Anyone rember Group B?

[mickyredmire]

Originally Posted by MrKipling

WRC cars are faster across a stage than a Group B car... people often quote the power figure of a WRC car at 300bhp, ten forget to mentio they also produce 500-600 ft/lbs of torque.

Also, all the funky diffs and tyre technology would make a huge difference. Still it would be an interesting race.

To the best of my knowledge, a late Group B car has never raced a modern WRC car on a tight, twisty modern WRC stage or a fast, open Group B stage. A 1986 quattro S1 would not match a modern WRC car on a modern WRC stage. But how would a 300(ish)bhp WRC car get anywhere near a 600(ish) quattro on a forest fireroad? Whilst the quattro had big power, it was always a bit of lumbering beast, even in SWB form. The performance of Group B cars can be measured against modern rally cars by comparing results at National level in the UK, 6R4s running at reduced power can still beat modern cars. Mid-engine is worth a lot on tight stages.

[mickyredmire]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

It's all in the drivetrain technology, it's very funny to see 4 wheel drive Group B rallycars going around tight tarmac hairpins, they are pathetic.

Why would anyone want to watch Group B cars on tight, tarmac hairpins? Group B was about fast, open stages, that's why they needed power and stability. Having said that, have you watched the videos I linked to? The T16 was nimble, even with mid-1980s tyres.
Until recently, Pat Doran's RS200 was more than competitive in rallycross; mid-engine, big power and modern tyres can get a 20 year old design around a tight, semi-tarmac course at speed. Pat Doran's RS200 has now been banned from rallycross.

Go-karts are fast on tight, tarmac hairpins

[MrKipling]

Ah yeah, but 6R4s on the BRC aren't being driven by Rohrl, Airikalla, Toivenen et al, and the WRC cars aren't being driven be Loeb, McRae or Makkinen.

Tyre technology is a widely overlooked aspect of advances in motor sport - why do you think F1 car cornering speeds are so much quicker this year than they have been - despite the V8s and lower downforce?

And those RS200s in Rally Cross are not really Group B cars - more like sillhouette racers.

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

Go-karts are fast on tight, tarmac hairpins

Yeah, but go karts don't also go fast round sweeping gravel roads taking an utter battering.

Little factoid: you could pile 10 road-going Scoobs on top of the Impreza WRC before it collapsed. Stiff core.

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

Why would anyone want to watch Group B cars on tight, tarmac hairpins? Group B was about fast, open stages, that's why they needed power and stability. Having said that, have you watched the videos I linked to? The T16 was nimble, even with mid-1980s tyres.
Until recently, Pat Doran's RS200 was more than competitive in rallycross; mid-engine, big power and modern tyres can get a 20 year old design around a tight, semi-tarmac course at speed. Pat Doran's RS200 has now been banned from rallycross.

Go-karts are fast on tight, tarmac hairpins

There's rally called the Tour de Corse. And there's saying which goes like this: the longest staright in Corsica is the airport track in Ajaccio...

[mickyredmire]

Ah yeah, but 6R4s on the BRC aren't being driven by Rohrl, Airikalla, Toivenen et al, and the WRC cars aren't being driven be Loeb, McRae or Makkinen.

Absolutely, always a difficult comparison to make.

F1 car and tyre manufacturers have been able to produce cars that exceed the ability of a driver for years, but the high G forces produced would cause the drivers to pass out without G suits. In some ways, tyre design in F1 has gone backwards recently.

AFAIK, the Ford RS200s in rallycross are modified Ford RS200s. Technically, they are not Group B cars because Group B ceased to exist after 1986, but they are still close to the original vehicles produced by Ford, in fact they probably represent what the RS200 would have become if Group B was allowed to continue.

Yeah, but go karts don't also go fast round sweeping gravel roads taking an utter battering

Fast, sweeping gravel roads? So that's not a WRC stage then?

Little factoid: you could pile 10 road-going Scoobs on top of the Impreza WRC before it collapsed. Stiff core.

Overweight then?

[MrKipling]

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

in fact they probably represent what the RS200 would have become if Group B was allowed to continue.

Yep, that's almost certainly true. In fact I'm sure the manufacturer's would have ended up being even more extreme!

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

Fast, sweeping gravel roads? So that's not a WRC stage then?

No, sorry (my bad), my point was that the modern WRC cars excel at whatever they have to, and are still extremely quick in a straight line - the torque figures are silly and suspension has come on so far, they can carry much more speed over horrid terrain. Have you seen how low the Focus is this year?! How is that possible?!

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

Overweight then?

No, it'll be bang on the weight limit. WRC cars bear as much resemblance (structually) to their road-going counterparts as a DTM car does. Upwards from the chassis they're basically a rollcage with panels welded to it! Totally custom built from the ground up.

Originally Posted by mickyredmire

In some ways, tyre design in F1 has gone backwards recently.

No, tyre development has come on enormous amounts, cornering speeds have been getting higher and higher for years. They even went up last year... and that's not all down to aero. In fact, F1 cars have less downforce than last year and cornering speeds are still higher.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by MrKipling

Little factoid: you could pile 10 road-going Scoobs on top of the Impreza WRC before it collapsed. Stiff core.

That makes Solberg's crash in Germany a year or two ago even more impressive!

[kingofthering]

what would happen if the FIA revived group B today? with today's tech it should be pretty cool and it should be safer and faster.

[2ndclasscitizen]

They'd just be WRC cars with a front spoiler. All the FIA really has to do is take away the restrictors and let them use active diffs again

[McReis]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

That said in the 1986 Portuguese Rally the time recorded in Estoril by Henri Toivonen and his works Lancia Delta S4 would have given him 6th place on the grip of the F1 Grand Prix...

That's a myth of wich there is no proof. Estoril Circuit has no record of that lap time and recently, a book about Portugal Rally mentions that.
I really doubt it, since the drivers never attacked the Estoril circuit with much determination. It was a stage with the single purpose of dictating the starting order, and as the cars were not set up for that kind of driving, they never pushed the cars too much. Estoril also has a big straight and is a reasonably fast circuit. How could a rally car, short geared as they are, not lose lots of seconds in the fast parts when compaired to a F1 car?

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by McReis

That's a myth of wich there is no proof. Estoril Circuit has no record of that lap time and recently, a book about Portugal Rally mentions that.
I really doubt it, since the drivers never attacked the Estoril circuit with much determination. It was a stage with the single purpose of dictating the starting order, and as the cars were not set up for that kind of driving, they never pushed the cars too much. Estoril also has a big straight and is a reasonably fast circuit. How could a rally car, short geared as they are, not lose lots of seconds in the fast parts when compaired to a F1 car?

You're very probably right, in truth I only posted the info, which I read somewhere, but I have nothing to back it. Still in some ways Group B car were even more advanced than F1 cars...

[malscar]

In comparing GrpB and WRC times, the GrpB would be quicker on the more open stages ie up Pikes Peak. The WRC would be quicker on the stages used these days as they are a much slower stage with a average speed meant to be less than 120kph. The WRC handles a lot better and puts it's power down better. Tyres also have developed a huge amount since then.

The modern WRC is not geared for flat out speed but rather acceleration out of corners.

[Matra et Alpine]

Nice video of the Mazda RX-7 GroupB version on NZ Rally ......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfA7P3rfaA4&NR=1