Anyone rember Group B?

[MrKipling]

Originally Posted by RacingManiac

The myth has always been there but facts rarely adds up.....how likely it is that for a car with less horsepower, more weight and makes no downforce be as fast as a F1 car on qualifier rubber back in the 80s.....

Not a great deal more weight I shouldn't think. If it was done as a PR stunt, it would have been without spare tyres, navigator etc I would have thought. You could also assume that the S4 would also be on very sticky rubber and it does have 4WD and some downforce - albeit not as much as an F1 car.

Having said that, it could all just be a myth of course!

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by RacingManiac

The myth has always been there but facts rarely adds up.....how likely it is that for a car with less horsepower, more weight and makes no downforce be as fast as a F1 car on qualifier rubber back in the 80s.....

The "myth" has some facts in it.
Toivonen DID run teh S4 on the Estoril circuit ..... BUT it included a loop of gravel, so comparing times isnt' "fair". BUT it was said that the F1 teams stopped their "strutting" when they saw the times Henri posted.

The thing about a GroupB rally car was that the tyres were UNLIMITED. So you could put MUCH wider rubber than F1 permitted. PLUS, there were 4 equal size tyres providing traction and MASSIVE mult-pot brakes in each corner for stopping. The GroupB cars only weighed a couple of hundred kilos more !!!
On top of that latter evolution S4s were reportedly running 1000 hp !!! GroupB cars out-accelerated F1 cars of their day by the numbers

[magracer]

Originally Posted by Markie Boy

...some of the fastest rally and LM racers ever made.

I'm confussed.

Is there really anything such as a Group B LM racers? I thought Group B only applied to rally spec cars not to LM prototypes. Can anyone confirm? Or are we talking about cars in that period of time...

[Jakg]

Originally Posted by Markie Boy

ey did u ever see the porsche 959 moby dick that car was nuts it would blow the doors off any other car today easily it would beat an f1 car in a straight line and i saw a video of it getting pretty far ahead of a porsche gt1 which is very impressive since it has no computer assists.

moby dick was a 70's LM racer, and i highly doubt that it would be faster than an F1 car or Porsche GT1

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by magracer

I'm confussed.

Is there really anything such as a Group B LM racers? I thought Group B only applied to rally spec cars not to LM prototypes. Can anyone confirm? Or are we talking about cars in that period of time...

Group B was intended as a racing AND rally formula.
The race formula never really took off as manufacturers concentrated on the rally cars.

Not sure about Le Mans as it has it's own formulae regulated by ACO.
As GroupB racing was meant to cover the older touring and prototype touring classes, I'm guessing it must have had an equivalent. I'll go look up some Le Mans history books and see. But it'd be neat if we had a fan of GroupB racing here

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Jakg

moby dick was a 70's LM racer, and i highly doubt that it would be faster than an F1 car or Porsche GT1

I thought the engine in the 959 was a derivative of "moby dick" as the water-cooled Porsche competition engine of the time ?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by magracer

I'm confussed.

Is there really anything such as a Group B LM racers? I thought Group B only applied to rally spec cars not to LM prototypes. Can anyone confirm? Or are we talking about cars in that period of time...

the jaguar XJ220 was a prototype group B racer

[Leo_Ant]

In fact, both 911 and 959 won the Dakar and don't tell me it was the same car with different body kits. No matter what critics say, 959 is the only modern car to have won both Dakar and Le Mans.
Foccusing on Group B: yes, I remember seeing a 205 T 16 in Portugal Rally, driven by Ari Vatanen: amazing sound, incredible speed...
Would appreciat good photos of those era cars...Thanks!

[Wouter Melissen]

The 961 won its class at Le Mans.

[Matra et Alpine]

AND the DAKAR cars were 911 bodies, not just "body kits"

The 959 was a great car, just lets not get all fanboy, gushy about it and forget the facts

Use UCP search, you'll find a few posts on the T16 with pics -- Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 for one

[Wouter Melissen]

How is this a 911 body? http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...0&d=1145362006

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen

How is this a 911 body? http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...0&d=1145362006

Because they didnt' use the 959s composite structures not needing to lose weight for the event and instead needing to have absolute strength and damage recovery/repariability and development. I'll look out the reference books and post confirmation.

[Leo_Ant]

Yes, Matra, I tried to tell that, in different years, 911 and 959 won it, even if the 911's were a part of the development of the 959...

[csl177]

This is a short history of Group B that can be found at www.stormloader.com
Hopefully it will answer the queries of some on this thread... after review of some of the motorsports journals of the period, it appears to be an accurate assessment to this reader. As one that watched some of those races, one issue (and still pertinent today) is that rally spectators like to get in the road to watch/photograph the racers as they approach. With the frightening acceleration of the "Killer B's" getting spectators out of the way was something the organizers found hard (impossible?) to control. IMHO it was easier to slow the cars down. I differ with the writer of this article: I miss the B's, they were extraordinary (especially the Audi, RS200 and Metro B), and why not let motorsport stretch the tech? Isn't that part of the engineering mission? Anyway:

The beginning of Group B
Rally cars before the Group B era were, for the most part, rear-wheel-drive with about 250 horsepower, because any more power merely resulted in wheelspin. The two classes at the time were Group 2 and the more popular Group 4. The rules for Group 4 mandated a minimum production run of 400 copies of a car to meet homologation requirements, in order to encourage the manufacturers to use mass-produced cars. Some of the more famous rally cars from this period were the Lancia Stratos, the Fiat 131 Abarth, and the Porsche 911.

