Our world has always been a violent place. let's not kid ourselves.
It just wasn't televised 100 years ago.
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Our world has always been a violent place. let's not kid ourselves.
It just wasn't televised 100 years ago.
[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;695290]Our world has always been a violent place. let's not kid ourselves.
It just wasn't televised 100 years ago.[/QUOTE]
true.
There's a price to pay for civilisation, i guess.
[QUOTE]The Wild, Wild, West was a VERY polite place, because
all the idiots died.
[/QUOTE]
Civilisation? i find nothing civil about the way some of the world is right now.
Its horrifying to hear these sorts of things, my thoughts are with the families and friends of all those involved.
Whether its because of society these days, or whether these sorts of people were around before too, but I think its largely down to the availability of guns in the US. The UK must have its fair share of psychos too, but the only thing they had available to them was some flour and fertiliser. Surely the US will have to do something drastic about the gun culture there, seems the licence method clearly isnt working.
And as far as I hate to admit it, games do have an effect on you. My sis was playing GTA the other day, and later on we went out for dinner, and passed a police car. No joke, she said she actually felt like saying 'its the cops, dont do anything crazy'. obviously she laughed at this later, but it is scary that games can have that much of an effect of even normal people, where the lines between reality and game become ever so slightly blurred. So imagine the people who already have issues with their mental state, playing games such as GTA where you are controlling someone to your every whim can so easily tip them over the edge. Im not saying its completely down to this, and I dont have a way of resolving this either, but you have to realise where the influences for these people are coming from. If a person has never heard of GTA and running around shooting people, then surely that idea will never crop up.
Not that much info is feeding through just yet, but it does seem the Uni made a mistake in not informing students after the first shooting incident which happened 2 hours before the main one as regards to fatalities.
I still think that it is mind boggling to know that other countries that have more guns per person can manage to have less gun related deaths...
Look at canada they have alot more guns per person but only 100th the gun related killings a year...?
makes you wonder what the f**k is wrong with the US?
I agree - they should really have shut the university down.
but have you - either of you - read anything about what was previously said in the thread? its so much easier to blame other things than the actual person. to try and make sense of tragedy. sometimes you just have to accept some people are F'ed up.
[QUOTE=RazaBlade;695295]
And as far as I hate to admit it, games do have an effect on you. My sis was playing GTA the other day, and later on we went out for dinner, and passed a police car. No joke, she said she actually felt like saying 'its the cops, dont do anything crazy'. obviously she laughed at this later, but it is scary that games can have that much of an effect of even normal people, where the lines between reality and game become ever so slightly blurred. So imagine the people who already have issues with their mental state, playing games such as GTA where you are controlling someone to your every whim can so easily tip them over the edge. Im not saying its completely down to this, and I dont have a way of resolving this either, but you have to realise where the influences for these people are coming from. If a person has never heard of GTA and running around shooting people, then surely that idea will never crop up. [/QUOTE]
I don't think so. If someone's already crazy, I doubt playing a game like Grand Theft Auto will immediately throw them over the edge and force them to go on a shooting spree. My guess about this story is that the kid was an engineer (he shot up an engineering department building), got fed up with the workload and deadlines, so he took it out on classmates and innocent people.
Theres speculation as to whether or not he was even a student at the University.
Right now it's all innuendo and hearsay.
[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;695305]Theres speculation as to whether or not he was even a student at the University.
Right now it's all innuendo and hearsay.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I know that. It was just my guess.
With an educated guess like that sir, i suggest you call up the Local news channel and get a guest spot as a "Behavioural expert" or some other crap.
You could make some money.
[quote=Fleet 500;695206]The only way to stop gun deaths is to ban mentally unbalanced people and that's impossible.[/quote]
Well we got a pretty good attempt at it here. I informed at a shooting range once on how much it'd take to buy a gun legally.
Step 1:
Fill in a form and show your identification in threefold
Step 2:
Have atleast three sessions with a psychologist so he can diagnose you properly.
Step 3:
Then wait atleast 6 months until you may handle a gun. You get a session on a shooting range to practice safety rules. You then have to fill in a (apparently) hard theory exam.
If anyone has doubts about your abilities in any of these steps you have no chance of getting it and cant apply again for 5 years. You have to undergo annual check-ups at the psychologists,if you get it.
Does that help, you think ?
The biggest problem it seems is in the constant atmosphere of fear in the USA especially. The government makes it seem like the threat can come from everywhere and that can make a normal kid go radical !
We have had incidents at schools too. Most recently a non-fatal stabbing. I think we never had a mass shoot-out. For kids/teenagers with their extra hefty emotions it is pretty hard to get a gun if not impossible. Even in the illegal scene a 9mm with 10 bullits costs you atleast 5000 euro.
