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Best American Super Car
What do you think is the best American Super car? (try to stick with the modern ones, if you'd like).
I have to cast my lot with the Corvette ZR1. It has undoubted performance. It has the most power (638), most torque (topping out at 600), and is the lightest (dropping in at 3340). It has a brilliant suspension (FERRARI uses the Magnetic Suspension technology), and it has brilliant weight distribution (48/51). My only problem is that it's engine isn't front mid mounted, which is a huge let down considering its huge capabilities.
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Saleen S7/S7 TT/S7 TT Competition.
Better weight distribution, downforce etc. And up to 1,000 hp. Plus I like the looks.
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I always forget about these "tuner" supercars! I always have my mind on the Big 3 production cars, but if we are talking those "tuners," then I'd have the Hennessey Venom GT. Almost exactly the same specs, but better looking. And probably more reliable (I've seen reports of Saleen S7s having the crappiest gaskets. I'll try to find the video, but some guy was saying how he bought an S7, and then on a road trip, the gasket blew, destroying the whole motor. Then on the way back home after getting a new motor, it blew again!).
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[quote=Magnum9987;951820]I always forget about these "tuner" supercars! I always have my mind on the Big 3 production cars, but if we are talking those "tuners," then I'd have the Hennessey Venom GT. Almost exactly the same specs, but better looking. And probably more reliable (I've seen reports of Saleen S7s having the crappiest gaskets. I'll try to find the video, but some guy was saying how he bought an S7, and then on a road trip, the gasket blew, destroying the whole motor. Then on the way back home after getting a new motor, it blew again!).[/quote]
A Venom GT is a pumped up GT, similar to Hennessey's Venom series of Vipers. The S7 is a whole new car, not a pumped up Mustang or anything.
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Hennessey as you may know isn't exactly known for, well, doing things well or making them last or making them last or treating his customer well as I recall.
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[quote=Kitdy;951824]Hennessey as you may know isn't exactly known for, well, doing things well or making them last or making them last or treating his customer well as I recall.[/quote]
That too. Probably why he started on other cars than Vipers, to get into a whole new market where he isn't as well known.
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Newer cars, I'd take a Ford GT. Its timeless just like the car it pays homage to.
If we're talking older American cars of status, I wouldn't hesitate for even a split second to take an AC Cobra. That is THE american car. I want one of those Factory 5 replicas.
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[quote=DesmoRob;951829]Newer cars, I'd take a Ford GT. Its timeless just like the car it pays homage to.
If we're talking older American cars of status, I wouldn't hesitate for even a split second to take an AC Cobra. That is THE american car. I want one of those Factory 5 replicas.[/quote]
I'd take a kit (there are some good kits out there) GT40 over the Ford GT. You'd have the same reliability and a lighter car with a feel (and look, in person there's quite a difference) closer to the original. But yeah, the Cobra rules. If I ever have the money I'd try and get a hold of one of the official Shelby reproductions.
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The new Hennessey Venom GT. An elise on steroids that is then on acid and then blessed by Chuck Norris.
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Oh, right the Hennessey Venom GT is different from the Hennessey Venom (viper) and Hennessey GT (ford GT.) My bad. :o
Still, made by Hennessey with all that entails.
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[quote=Magnum9987;951816]What do you think is the best American Super car? (try to stick with the modern ones, if you'd like).
I have to cast my lot with the Corvette ZR1. It has undoubted performance. It has the most power (638), most torque (topping out at 600), and is the lightest (dropping in at 3340). It has a brilliant suspension (FERRARI uses the Magnetic Suspension technology), and it has brilliant weight distribution (48/51). My only problem is that it's engine isn't front mid mounted, which is a huge let down considering its huge capabilities.[/quote]
Front mid mounted is a rather pointless classifier. The TJ Jeep Wrangler with the I4 had a front mid motor. The longer I6 extended past the front axle so I guess it wasn't front mid. Funny, I would have assumed both were front engined since the engine was in front of the passenger compartment.
BTW, I think the Corvette motor is behind the front axle line though it would make virtually no difference if it wasn't.
The best American supercars were Chaparral's because in the company's short racing life they were as innovative as any racing company in history.
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[quote=culver;951837]Front mid mounted is a rather pointless classifier. The TJ Jeep Wrangler with the I4 had a front mid motor. The longer I6 extended past the front axle so I guess it wasn't front mid. Funny, I would have assumed both were front engined since the engine was in front of the passenger compartment.
