've got no idea if something like this has been posted yet or not, so if it has, 1000 apologies and a side of fries.


I read something quite interesting the other day, something I never knew. I always thought that drifting and power-sliding was the same thing, turns out it's [B]not[/B].

Let me explain as best I can:

Sliding: A state where the tyres lose grip and slide. Power-sliding is considered a controlled slide, is usually done with a RWD car and the direction the vehicle is traveling in can be controlled by throttle input and steering. Has little use in racing as the vehicle generally loses momentum. Mostly seen as entertainment, both to watch and to do.

Drifting: All four wheels have grip, but the angle of the vehicle as a whole is slightly different than the direction the vehicle is traveling in (resembles oversteer but with all four wheels having grip). Typically, a drift is characterized by the front and rear-wheels being at approximately the same angle, usually with the front-wheels turned in slightly more (front wheels turned into the direction of travel as opposed to opposite-lock in power-sliding). Direction of travel mostly controlled by throttle input alone, accompanied by minimal steering adjustment.This is considered as the fastest way around a corner and employed by many race-drivers in numerous disciplines of racing.


I don't have the more in-depth details of it (will try to get it), but it comes down to the "drifting" we hear so much about isn't drifting at all! If you're confused at this stage as I was when I read it, think of it this way: Tyres are flexible, therefore, the direction the wheels are pointing in and the actual direction the tyres are traveling in can be quite different at times.
Need proof? Drive on a stretch of road when the wind is really strong and you'll experience it- steering wheel is kept stationary, side wind catches your car and suddenly you're traveling more left or right than you intended without you actually changing direction via the steering wheel.

Also, almost anybody can perform a slide. Turn, apply some handbrake or if your car is RWD and has enough power, simply throttle it, and voila, you just performed a slide.

Drifting is a different matter altogether and something I personally haven't experienced yet. It takes extreme skill in order to master this art as you can probably imagine. Boils down to getting the balance of the car just right (weight transfer between the wheels, both front-to-rear and left-to-right) and steering the car via the throttle [I]without[/I] losing grip on any of the tyres...


Interesting I hope?


Look out for some extra technical details soon.

Neat. I always kept rambling that they weren't identical, but never really knew the difference. Thanx Mate. Keiichi Tsuchiya aka 'Drift King' describes a drift, "You brake and then turn the wheel, step on the clutch, and pull the e-brake. Release the e-brake, go into countersteer mode, then wait. Wait until you know the car is facing the corner exit direction. then you smile and slam on the gas as you exit the corner."

If you remember, he makes an appearance in The Fast And The Furious: Tokyo Drift (the old fisherman)

Drive safe!

[QUOTE=Nazmacher]Neat. I always kept rambling that they weren't identical, but never really knew the difference. Thanx Mate. [/QUOTE]


My pleasure. :)

So does this mean that when someone says a car "wiggles" in corners it's drifting?

[QUOTE=Sweeney921]So does this mean that when someone says a car "wiggles" in corners it's drifting?[/QUOTE]


I have no idea. Twitches, riggles, rolls, shakes, nervous, pushes, jutters, shimmies... who knows?


EDIT: I think it could mean that the tail is twitchy under braking before turn-in, but again, not sure myself...

In your discription of a real drift you say that all four wheels have grip. You need to explain this because to get the absolute fastest corner speed all wheels need to be sliding ever so slightly as that is when they are at maximum lateral traction for any given speed.

basically instead of grip (which in my mind means zero slipping) should be replaced with traction (only implies that the wheels are not forced over their limit and could be slipping slightly). Otherwise you are bang on the mark.

that description is total bollocks, to drift the rear tyres need to break traction to produce smoke, and because smoke is one criteria a drifter is marked on, if the wheels had grip, no smoke would be produced.


powerslide = using power to get your car sideways out of the corner

drift = using momentum, technique (handbrake / clutch) to get sideways in, through and clean out of the corner (unless setting up for next corner)

[QUOTE=whiteballz]that description is total bollocks[/QUOTE]
indeed. not once did it mention a supra or a viper.