By the time a gun gets into reach, they have grown up and gotten much more responsible.
Just my 2 Cents. Go ahead and flame me.
I have to disagree slightly on one point. The REAL pyschos will cleverly disguise himself to the psychologist. They know what they want to hear, and they will say it.
You triggered another point of mine, weve (the UK) have had a ridiculous amount of fatal school stabbings recently, but I suppose the good point to take from that is that because we dont have guns, thank god its limited to just knives at the moment.
[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;695307]With an educated guess like that sir, i suggest you call up the Local news channel and get a guest spot as a "Behavioural expert" or some other crap.
You could make some money.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't be a bad idea. I could also blame this all on the war in Iraq and gain a spot as a Democratic candidate in the 2008 election.
I just realized I know a far family member studies there. I hope I will hear anythng soon.
Rocke '08! Free Hookers and Blow for all!
It just occurred to me that if all other students had also been carrying guns, the allegedly one attacker could have been dealt with much earlier........
[QUOTE=hightower99;695299]I still think that it is mind boggling to know that other countries that have more guns per person can manage to have less gun related deaths...
Look at canada they have alot more guns per person but only 100th the gun related killings a year...?
makes you wonder what the f**k is wrong with the US?[/QUOTE]
yes, but you guys have a pretty big population, more chance of nutcases i would think?
and the anti-gun committee complaisn that 1 in 4 households here have a firearm..i'll let you figure out how they got that average ;)
[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;695307]With an educated guess like that sir, i suggest you call up the Local news channel and get a guest spot as a "Behavioural expert" or some other crap.
You could make some money.[/QUOTE]
probably already begun....
[QUOTE=drakkie;695308]Well we got a pretty good attempt at it here. I informed at a shooting range once on how much it'd take to buy a gun legally.
Step 1:
Fill in a form and show your identification in threefold
Step 2:
Have atleast three sessions with a psychologist so he can diagnose you properly.
Step 3:
Then wait atleast 6 months until you may handle a gun. You get a session on a shooting range to practice safety rules. You then have to fill in a (apparently) hard theory exam.
If anyone has doubts about your abilities in any of these steps you have no chance of getting it and cant apply again for 5 years. You have to undergo annual check-ups at the psychologists,if you get it.
Does that help, you think ?
[/QUOTE]
that seems too far in the other direction - here, it starts with education at the rifle range at an early age (in my case with the junior club at age 11).
You can't actually own a firearm, you use the ones at the range (they have a set of firearms specifically for the use of juniors) under the charge of some old timers who educate on the handling, ethics, safety etc.
When you turn 18 you can get a license, only after spending 6 months as a member of a rifle range/club, and only after completeing a compulsory 2 day course with exam. Your license may arrive 3-12 months later once the police have done the necesary checks.
You then have to get a permit to acquire a firearm, at which point you have to state your intended use for it and the address where it will be stored.
28 days later you can pick the weapon up (not a problem later when you already have a weapon in your possession).
Then the police rock up in the next 3 months to check your storage facilities ;)
this is disturbing:
[QUOTE]He shot himself in the back of the head at a downward angle purposely to make identification harder. He also scratched off the serial numbers on the pistol to make it harder (almost impossible) to trace where he got the weapon / Identify himself.
They are beginning to suspect that he was the guy who called bomb threats to the school to test the university polices response time.[/QUOTE]
This is beginning to sound like someone very calculated.
It's hard to accept someone so intelligent is capable of such cruel acts - it doesn't fit to the "psycho killer" randomness that many school attacks have.
The question is still why though.
can't help but think he was trying to become infamous by doing such an excessive spree :(
That's well messed up.
[QUOTE=henk4;695286]I haven't read the whole thread, but I think this already deserves an answer. The current level of fatalaties is about similar to the number of civilian people who die in Iraq every day...[/QUOTE]
Henk according to General Barry R McCaffey, US Army (retired) and now an adjunct professor at West Point who visited Bahgdad last month, there are ..
[quote]3,000 civilians murdered per month in Iraq
2,900 Improvised Explosive Device attacks
The US has arrested 100,000 "insurgents", detained another 27,000 and killed 20,000-plus. US losses in Iraq exceed 27,000 killed or wounded, with Iraqi Security Force losses of 49,000 within the last 14 months[/quote]
(not trying to turn this into an anti-US Iraq debate, merely supplying correct info to Henk)
[QUOTE=nota;695356]Henk according to General Barry R McCaffey, US Army (retired) and now an adjunct professor at West Point who visited Bahgdad last month, there are ..