BTW, I think the Corvette motor is behind the front axle line though it would make virtually no difference if it wasn't.
[B]The best American supercars were Chaparral's because in the company's short racing life they were as innovative as any racing company in history[/B].[/quote]
That's probably true, but they never made a street version, did they?
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The source of all knowledge says it's the position of the centre of mass of the engine which makes the difference between FR and FMR, in which case I'd guess that the ZR1 is FMR.
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[quote=Kitdy;951841]The source of all knowledge says it's the position of the centre of mass of the engine which makes the difference between FR and FMR, in which case I'd guess that the ZR1 is FMR.[/quote]
If the Viper can pull it off I'm sure the Vette can. It's all semantics anyways. Speaking of the Viper, if the ZR1 is at all in the running I'd like to nominate the ACR. It takes advantage of aerodynamics to create downforce (even the top of the line ZR1 still creates lift) of 1200 lb at top speed and 1,000 at 150 mph. Even the base Viper makes 100, for that matter. Plus it's just more bad ass. :cool:
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[quote=wwgkd;951844]If the Viper can pull it off I'm sure the Vette can. It's all semantics anyways. Speaking of the Viper, if the ZR1 is at all in the running I'd like to nominate the ACR. It takes advantage of aerodynamics to create downforce (even the top of the line ZR1 still creates lift) of 1200 lb at top speed and 1,000 at 150 mph. Even the base Viper makes 100, for that matter. Plus it's just more bad ass. :cool:[/quote]
Ehhhh... I liked the Viper when it came out as it was crazy and I was a lad, then I cooled. Now I like it again, but I can't help shake that at heart, I prefer the Corvette. I prefer the engine, I prefer the heritage, I prefer the fact that it was a huge deal - I was really pulling for GM at that time after disliking the company for most of my life. I saw the ZR1 at NAIAS the year of it's launch... I dunno, I just dig it.
The ACR is awesome though. Hmm... What about a very limited run end of the line street legal track special ZR1?
It won't happen, but it'd be cool.
EDIT: You are just a Mopar fanboy.
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I dont think cars like hennessy, saleen, mosler, SSC ultimate aero, and other overblown kit cars like that should be considered "american supercars". They are kit cars with super car performance, and they are made in America.
I think its a tossup between latest Viper ACR and the Corvette ZR-1. I think the Corvette wins even though the viper may be faster. The zr-1 seems to have the supercar mystique that the viper lacks.
And who cares if the ZR-1 isn't technically "front mid engined". The whole point of any type of mid engined car is to get good weight distribution and the vette achieves that without a "mid engined" layout.
I do think the Ford GT is in the running too. Just due to its great styling and rarity.
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I wouldn't call it a supercar, but my vote would go to the Z06 in the modern age, just pipping the Devon GTX (my favorite Viper derivative).
In the past I think I would also have to give it to one of Jim Hall's creations, though I don't think any of those made it to the street?
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[quote=Kitdy;951847]Ehhhh... I liked the Viper when it came out as it was crazy and I was a lad, then I cooled. Now I like it again, but I can't help shake that at heart, I prefer the Corvette. I prefer the engine, I prefer the heritage, I prefer the fact that it was a huge deal - I was really pulling for GM at that time after disliking the company for most of my life. I saw the ZR1 at NAIAS the year of it's launch... I dunno, I just dig it.
The ACR is awesome though. Hmm... What about a very limited run end of the line street legal track special ZR1?
It won't happen, but it'd be cool.
EDIT: You are just a Mopar fanboy.[/quote]
True. Still, the Viper is more my kind of car even if I were a GM fanboy.
[quote=roosterjuicer;951849]I dont think cars like hennessy, saleen, mosler, SSC ultimate aero, and other overblown kit cars like that should be considered "american supercars". They are kit cars with super car performance, and they are made in America.
I think its a tossup between latest Viper ACR and the Corvette ZR-1. I think the Corvette wins even though the viper may be faster. The zr-1 seems to have the supercar mystique that the viper lacks.
And who cares if the ZR-1 isn't technically "front mid engined". The whole point of any type of mid engined car is to get good weight distribution and the vette achieves that without a "mid engined" layout.