However, in 1979, FISA (Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile, the sanctioning body for rallying) legalized all-wheel-drive for rallying. The manufacturers involved in rallying at the time considered four-wheel-drive too heavy and complex to be successful. They were all proven wrong when Audi launched its new Quattro in 1980, and announced its intention to use the 1980 and 1981 seasons as development years. The full potential of four-wheel-drive was realized when Audi pilot Hannu Mikkola used a Quattro as a course opening vehicle for one rally. Had Mikkola been entered, he would have won by nine minutes!

When the Quattro entered (and won) its first rally, the 1980 Janner rally in Austria, most of the other manufacturers in rallying realized the two-wheel-drive era of rallying had come to an end. Audi continued its development during the 1981 season, winning several rounds of the WRC, including the San Remo rally, which was an historic event because it was the first ever international rally won by a woman, Michèle Mouton. 1982 firmly established Audi as the team to beat, although Mouton narrowly lost the driver's crown to Opel rival Walter Röhrl. The 1983 season saw the creation of Groups A and B, and the first real Group B car arrived on the scene - the Lancia 037 Monte Carlo. Audi's first major rival had arrived.

The evolution of Group B
The 037 was different from the Quattro in several key respects - it was supercharged instead of turbocharged, and it still had rear-wheel-drive, due to Lancia's uncertainty about the potential of four-wheel-drive. It was, however, a Group B rally car (the Quattro was still built to the Group 4 specifications), and the new Group B class only required 200 copies of a car for homologation. The Group B rally teams could also produce "evolution" versions of their cars - and only twenty copies would be required! Group B also had minimal weight restrictions, plus the use of high-tech materials was permitted in the construction of the cars. These elements, plus manufacturers with unlimited resources, allowed Group B to evolve extremely quickly. The cars' performance levels increased at a rapid pace.

The new 037 was instantly at a disadvantage due to its lack of four-wheel-drive. Four-wheel-drive allowed Audi to run with a lot more power, due to the increased traction. Four-wheel-drive also proved to be much gentler on the tires, so Audi could run much softer compounds and further increase its traction. However, the Quattro had a number of flaws which allowed the 037 to win the Manufacturer's title in 1983: the Quattro was unreliable, it was clumsy and unwieldy to drive, and its front-engine, monocoque chassis was soon rendered obsolete by the mid-engine, space frame design of the Peugeot 205 T16, the new king of the hill once it arrived at the Tour de Corse rally in 1984.

The 205 T16's pace in Corsica shocked the rally community. Peugeot had built a strong team, with Ari Vatanen as the driver and Jean Todt (now the manager of the Ferrari F1 team) running the rally program. Vatanen crashed out of the Corsican rally, but went on to give the 205 its first win at the 1000 Lakes rally in Finland later that year. By this time, Audi had introduced its Sport Quattro, while the 037 was already showing its age. Peugeot looked set to walk away with the 1985 titles after an impressive year of preparation during 1984.

Peugeot did dominate most of the 1985 season, but things didn't go according to plan. Peugeot lost Ari Vatanen in a near-fatal crash in Argentina, but his teammate Timo Salonen took up the challenge and brought both titles to Peugeot. However, the 1985 RAC rally saw a whole pack of new challengers hungry to challenge Peugeot's dominance. Lancia debuted its new Delta S4, which was supercharged and turbocharged, Ford unveiled the RS200, Austin-Metro launched its new Metro 6R4, Audi entered its radical S1 Quattro, and Peugeot countered the newcomers with the 205 T16 Evolution 2. Lancia's new S4 came away with first and second places; by this point, wings had to be added to the cars to keep them on the road.

The end of Group B
The pace of technology in Group B was astounding, but FISA was planning Group S. Group S was to be a class which would allow manufacturers to produce highly futuristic cars, and only ten copies would be required for homologation. However, the inevitable finally happened: during the 1986 Port Wine rally in Portugal, a Ford RS200 left the road on a spectator stage, killing three and injuring dozens; after the crash, all the works teams withdrew from the rally. But the final blow for Group B came on May 4, 1986.

Lancia's lead driver, Henri Toivonen, was dominating the 1986 championship and the Tour de Corse rally when his S4 left the road during a twisty tarmac stage. The car went off the edge of the road, hitting trees and rocks while sliding down a hillside. Toivonen and his navigator, Sergio Cresto, were killed. There were no witnesses to the crash, and the subsequent fire completely destroyed the car, leaving the remains unrecognizable as a vehicle. The heat from the fire was so intense that all that remained of the car was a blackened space frame. Group B and Group S were instantly cancelled for the 1987 season; Ford and Audi withdrew from Group B immediately. The other works teams decided to see the season out.

Rallying after Group B
Rallying after Group B looks a bit different. The replacement cars, the Group A and WRC classes, are getting close to the speeds of the Group B cars, but they aren't quite there yet. One only has to look at the fastest times up Pike's Peak for a comparison between the speed differences of the Group A & B cars. But the modern rally cars are very spectacular and exciting to watch. Modern rally drivers are among the best drivers in the world. Plus, rallying today has more factory teams already participating or planning entries in the WRC.

Was it right to ban the Group B cars? Personally, I think so. If FISA had done a better job of regulating the cars, then maybe the Group B cars could have stayed. But since FISA focused the majority of their attention on F1, they didn't realize how fast the Group B cars had become; it took an accident like Toivonen's to get FISA's attention. The Group B cars had reached the point where they belonged on a racetrack, not on a rally stage. The cars were so fast that a driver's eyes didn't have time to adjust their focus properly between corners. Group B lived a short, but very interesting, life.

[Matra et Alpine]

Sadly though it has COMPLETELY ignored that GRoupB also covered RACE events and we're trying to get more info on that. GroupB rallying is well understood .. and that article has only focussed on the "big names" and msised out on so many develompent cars - ie Fiat X1/9 and Citroen BX

Please, I'm really intrigued to find out what happened in the race doman as asked.