Anyone rember Group B?

[Leo_Ant]

You can refer to the BX TC 16 as a group B car, but no Fiat branded cars were ever considered: Fiatgroup was represented by Lancia. You're mixing ages...

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Leo_Ant

You can refer to the BX TC 16 as a group B car, but no Fiat branded cars were ever considered: Fiatgroup was represented by Lancia. You're mixing ages...

No. I've got the pics of the Fiat X1/9 prototypes in the FACTORY during their development
You are correct that it was stopped as the S4 was a better package.

[MrKipling]

Yeah the BX was going to be a Group B car - I believe Toyota were developing one too. That S4 is still one of the most remarkable sounding race cars ever - utterly unique.

I just found this on Wikipedia - seems pretty plausible

"In relation to motorsport governed by the FIA, Group A and Group B referred to two sets of regulations for competition vehicles in touring car and rally racing. Group B was introduced by the FIA in 1982 as replacement for both Group 4 (modified grand touring) and Group 5 (touring prototypes) cars.

Group A referred to production-derived vehicles limited in terms of power, weight, allowed technology and overall cost. Group A was aimed at ensuring a large number of privately-owned entries in races.

By contrast, Group B had few restrictions on technology, design and the number of cars required for homologation to compete. Weight was unrestricted, high-tech materials were permitted, and there was no limit on power. The category was aimed at car manufacturers by promising outright race victories and the subsequent publicity opportunities without the need for an existing production model.

Group B was initially a very successful concept, with many manufacturers joining the premier World Rally Championship, and increased spectator numbers. But the cost of..."

[csl177]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

Sadly though it has COMPLETELY ignored that GRoupB also covered RACE events and we're trying to get more info on that. GroupB rallying is well understood .. and that article has only focussed on the "big names" and msised out on so many develompent cars - ie Fiat X1/9 and Citroen BX

Please, I'm really intrigued to find out what happened in the race doman as asked.

You're correct... the replacement for the old order (Group 4,5,6) was the new Group A,B,C and unfortunately as always with history, the myth is what's printed, so we get rally info and little else. Aside from some race results and car files for Porsche 930, BMW M1, 288 GTO, etc., (the usual suspects) I've found little online so far that includes history for development from others marques. Frustrating indeed.

Anyone have a nice collection of Motor from the period that can fill in the blanks?

[Matra et Alpine]

yeah, all my material from the time is rally based and a bit of F1.
What we need is someone with an extensive collection of books that could reveiw and inform us. Come on Wouter, soemthing for Pieter to contribute ??

[MrKipling]

My guess is that it was banned when Group B rallying went - an 'across the board' rethink of the regulations. I assume it's Mary Rose esque disapearance would be down to a lack of popularity in its day (compared with the rally category) and the fact that the next generation of racers bared little or no relation to previous ones. To use rallying as the example, Delta S4s were replaced with Subaru Legacys!

EDIT: I've just thought of someone I can speak to - will make contact and get back.

[2ndclasscitizen]

So was Group A supposed to be like Group N today? Mass Production Road cars converted to rally use

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen

So was Group A supposed to be like Group N today? Mass Production Road cars converted to rally use

NO.
Group A was modified cars. ( used to be called Group 2 )
Group B was anythgin as long as you built 200 of them
Group N was and is standard cars. ( used to be called Group 1 )

Depending on the year and the phase of the moon Group A used to be anything from a minimum of 500 ( hence the Ford RS500 ) to 5,000

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Pages/part5.html descriptions and hassome nice pics of the cars of the Group A era. Shame we still can't find the same for Group B racing

[Markie Boy]

Originally Posted by magracer

I'm confussed.

Is there really anything such as a Group B LM racers? I thought Group B only applied to rally spec cars not to LM prototypes. Can anyone confirm? Or are we talking about cars in that period of time...

Nah yeh there were group b LM racers but none of them had a real shot at racing.

[Markie Boy]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

NO.
Group A was modified cars. ( used to be called Group 2 )
Group B was anythgin as long as you built 200 of them
Group N was and is standard cars. ( used to be called Group 1 )

Depending on the year and the phase of the moon Group A used to be anything from a minimum of 500 ( hence the Ford RS500 ) to 5,000

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Pages/part5.html descriptions and hassome nice pics of the cars of the Group A era. Shame we still can't find the same for Group B racing

Never hered of group A mate thanks for the info.

[Markie Boy]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

The 959 was NEVER a serious contender for GroupB rallys it was developed with the proposed GRoupB RACING regs but as rallying took over the formula entries then it was misplaced.
Porsche did run modified 911s to 959 spec in rallying to save face and did well. But nevere as serious winning formula and not worth the investment it woudl have taken to be competitive in GroupB world stage.
Likewise the Ferrari. It was OK for tarmac but all wrong for forest.

But to return to the main topic of GroupB touring car RACING, I'd like to see more pics and results if anyone has them

I never said it was a rally racer its a LM racer but it just never had a real shot at racing and same with every other Group B LM racer.

[pimento]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

NO.
Group A was modified cars. ( used to be called Group 2 )
Group B was anythgin as long as you built 200 of them
Group N was and is standard cars. ( used to be called Group 1 )

Depending on the year and the phase of the moon Group A used to be anything from a minimum of 500 ( hence the Ford RS500 ) to 5,000

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Pages/part5.html descriptions and hassome nice pics of the cars of the Group A era. Shame we still can't find the same for Group B racing

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html

That's all I got.

[Markie Boy]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

The 959 was NEVER a serious contender for GroupB rallys it was developed with the proposed GRoupB RACING regs but as rallying took over the formula entries then it was misplaced.
Porsche did run modified 911s to 959 spec in rallying to save face and did well. But nevere as serious winning formula and not worth the investment it woudl have taken to be competitive in GroupB world stage.
Likewise the Ferrari. It was OK for tarmac but all wrong for forest.

But to return to the main topic of GroupB touring car RACING, I'd like to see more pics and results if anyone has them

yeh i know all that but the main reason y i pointed it out is beceause its still quicker then almost every other racing car. 100kmh-2.6 secs, 400m-8.74secs
and it was capable of 400kmh but obviously porsche changed the gear ratios so it didnt make 400 while racing and it only had 4gears and had no computer assists. Cmon thats pretty fast ey?

[Markie Boy]

Theres a movie on Group B racing called To Fast To Race for the ppl who would want to check it out go download it or steal it if u have to.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Markie Boy

I never said it was a rally racer its a LM racer but it just never had a real shot at racing and same with every other Group B LM racer.

I know, THAT is why I pm'ed you suggesting the title change to "Group B racing".
Even now UCPers are posting GroupB rally info !!!