I do think the Ford GT is in the running too. Just due to its great styling and rarity.[/quote]
If the Saleen is a kit car, then so is a Zonda. It has more engineering and development behind it than anything not from a major company like Ferrari, Porsche or Lamborghini. It had far more than the Ford GT which was a rush job and showed why that can sometimes bite you in the butt.
The Corvette is more comfortable and better suited to daily driving, which is why more people like it and why it has more mystique (plus a long running fanbase). If that's what floats your boat then that's fine.
If I spend $100,000 on a sportscar then I want to drive it, not worry about whether or not I can take it shopping or if it has a place for my latte. Purity has it's place.
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For some reason, the Zonda is right above the kit car line to me while the s7 is right below it.
I cant back that up with any data or evidence and perhaps I've just been brainwashed by Zonda looks over the years. I do think looks has a lot to do with it, cars that I perceive as a kit car all seem to look somewhat similar with huge air ducts and super flash without any class. Perhaps the I sense some class in the zonda that i dont see in the others?
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[quote=Kitdy;951841]The source of all knowledge says it's the position of the centre of mass of the engine which makes the difference between FR and FMR, in which case I'd guess that the ZR1 is FMR.[/quote]
Wouldn't that make just about every front engine, RWD car a front mid setup. I mean how many actually have the center of the motor (the approximate location of the CG) ahead of the axle line?
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[quote=culver;951857]Wouldn't that make just about every front engine, RWD car a front mid setup. I mean how many actually have the center of the motor (the approximate location of the CG) ahead of the axle line?[/quote]
Audis. And they're proud of that for some reason.
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[quote=culver;951857]Wouldn't that make just about every front engine, RWD car a front mid setup. I mean how many actually have the center of the motor (the approximate location of the CG) ahead of the axle line?[/quote]
Yes.
[quote=wwgkd;951858]Audis. And they're proud of that for some reason.[/quote]
Yes.
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[quote=wwgkd;951858]Audis. And they're proud of that for some reason.[/quote]
I can't think of any RWD Audis but yes, they and Subies basically have the engine CG in front of the front wheels. Then again their cars seem to be built like a FWD rather than a RWD car like the AWD BMW, Infinity and Caddy models. I don't mean how they route torque through the AWD system but how they lay out the chassis.
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I would usually be the first person to start saying things like Saleen or Hennessey, but I have to say I really like the ZR1. I don't usually like American sports cars or Corvette's but the ZR1 is just an awesome machine. It looks good, it has the power, the performance and it will out do cars many times its cost. I think of the ZR1 as comparable to a Hennessey or Saleen in terms of rareness but (if you were in America at least) having it breakdown wouldn't be an issue because I assume Chevrolet dealers are everywhere.
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If keeping the discussion to contemporary products, this is easy: Corvette ZR1. As great as it is, the Ford GT loses by being more expensive vis-a-vis performance, and specialty makers like Saleen or Mosler fall a distant third when total costs are considered. No doubt, these are all impressive and exceptional cars, but the Corvette does it better for considerably less money and fuss. I would almost include the Viper coupe as an option, but it's no longer in production and simply not as civilized as the ZR1.
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[quote=csl177;951880]If keeping the discussion to contemporary products, this is easy: Corvette ZR1. As great as it is, the Ford GT loses by being more expensive vis-a-vis performance, and specialty makers like Saleen or Mosler fall a distant third when total costs are considered. No doubt, these are all impressive and exceptional cars, but the Corvette does it better for considerably less money and fuss. I would almost include the Viper coupe as an option, but it's no longer in production and simply not as civilized as the ZR1.[/quote]
are Saleens still being produced? I mean the mid engined ones.
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Its not hard to steal the show by squeezing massive power out of an engine and shoe-horning it into the same car that every other guy going through a midlife crisis already owns. That's where the credentials debate comes back into play. Can you call it a supercar?
The Ford GT, although not as balls-to-the-walls as the Corvette, was a limited production car that was completely original albeit based on a 60's Le Mans racecar, and not just a corvette on steroids. It may have a muscle car heartbeat, but the fact that it was truly such a special production car makes it far more worthy of supercar status than the Über vette. So the corvette has power, but what is power if its not joined by exclusivity and wow factor? I'm sure there's civis out there with 700 horsepower too. There's nothing super about them though.
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[quote=henk4;951884]are Saleens still being produced? I mean the mid engined ones.[/quote]
Did they make them any other way?