[QUOTE=Kooper]Drifting: All four wheels have grip...[/QUOTE]

nope.

whiteballz is correct, rear wheels must break traction and spin, otherwise its just fast cornering and thats no fun to watch.

if you don't need a hard opposite lock to slide through a turn, you're power sliding; if you need it, you're drifting

Look, believe what you will. I read this from a respected technical writer.

Not to say you're all wrong and he's right, besides, every driver has his own terms and lingo. If you want "drift" to mean the rear-wheels must produce smoke, so be it.

Then again, if you want understeer to mean "tail-sliding" and oversteer to mean "nose-pushing", then by jove that's your right.

Let me get the original article and post it, it's possible some of the facts got lost during my translation.

Until that time though, I again state that according to the article what it came down to was that drifting is [I]not[/I] having the rear-end break away with plumes of smoke, but a black-art of getting the car's attitude in an oversteering manouvre [I]without[/I] any of the tyres losing grip/ traction/ whatever.

And that's what I'm going with as the meaning of the term "drift".

[QUOTE=Kooper]Look, believe what you will. I read this from a respected technical writer.

Not to say you're all wrong and he's right, besides, every driver has his own terms and lingo. If you want "drift" to mean the rear-wheels must produce smoke, so be it.

Then again, if you want understeer to mean "tail-sliding" and oversteer to mean "nose-pushing", then by jove that's your right.

Let me get the original article and post it, it's possible some of the facts got lost during my translation.

Until that time though, I again state that according to the article what it came down to was that drifting is [I]not[/I] having the rear-end break away with plumes of smoke, but a black-art of [B]getting the car's attitude in an oversteering manouvre [I]without[/I] any of the tyres losing grip/ traction/ whatever.[/B]

And that's what I'm going with as the meaning of the term "drift".[/QUOTE] Makes abolutely no sense whatsoever.

According to that, Drifting is basically turning.

To get into an "oversteering manuever" the tires would have to break traction.

[QUOTE=The_Canuck]Makes abolutely no sense whatsoever.

According to that, Drifting is basically turning.

To get into an "oversteering manuever" the tires would have to break traction.[/QUOTE]


No, it does not.

You missed the bit I mentioned about the direction the wheels are facing and the direction the tyres are actually travelling in, didn't you? Remember, tyres are flexible. They don't have to lose grip in order to travel in a different direction than what the car itself [B](AND the car's wheels for that matter)[/B] is facing in... If that wasn't possible, you'd be sliding in huge clouds of smoke all across the highway everytime a light gust of wind caught your car.

I give up. Let me just post the darn article.


EDIT: Actually no, let me take on this debate a bit more under my own steam (I'm still going to post the article).


Crossply tyres were replaced by radials... Why?

Because radial tyres are more flexible (incorrect term may have been used). This means that when going around a turn, crossply tyres wouldn't adapt enough to the surface of the road, therefore less area of contact, therefore less grip. Stiff sidewalls didn't help either.
Radials on the other hand have more adaptive properties. You go around a turn. The tyre itself adjusts to the surface of the road, therefore more contact area, therefore more grip.
And here's an interesting factoid for you: That's why so many technically-inclined people are against the run-flat tyres employed by some manufacturers at the moment, specifically BMW. The runflats (not all types) make use of strengthened sidewalls, which allows the form of the tyre to remain almost as it would've been if inflated. It doesn't collapse entirely if deflated in other words. This however defeats the purpose of a radial tyre, as one of the main attractions of the radial was it's adaptive properties, specifically it's sidewalls. But that's another story.

Anyways, the point is, if a radial tyre can adapt to transversal and up-and-down forces, what makes you think that it can't adapt to longitudinal forces...? Remember, a tyre isn't a piece of metal (even though metals are a part if a tyre's construct), it's flexible. It changes shape. Deflate the tyres of your car now to see what I mean.

Saying a car can't oversteer without the rear-tyres losing grip is the same as saying a car can't understeer without the front-tyres losing grip. Understeering without the front-tyres losing grip is something you can experience everyday, in almost any car (preferably a FWD car), at everyday-speeds (less than 60km/h or 35mph).

