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used for chassie tubs (& bodywork) in the Alfa Romeo 4C , ive read that Alfa Romeo want to build 40,000 a year along with even more roadster versions
is this just a dream figure spawned from their sales hopes ?!?
is production numbers like that possible in Carbon Fibre ?
[quote=Badsight;961362]used for chassie tubs (& bodywork) in the Alfa Romeo 4C , ive read that Alfa Romeo want to build 40,000 a year along with even more roadster versions
is this just a dream figure spawned from their sales hopes ?!?
is production numbers like that possible in Carbon Fibre ?[/quote]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]I think it’s possible, although it depends how many they actually want to make. I know a lot of supercar companies are using it more now. But in a more mass produced car I still think it’s possible, because people know a lot more about carbon fibre and are using it a lot more in supercars. Also we now have the equipment to develop it. I hope they can make this car because it may be the start of mass produced carbon fibre cars. [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
If the tub is simple enough you can do robotic layup, or do it in sections as in the case of Toyota's LFA. Then just bond the sections together.
[quote=RacingManiac;961403]If the tub is simple enough you can do robotic layup, or do it in sections as in the case of Toyota's LFA. Then just bond the sections together.[/quote]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]I expect the tube will be quite simple. I can’t see them making a very complicated one like Pagani.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[quote=RacingManiac;961403]If the tub is simple enough you can do robotic layup, or do it in sections as in the case of Toyota's LFA. Then just bond the sections together.[/quote]
well i know some things are robotised when it comes to the weaving , but in large flat sections & panels ?
my understanding is that tubs are largly hand laid still ?
[quote=thebrochureman;961416][I expect the tube will be quite simple. I can’t see them making a very complicated one like Pagani[/quote]
no disrepect , but your 16
have a go at making some stuff first out of fibreglass , youll see how hard it can get
Robotics make producing any CF tub design possible; just need autoclaves large enough to handle volume.
[quote=csl177;961428]Robotics make producing any CF tub design possible; just need autoclaves large enough to handle volume.[/quote]
That's also the largest bottleneck in the process. Either they must get a new kind of autoclave suitable for large volumes, which is not probable, or just a lot of autoclaves.
I think it might be sales-talk. It's probably in part a CF tub. The most realistic way would probably be to use certain prefab-sections bolted or glued together on a aluminium frame.
[quote=Badsight;961427]well i know some things are robotised when it comes to the weaving , but in large flat sections & panels ?
my understanding is that tubs are largly hand laid still ?
no disrepect , but your 16
have a go at making some stuff first out of fibreglass , youll see how hard it can get[/quote]
I did'nt say it was easy, but Pagani have gone to greater lenths with their Carrbon fibre. For example Carbon-Titanium.
And they charge 1 million Euro for their car....
$$ makes a lot of things possible. When you have to sell a $40k car, it makes that a lot harder, if you want to make profit with that kind of price.
[quote=RacingManiac;961482]And they charge 1 million Euro for their car....
$$ makes a lot of things possible. When you have to sell a $40k car, it makes that a lot harder, if you want to make profit with that kind of price.[/quote]
[COLOR=#000033][FONT=Verdana]I was try to make the point that Alfa aren’t going to use such expensive and complicated methods as Pagani, and that I thinks it’s possible for them to produce a mass produced carbon fibre car. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[quote=thebrochureman;961491][COLOR=#000033][FONT=Verdana]I was try to make the point that Alfa aren’t going to use such expensive and complicated methods as Pagani, and that I thinks it’s possible for them to produce a mass produced carbon fibre car. [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]
Pagani's method is quite ordinary and old fashioned. The fact they use a different material doesn't make it that much more complicated or expensive per se. Indeed the price bump was mainly due to limited editions and such.
Only a few tricks make their process "different", but that's not something complicated, knowing what I'm talking about.
Adding a white soft fabric in the vacuum bag isn't high tech, but makes quite a difference. And it's cheap.
The very geometry of the tub is pretty simple, Veyron's is more complicated for what I have seen, but it was produced by experts at ATR, now part of the Fiat Group, so even this aspect is "ok".
I believe what McLaren and Lamborghini are doing is much more expensive as an initial investment, even if cheaper and quicker considering each chassis, so allowing you to make more of them at a cheaper price overall (4.500 MP4-12C per year is quite something).
I guess the KTM chassis was designed and built in the usual old way, so it would be intresting to know what Dallara is going to change to make it mass producible.
I just read an article by Gordan Murray in Road & Track this month about this very thing. He was saying high volume output of carbon fiber is something he has been working on and that between the McLaren F1 and Mercedes SLR he's dropped like £64,000 from the cost of producing a carbon fiber chassis.
He also said his work on that funny looking city car (the name escapes me ATM) is looking into further dropping the cost.
Basically, my understanding of it was based on what apoxy you use you could mass-produce carbon fiber for a relatively low price, provided you had the right oven too.
T.25 and T.27 (electric version) is the name of the cars.
Also, when we are considering this kind of cars, less performing and powerful, what's mroe important is safety rather the pure performance even from a structural point of view.
So we are more talking about CF reinforced plastics, rather the pure CF or carbo-titanium if you prefer. And that's going to cut the costs quite a lot. The BMW project should show that maybe sooner than others.
Mclaren is another point, although a far smaller company they are expecting to make 1000 MP4's a year.
If we give the factory 3 weeks holidays, that's 1000 in 49 weeks, or just over 20 per week.
That to me sounds doable. Say Alfa runs all 52 weeks non-stop - thats still 770 tubs/bodys per week. & thats just the hardtop.
To make something complex cost less , you need volume. Ill be amazed if Alfa are going to achieve this volume level considering its carbon fibre.
[quote=ScionDriver;961494]I just read an article by Gordan Murray in Road & Track this month about this very thing. He was saying high volume output of carbon fiber is something he has been working on and that between the McLaren F1 and Mercedes SLR he's dropped like £64,000 from the cost of producing a carbon fiber chassis.
He also said his work on that funny looking city car (the name escapes me ATM) is looking into further dropping the cost.
Basically, my understanding of it was based on what apoxy you use you could mass-produce carbon fiber for a relatively low price, provided you had the right oven too.[/quote]
[quote=LeonOfTheDead;961504]T.25 and T.27 (electric version) is the name of the cars.
Also, when we are considering this kind of cars, less performing and powerful, what's mroe important is safety rather the pure performance even from a structural point of view.
So we are more talking about CF reinforced plastics, rather the pure CF or carbo-titanium if you prefer. And that's going to cut the costs quite a lot. The BMW project should show that maybe sooner than others.[/quote]
Moore's Law applies to all technologies. ;)