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[quote=DesmoRob;951887]Did they make them any other way?[/quote]
I thought they also produced some Mustang derivatives, but that the whole company went bust a couple of years ago.
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Whoops. You may be right... OK, that leaves Moslers. I stand by my earlier comments.
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[quote=henk4;951889]I thought they also produced some Mustang derivatives, but that the whole company went bust a couple of years ago.[/quote]
sorry, yes the Saleen mustangs are a dime a dozen out there. I had completely forgotten about them. I assumed we were still talking about the S7. I'm unsure if Saleen went under or not. The last I remember seeing from them was their revised version of the '05 Mustang body style when it first came out. For what its worth, that was actually quite nice.
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Factory Five GTM. If the car really matches the performance claims, it should be totally bonkers.
Otherwise, I'd say Dodge Viper ACR because of it's track abilities.
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Can the AC Cobra and Ford GT40 be counted as true American Super Cars!?.
Both chassis are developed in England, and "just" mounted with an American engine.
If i where to chose a "100%" American Super Car i would chose the original Viper! (Mostly because of it's Le Mans domination)
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[quote=DesmoRob;951886]The Ford GT, although not as balls-to-the-walls as the Corvette, was a limited production car that was completely original albeit based on a 60's Le Mans racecar, and not just a corvette on steroids.[/quote]
Limited to over 5.000 units iirc...
There are more exclusive Mustangs put there :D
Well done Ford!
JK, I for some reason like the GT, even if I was quite unimpressed when I saw one (in Gulf livery).
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I really love the Saleen but the question was what's the best not what's your favorite so i have to say the Ford GT. Reasons being like what everyone else stated. Low production, heritage, sufficient power, heritage, great modern take on a retro design, and heritage. :)
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[quote=DesmoRob;951886]Its not hard to steal the show by squeezing massive power out of an engine and shoe-horning it into the same car that every other guy going through a midlife crisis already owns. That's where the credentials debate comes back into play. Can you call it a supercar?
The Ford GT, although not as balls-to-the-walls as the Corvette, was a limited production car that was completely original albeit based on a 60's Le Mans racecar, and not just a corvette on steroids. It may have a muscle car heartbeat, but the fact that it was truly such a special production car makes it far more worthy of supercar status than the Über vette. So the corvette has power, but what is power if its not joined by exclusivity and wow factor? I'm sure there's civis out there with 700 horsepower too. There's nothing super about them though.[/quote]
While I think a great deal of the Corvette, this is basically how I feel as well. Just as, no mater how good a 911 GT2 RS might be, I still see it as another 911, I see the ZR-1 as another Corvette; a very good one with great technology but a Corvette and thus it shares some of it's heart and sole with a great $50k car.
The Ford GT was a great stand alone car. Yes, the motor wasn't truly unique to the car as it was based on the Ford family V8. The V8, wasn't just a truck V8 as I believe it was the only 5.4L alloy block motor in a production Ford at the time. Anyway, while the ZR1 is a truly impressive car, it's just a range topping Vette. The 911 GT2 RS is a range topping 911. It seems to be just a bit more special when the bottom of the range is still in the exotic world as is the case with the GT.
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The SSC thing. Because AFAIK it's the only contemporary american supercar (except for even smaller manufacturers).
The ZR1 is just a (very fast) sportscar.
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[quote=Ferrer;951982]The SSC thing. Because AFAIK it's the only contemporary american supercar (except for even smaller manufacturers).
[/quote]
And unfortunately it's a joke...
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[quote=culver;951963]While I think a great deal of the Corvette, this is basically how I feel as well. Just as, no mater how good a 911 GT2 RS might be, I still see it as another 911, I see the ZR-1 as another Corvette; a very good one with great technology but a Corvette and thus it shares some of it's heart and sole with a great $50k car.
The Ford GT was a great stand alone car. Yes, the motor wasn't truly unique to the car as it was based on the Ford family V8. The V8, wasn't just a truck V8 as I believe it was the only 5.4L alloy block motor in a production Ford at the time. Anyway, while the ZR1 is a truly impressive car, it's just a range topping Vette. The 911 GT2 RS is a range topping 911. It seems to be just a bit more special when the bottom of the range is still in the exotic world as is the case with the GT.[/quote]
Except the 911 GT2 RS is even more exclusive, faster on the track, and, its a Porsche.
Actually, the GT used the same iron block used in the f150. Plus the supercharger and aluminum heads.