In fact, my dear UCPers, I'm willing to wager a bet that the most time a tyre (radials specifically) travels in the exact same direction as the wheel is when the car is moving in a straight line, without any transversal forces acting upon it (putting my head on the block with this one).

There, I've said my bit.

Are you discussing new-age style drifting or the classic four-wheel-drifts as seen in other motorsport? :confused:

[QUOTE=nota]Are you discussing new-age style drifting or the classic four-wheel-drifts as seen in other motorsport? :confused:[/QUOTE]


Probably the latter.

[QUOTE=Kooper]Probably the latter.[/QUOTE]
So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein [u]none[/u] of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?

Sorry, I don't have any good examples to illustrate ATM except for these small pics which depict four wheel drifts, with under & oversteer (Alfa GTV, Monaro 350, Mustang)

[QUOTE=nota]So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein [u]none[/u] of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?

Sorry, I don't have any good examples to illustrate ATM except for these small pics which depict four wheel drifts, with under & oversteer (Alfa GTV, Monaro 350, Mustang)[/QUOTE]


Seems more or less accurate. I know they used a Porsche 911 as an example in the article. Hold on, I'll try to get some pics as well...

so if drifting is the wheels having grip and producing slide while maintaining power, what the hell are they doing in the D1 championships??

[QUOTE=whiteballz]so if drifting is the wheels having grip and producing slide while maintaining power, what the hell are they doing in the D1 championships??[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately I don't watch D1 championships, so you tell me?

[url]http://tunertrader.vidiac.com/search/drifting/0/2e98d559-c467-48d3-bee3-e72bfc1f41c6.htm[/url]

in car, this guys front wheels have grip, rears have little to none at all, the rear is swinging around by using the throttle, steering inputs, and momentum of original power.

i fail to see how the tyres deforming will maintain grip and keep the car accelerating if the wheels are pointing inside the corner @ 90 degrees??

[QUOTE=whiteballz][url]http://tunertrader.vidiac.com/search/drifting/0/2e98d559-c467-48d3-bee3-e72bfc1f41c6.htm[/url]

in car, this guys front wheels have grip, rears have little to none at all, the rear is swinging around by using the throttle, steering inputs, and momentum of original power.

i fail to see how the tyres deforming will maintain grip and keep the car accelerating if the wheels are pointing inside the corner @ 90 degrees??[/QUOTE]


That's just it though, we're not talking 90 degrees here. I don't know of any tyre that would still have grip at a 90 degree sideways movement either...

We're talking a difference in angle that would not break the tyres' grip, and obviously that depends on a great deal of factors. Tyre make, profile, compound etc. EDIT: don't forget pressure either.

oh ok i mis understood the earlier point, what i think the trouble with the way your describing is the drift in the original term of the matter, when it was still used in racing by the drift god, who raced an underpowered AE86 in japan, he found he was faster in corners then most others, but once the straights appeared he just wasnt able to keep up with the S13's and 180's, also ceffy's 300's etc etc. he found it quicker to slide abit through some corners to maintain revs and momentum to be able to overtake on the corners.

i think thats what your describing, maintaining grip whilst still trying to maintain speed.

i think everyone else now is viewing "drift" and the term drift, to the evloution of that original style, which is drift as we know it as the sport.

Yeah... still not sure we're quite on the same page.

[QUOTE=nota]So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein [u]none[/u] of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?[/QUOTE]


This is hard to explain and hard to understand, but if what you say here is what I think you said, then I think you and I are on the same page. (If that makes sense at all)

I found some links on different drifting techniques. Interesting to say the least:

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/shiftlock.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/ebrakedrift.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/dirtdrop.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/feintdrift.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/jumpdrift.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/brakingdrift.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/kanseidrift.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/longslide.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/swayingdrift.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Kooper]This is hard to explain and hard to understand, but if what you say here is what I think you said, then I think you and I are on the same page. (If that makes sense at all)[/QUOTE]
I think we might be .. :D

For example this pic which is a somewhat clearer example; note the wheel angles of this '71 Falcon GT-HO production-sedan in relation to its true direction of travel. It is exhibiting both power understeer & power oversteer .. at the same time. Having myself witnessed drivers making these cars do this [u]all[/u] the way around a corner, this car is in a true four wheel drift imho