(not trying to turn this into an anti-US Iraq debate, merely supplying correct info to Henk)[/QUOTE]
much appreciated:)
[QUOTE=hightower99;695228]
I am surprised that nobody had a gun of there own and used it for self protection.
[/QUOTE]
Its illegal to have a gun on campus even if you have a concealed handgun license. And i dont believe its legal to have a concealed handgun in every state.
Actually many students want to change that because if someone knows there is a high possibility other people have guns on campus they most likely wont go shooting there.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
and the M.A.D situation did wonders for global politics RE: the US vs USSR.....
Oh.. wow. I just got a phone call 5 minutes ago from my mom while watching television. A guy by the name of Matt La Porte from my home town, a person I knew before high school, is one of the victims of the shooting.
He's been confirmed dead.
Oh wow. thats heavy.
Sorry Dude. to you and His family. no one deserves to go out like that.
[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;695405]Oh wow. thats heavy.
Sorry Dude. to you and His family. no one deserves to go out like that.[/QUOTE]
I definitely will send condolences out to the family, as I'm sure everyone here will as well. It's just odd that it hit so close to home when my town has about 15,000 people, and of those, about 300 being of my grade level. (He was the same age as me)
It's just one of those things, I suppose.
Latest reports Suggest that they're is the possibility of two shooters. the Main assailant is now believed to be an On-Campus asian student. among the dead are two lecturers in the Engineering faculty.
There have been Bizarre reports of him wearing what appeared to be a Scouts outfit.
Other reports suggest the violent nature of the attack - with a hospital official saying that each victim had at least three bullets shot into their bodies.
This is very, very sad.
[quote=hightower99;695228]Actually in a situation where some lunatic walks into my classroom and without warning starts blasting people away I would probably try to use my desk to protect myself (here in denmark they are 1X2 meters and made from 3cm of highly compressed wood on a 4mm steel plate)
I am surprised that nobody had a gun of there own and used it for self protection.
and how did he get close enough to kill over 30 people with a 9mm and a .22?
I mean a .22 is not going to kill you unless he hits you directly in the heart or head and even the 9mm has very little effect past 40-50 meters.
[/quote]
Have you ever been to a popular university? In some places, mostly student centers, there is a massive amount of students in one place at one time. I go to a small state school and during peak hours of activity on campus its very crowded in the student union and even in dorm lobbies, and academic halls. Now take a big school like VT that has thousands more students on campus, if you shoot randomly into a crowd the chances are your going to hit someone and cause injury.
[QUOTE=Rockefella]Oh.. wow. I just got a phone call 5 minutes ago from my mom while watching television. A guy by the name of Matt La Porte from my home town, a person I knew before high school, is one of the victims of the shooting.
He's been confirmed dead.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to hear that dude
[QUOTE=Rockefella]I don't think so. If someone's already crazy, I doubt playing a game like Grand Theft Auto will immediately throw them over the edge and force them to go on a shooting spree. My guess about this story is that the kid was an engineer (he shot up an engineering department building), got fed up with the workload and deadlines, so he took it out on classmates and innocent people.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with you here. I can see video games potentially causing problems with middle school students or even younger high school students, but this kid was in college, unless he was mentally insane (which I doubt greatly) then he knew what he was doing, and also knew the consequences of his actions. Thus the suicide.
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Rockefella[/B]
Oh.. wow. I just got a phone call 5 minutes ago from my mom while watching television. A guy by the name of Matt La Porte from my home town, a person I knew before high school, is one of the victims of the shooting.
He's been confirmed dead.[/QUOTE]
Rocke, I am sorry to hear that. Condolences to his family. I was worried when I heard about the shooting because one of my close female friends is studying at an American university/college as an exchange student. She's in Buffalo, New York though.
I want to express my condolences to the families and the friends of the 32 Virginia Tech. students.
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html[/url]
[IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42812000/jpg/_42812241_cho203i.jpg[/IMG]
Well, this is the guy behind the massacre. Cho Seung-hui, a 23 year old English major from South Korea. It seems he left a note behind in his dorm room explaining some of his reasons, the nature of which has been described as "disturbing". Apparently he had also been referred to counselling after producing "troubled" work in his creative writing class.
It seems any possibility of there being a second gunman or an accomplice has been dismissed. Just one loner with a deeply disturbed mind who flipped out one day and went on a rampage. :(
I dont know if this has been covered already, but i did notice alot of you arguing about whether guns should be allowed or not
anyways my point was going to be that there are 110 million guns, not including military...just personally owned guns in America
so there is absolutely no way there is ever going to be no guns
I personally believe it's the person that kills...not the gun
[QUOTE=Rockefella;695400]Oh.. wow. I just got a phone call 5 minutes ago from my mom while watching television. A guy by the name of Matt La Porte from my home town, a person I knew before high school, is one of the victims of the shooting.
He's been confirmed dead.[/QUOTE]
That's terrible. I'm very sorry to hear that; my condolences. :(
There's always been a rivalry between the University of Virginia and Virginia Tech, but it shouldn't be surprising that that's not the case for today. There are a lot of people over here who know people at Tech.
[QUOTE=Jack_Bauer;695460]Well, this is the guy behind the massacre. Cho Seung-hui, a 23 year old English major from South Korea. It seems he left a note behind in his dorm room explaining some of his reasons, the nature of which has been described as "disturbing". Apparently he had also been referred to counselling after producing "troubled" work in his creative writing class.
It seems any possibility of there being a second gunman or an accomplice has been dismissed. Just one loner with a deeply disturbed mind who flipped out one day and went on a rampage. :([/QUOTE]
Just looking at the picture he looks sick:( Not to start a debate but if more normal people had guns his kill count whould be far less!
[quote=ScionDriver;694987]This is an awful tragedy and unfortunately in the end there will be stricter security measures at campuses across the nation and still no one will quit eunderstand why these things happpen.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, the survivors, and their families.[/quote]
Indeed. Here is part of an email I received from the Dean of students on my campus.
[QUOTE]"Today's tragedy impacts all of us in higher education and causes us to
reinforce our commitment to campus safety. I know that each of you are
extraordinarily sensitive to this issue and that you will be taking all
appropriate steps to continually address safety issues and to reassure
your campus community as well as parents and local community members
that our campuses are safe and secure.
As the tragedy at Virginia Tech is reviewed, we will also be reviewing
University safety policies to ensure that we continually improve safety
and security."[/QUOTE]
Just what I need more rent-a-cops writing parking tickets at 1:30 in the morning.
I know you guys don"t like pictures but this is the shooter of all that were killed
My condolences to all the families of the victims and the people involved. I just hope everyone here is well and accounted for.
[QUOTE=Rockefella;695400]Oh.. wow. I just got a phone call 5 minutes ago from my mom while watching television. A guy by the name of Matt La Porte from my home town, a person I knew before high school, is one of the victims of the shooting.
He's been confirmed dead.[/QUOTE]It sucks to hear that. :(
[QUOTE=Coventrysucks;695139]There have been 19 school shootings in 10 years in the USA.
There is a problem there, that isn't being experienced or replicated elsewhere in the world.
That problem needs to be identified and addressed, otherwise the matter is just being swept under the rug. "Our kids are turning into murderous nut-jobs, but as long as we can keep them away from guns: mission accomplished!"
The fact is that kids shouldn't be attempting to murder in the first place.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Egg Nog;695253]It's both. It's not just one or the other. You need a maniac to kill a person and a tool to do it with. With a gun, murder is simple. It's not like in developed countries where guns are illegal there are various knife murders (etc) to bring the country up to the US average. You'd be an idiot not to recognize that there's a correletion. Do you think the lunatics behind the Virginia Tech tragedy could've done it with a knife? A sword? A Bat?
A huge number of murders in the US are cases of domestic violence. You can see how it might be a heat-of-the-moment type of deal; if the same situation happens and there's no gun around, people don't really seem to go for the other methods. Guns make killing a person extremely easy, so they're dangerous at points of high tension.[/QUOTE]Quoted you both to show I agree as to what is the core of the problem.
When it comes to the gun control debate there are a few things we need to keep in mind. I'm willing to bet that in well over 90% of the killings with a gun the assailant wouldn't have been capable to do it with another weapon or by hand.
Home owner vs burglar - it's a fact that the guns in the houses have been misused many times more than they were used in the way they were "intended". A gun in a house is many times more likely to go of on a family member than a criminal.
Why sudden legislation changes hasn't given the results that were intended; in a small state like DC one is always relatively close to a relatively unguarded state border and within the largest gun manufacturer on the globe. For that reason there will always be more guns in a state in the US than in a country of the same size in Europe for instance.
In the hands of the criminals the guns also travel across to neighboring countries, like Mexico - hence the availability of guns there. With the rate the US is manufacturing weapons there will be no shortage of guns in the Americas in the near future.
Here in Finland guns are quite rare (on a global comparison), guns are mostly found among hunters, organized criminals and (relatively few) war/gun "enthusiasts". Random people/criminals don't usually carry guns here and most gun deaths here are caused by legally owned guns in combined with alcohol.
edit:
[QUOTE=ANDREW G;695479]I know you guys don"t like pictures but this is the shooter of all that were killed[/QUOTE]
On-topic pictures are more than appreciated.
Apparently he left a note, and i notived it used words only written in scripture, so it was most likely religiously motivated...