[url]http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/item-5872public.html?cache=no[/url]

Also 4W-drifting was the little Alfa GTV in my previous pic, because although that car is tail-sliding under corrective opposite lock, its front wheels are also sliding (almost a [i]reverse understeer[/i] situation, I guess) and thus it doesn't require more steering correction to both reflect and countersteer towards the vehicle's true direction of travel - so again it's in a four wheel drift

Or you could imagine a car which is in a similar tail-out sliding stance to the GT-HO (nose pointing inward of the apex) except that its front wheels might have zero steering lock applied (ie front wheels pointing straight ahead). But in effect it would be understeering (as well as oversteering) because, although there is no steering input, the vehicle's true direction of travel does not follow where the front (or rear) wheels are pointing, and both front and rear axles are sliding outwards

I agree it can be a bit challenging to describe clearly in words, at least for me in a quick post. Perhaps four wheel drifting could be quantified as a vehicle being in a controlled (usually power-on) circumstance wherein all four tyres are exhibiting a significant slip-angle in relation to said vehicle's true & intended direction of travel down the roadway?

[QUOTE=nota]I think we might be .. :D
[/QUOTE]


I think that what you're thinking is right! :D

I've got the magazine in my hands, just have to find someone with a scanner now.

It seems I might have been incorrect by saying drifting and power-sliding isn't the same thing. Not sure at this point to be honest. Maybe someone else can clear things up after I submitted the article.

To be able to get this thing finished everyone should agree to the meaning of certain terms.

To start I will bring up Grip, Traction, Slip, and Sliding.

Now this is what I believe they mean:

Grip: When a wheel is not slipping or sliding at all (no smoke) it has grip, although during cornering a slip-angle may be present (ie the wheel appears to be pointing in a different direction then it is traveling but there is still no smoke or screeching). A tire will run out of grip long before it runs out of traction. F1 however is special because the tires are designed so that the grip of the tires continues right up to the limit of traction.

Traction: Used to describe the limits of force transmission between the tire and the ground. For example most tires produce the most traction for acceleration when they are slipping slightly, producing very little smoke (chirping). Also during cornering the very limit of traction will be when the tire is slightly slipping. When you pass the limit of traction any additional force is wasted and the current force allowed is not the same as when at the limit (alot less so normally).

Slip: When a tire slips it produces small amounts of smoke. Slipping is what happens when a tire is right at it's maximum traction level.

Slide: When you exceed the traction limit of a tire you slide, losing traction and control. Burnouts are an example of sliding during pure acceleration.

D1 championship slides the rear tires to produce their drift, while the front tires grip and are well within their traction limits.

Real drifting that allows you to drive the fastest is about maintaining all 4 tires at their limit of traction (hence alittle slipping and little smoke). The mastery is combining cornering and acceleration and deceleration forces without passing the limit of traction, the closer you get the faster you are.

Now in my mind power sliding is using the force generated by the engine to exceed the tractive limits of the back tires so that the car exhibits oversteer, which needs to be maintained and controled by counter steering and throttle control.

D1 does this but takes it to another level where they maintain the powerslide through a series of corners. Hence D1 is actually glorified extreme powersliding, not drifting. However rally racing where cars take corners with oversteer is not powersliding, it is force vectoring. Rally racers need to get the car into oversteer because on loose ground (which allows low levels of grip and traction) you need to corner by using the radial force retaining abilities of the tires instead of the axial.

everybody go to google video and type in drifting in the search bar

[QUOTE=hightower99]Grip: When a wheel is not slipping or sliding at all (no smoke) it has grip[/QUOTE]

Grip is simply a measure of how much traction you have, not really a force in its own right.

[QUOTE=hightower99]although during cornering a slip-angle may be present[/QUOTE]

Which is caused by flex in the sidewalls when the grip of the tyre exceeds the possible turning moment. It doesn't mean that the tyre is slipping across the surface of the tarmac.

[QUOTE=hightower99]F1 however is special because the tires are designed so that the grip of the tires continues right up to the limit of traction.[/QUOTE]

I guess you're refering to the 'snappiness' of F1 cars i.e. their tendancy to spin at the point they break traction? That's because of the set up trade-off between the width of the line between smokey tyres and a crash, and ultimate cornering speed. The narrower the line, the higher the cornering speed - F1 cars have no need to move around so, through very stiff suspension and so-on, that line can be atom-thin. The reliance on aerodynamic grip also has a huge impact: if the car is not moving straight into its direction of travel, none of the wings will be working and you'll lose enormous amounts of grip in a split second - spin-a-rama.

[QUOTE=hightower99]Traction: Used to describe the limits of force transmission between the tire and the ground. For example most tires produce the most traction for acceleration when they are slipping slightly, producing very little smoke (chirping).[/QUOTE]

That depends on the type of power delivery the engine provides relative to the grip level of the tyres (torque vs power for example), weight distribution, driveshaft wind-up, tyre type, weather conditions etc etc. If you try that chirping technique in a 911, you stand a good chance of wasting tenths to axle tramp.

[QUOTE=hightower99]Also during cornering the very limit of traction will be when the tire is slightly slipping.[/QUOTE]

On road tyres, yes.

[QUOTE=hightower99]Slip: When a tire slips it produces small amounts of smoke. Slipping is what happens when a tire is right at it's maximum traction level.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the tyre, the car and the purpose, if by 'maximum traction' you mean 'going as fast as you can go'

[QUOTE=hightower99]However rally racing where cars take corners with oversteer is not powersliding, it is force vectoring. Rally racers need to get the car into oversteer because on loose ground (which allows low levels of grip and traction) you need to corner by using the radial force retaining abilities of the tires instead of the axial.[/QUOTE]

Rally cars don't really oversteer though, you only ever see the back trying to overtake the front during hairpins. The trick to rally driving is balancing the throttle that's taking you forward via the four wheels against the what has always been known (long before D1) as a four-wheel drift, to create an arc from entry to apex to exit. In rallying all four wheels are moving across the surface towards the outside of the corner - oversteer is when only the back of the car has those tendencies.

[QUOTE=MrKipling]Grip is simply a measure of how much traction you have, not really a force in its own right.[/QUOTE]
Hence why we need to agree on how to use the word "grip" I didn't use the word grip as a force but to describe the time when a wheel is not slipping or sliding but still generating tractive forces.



[QUOTE=MrKipling]Which is caused by flex in the sidewalls when the grip of the tyre exceeds the possible turning moment. It doesn't mean that the tyre is slipping across the surface of the tarmac.[/QUOTE]
Yes I know a slip angle is when the direction of travel and the apparent direction of the wheel differ however there can be slipping and sliding and without.



[QUOTE=MrKipling]I guess you're refering to the 'snappiness' of F1 cars i.e. their tendancy to spin at the point they break traction? That's because of the set up trade-off between the width of the line between smokey tyres and a crash, and ultimate cornering speed. The narrower the line, the higher the cornering speed - F1 cars have no need to move around so, through very stiff suspension and so-on, that line can be atom-thin. The reliance on aerodynamic grip also has a huge impact: if the car is not moving straight into its direction of travel, none of the wings will be working and you'll lose enormous amounts of grip in a split second - spin-a-rama.[/QUOTE] Yes like I said the tires are designed so that they are in grip mode right up to the limit of traction.



[QUOTE=MrKipling]That depends on the type of power delivery the engine provides relative to the grip level of the tyres (torque vs power for example), weight distribution, driveshaft wind-up, tyre type, weather conditions etc etc. If you try that chirping technique in a 911, you stand a good chance of wasting tenths to axle tramp.[/QUOTE] By chirping I meant that the wheels where rotating faster than the velocity of the vehicle. To get the most traction out of any tire you need to go beyond grip mode (even in F1 but there it is such a fine line that you shouldn't try)



[QUOTE=MrKipling]On road tyres, yes.[/QUOTE]
On all tires... Even in F1 the limit of traction is just ever so slightly beyond the grip mode limit of the tire.



[QUOTE=MrKipling]Depends on the tyre, the car and the purpose, if by 'maximum traction' you mean 'going as fast as you can go'[/QUOTE]
By "Maximum traction" I mean maximum traction... traction being the ability of the tire to restrain lateral acceleration and produce straight line acceleration and deceleration. You make the most when the tires are slipping ever so slightly and on some tires smoke is produced.



[QUOTE=MrKipling]Rally cars don't really oversteer though, you only ever see the back trying to overtake the front during hairpins. The trick to rally driving is balancing the throttle that's taking you forward via the four wheels against the what has always been known (long before D1) as a four-wheel drift, to create an arc from entry to apex to exit. In rallying all four wheels are moving across the surface towards the outside of the corner - oversteer is when only the back of the car has those tendencies.[/QUOTE]

In any sharp corner in a rally, every car that makes it through will have been in oversteer at some point during the corner. By the way, when the centerline of the car and the line of travel are not the same and when the cars centerline is pointed so that the front is closer to the inside then the back then the car is in oversteer.

[QUOTE=hightower99] Yes like I said the tires are designed so that they are in grip mode right up to the limit of traction.[/QUOTE]

No, like I said, it's the set-up - not the tyres - that makes F1 cars handle the way they do. The tyres are designed for the cars, but the set-up creates the handling characteristics.

Look, it is physically impossible (as in, by the laws of physics) to gain maximum accelerative force from a tyre that is beyond its limit of grip. If you're making smoke or sound, you're wasting energy that would be much better spent tranfering forces to the road - be it braking, accelerating or steering.

The only reason people seem to think that the quickest way for a car to move is if the tyres are chriping is because it is the only way to tell when you're that close to the limit of traction, and in a 'low' powered car it gives you more options for line adjustment.

Oh and in case you were wondering, rally cars are set up to understeer,

[QUOTE=MrKipling]No, like I said, it's the set-up - not the tyres - that makes F1 cars handle the way they do. The tyres are designed for the cars, but the set-up creates the handling characteristics.[/QUOTE] So tires aren't an important part of a car's setup?

[QUOTE=MrKipling]Look, it is physically impossible (as in, by the laws of physics) to gain maximum accelerative force from a tyre that is beyond its limit of grip. If you're making smoke or sound, you're wasting energy that would be much better spent tranfering forces to the road - be it braking, accelerating or steering.[/QUOTE] Well actually at the highest limit of traction friction is increased because bonds between the molecules of rubber in the tyre break...

[QUOTE=MrKipling]The only reason people seem to think that the quickest way for a car to move is if the tyres are chriping is because it is the only way to tell when you're that close to the limit of traction, and in a 'low' powered car it gives you more options for line adjustment.[/QUOTE] I disagree. To get the most traction out of the tires they have to break the bonds. Just look at any fast drag car. the winners are almost always the guys who have only a thin puff of light blue smoke from their tires when they launch, not the guys who take off with no slip at all.

[QUOTE=MrKipling]Oh and in case you were wondering, rally cars are set up to understeer,[/QUOTE] Depends on the car and stage but yes sometimes rally cars are set for understeer. Why? because on gravel roads if you set the car up for oversteer you would not be able to control the car.

[QUOTE=hightower99]So tires aren't an important part of a car's setup?

Well actually at the highest limit of traction friction is increased because bonds between the molecules of rubber in the tyre break...

I disagree. To get the most traction out of the tires they have to break the bonds. Just look at any fast drag car. the winners are almost always the guys who have only a thin puff of light blue smoke from their tires when they launch, not the guys who take off with no slip at all. [/QUOTE]

I do not see how “breaking” rubber bonds helps improve traction.

When corning for example, at a slip angle that produces maximum lateral force some of the contact patch will be sliding with respect to the ground. I can see how this might produce smoke or noise at peak performance levels.

But if the bond between the tire and the ground breaks, then force can nolonger be transmitted across the tire-ground link.

[QUOTE=Alastor]I do not see how “breaking” rubber bonds helps improve traction.

When corning for example, at a slip angle that produces maximum lateral force some of the contact patch will be sliding with respect to the ground. I can see how this might produce smoke or noise at peak performance levels.

But if the bond between the tire and the ground breaks, then force can nolonger be transmitted across the tire-ground link.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say the contact between tire and ground breaks I said the bond between the molecules in the tire break.

Basically for total traction when a molecule of rubber in the tire comes into contact with the ground then to transfer the most energy it most break from the tire and stay with the ground, but not until it is at the end of the contact patch...

[QUOTE=hightower99]I didn't say the contact between tire and ground breaks I said the bond between the molecules in the tire break.

Basically for total traction when a molecule of rubber in the tire comes into contact with the ground then to transfer the most energy it most break from the tire and stay with the ground, but not until it is at the end of the contact patch...[/QUOTE]

You are saying that by that by breaking the bonds in the tire the maximum about energy is transferred through the tire.

If I am understanding that correctly then it refers to the friction component of traction not the total traction. It seems to me that this would only be useful for the thin layer of rubber interacting with the ground. Other wise excessive bonding breaking would generate an excessive amount heat.

[QUOTE=hightower99]To be able to get this thing finished everyone should agree to the meaning of certain terms.

Grip: When a wheel is not slipping or sliding at all (no smoke) it has grip, although during cornering a slip-angle may be present (ie the wheel appears to be pointing in a different direction then it is traveling but there is still no smoke or screeching). A tire will run out of grip long before it runs out of traction. F1 however is special because the tires are designed so that the grip of the tires continues right up to the limit of traction.

Traction: Used to describe the limits of force transmission between the tire and the ground. For example most tires produce the most traction for acceleration when they are slipping slightly, producing very little smoke (chirping). Also during cornering the very limit of traction will be when the tire is slightly slipping. When you pass the limit of traction any additional force is wasted and the current force allowed is not the same as when at the limit (alot less so normally).

D1 championship slides the rear tires to produce their drift, while the front tires grip and are well within their traction limits.

Real drifting that allows you to drive the fastest is about maintaining all 4 tires at their limit of traction (hence alittle slipping and little smoke). The mastery is combining cornering and acceleration and deceleration forces without passing the limit of traction, the closer you get the faster you are.

Now in my mind power sliding is using the force generated by the engine to exceed the tractive limits of the back tires so that the car exhibits oversteer, which needs to be maintained and controled by counter steering and throttle control.

D1 does this but takes it to another level where they maintain the powerslide through a series of corners. Hence D1 is actually glorified extreme powersliding, not drifting. However rally racing where cars take corners with oversteer is not powersliding, it is force vectoring. Rally racers need to get the car into oversteer because on loose ground (which allows low levels of grip and traction) you need to corner by using the radial force retaining abilities of the tires instead of the axial.[/QUOTE]


i agree with sir High tower.

ever watch those free dvds about early drifting, i mean early jgtc racing in japan. you find that they were actually drifting to find the fastest route through a corner. in todays d1 they purposly e-brake, breaking traction, they just use the radial force on the rear tire, to control the car.

real drifting as in the first definition can be done in rear wheel ,forward wheel drive and all wheel drive easily.

Sorry, but hightower is talking rubbish... F1 cars are the perfect example of how to go round a corner quickly, and you'll never see them 'making puffs of smoke' unless they cocked up.

Of course tyres are important for handling, but all they do is transfer the forces (influenced by set-up) to the tarmac.

Because, unlike some people on this forum, I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I know everything; I checked this out with a bunch of people I know who do know (rally driver, circuit instructor, engineer) and they seemed to agree with what I was trying to say... mainly because, in this case, I am right.

Kigango, no one is likely to take you seriously when you have a signature like that.

This will be my last post on this thread I think... I'm tired of arguing with idiots - I'm beginning to understand why Matra left. What a load of b*llocks.

[QUOTE=hightower99]Real drifting that allows you to drive the fastest is about maintaining all 4 tires at their limit of traction.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but that is only when aerodinamics ans physics don't allow you to do it in a better and cleaner way like, say, in a F1. No need for 4 wheel drifts there.

[QUOTE=MrKipling] I'm tired of arguing with idiots - I'm beginning to understand why Matra left. What a load of b*llocks.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you got it right: he left because he also couldn't take a deep breath and understand that there will always be stubborn members and that calling them idiots won't help either them or him. Calm down.