2008 Formula One French Grand Prix

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

What was his option ? =

to let Vettel pass again and make a new attempt for a proper, pass, using the parts of the track intended for that. (you know that you cannot gain an advantage by cutting off chicanes, don't you). I also find it disappointing to see the word Ferrari in your reply. Apparently you are also falling victim of the "tabloid" attitude against FIA.

[carbrochuretom]

I thought Button did I quite well!

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by henk4

to let Vettel pass again and make a new attempt for a proper, pass, using the parts of the track intended for that.

From the inside shots I still contend tyhat he had already PASSED Vettel and it was Vettel's actions in not gicing him space that prevented him returning to the racing line to take the left hander safely. So hHamilton was faced to cut the second part. Have you reviewed the vid since my first comments. I do think it's clear Hamilton tried to use the racing line and was prevented from doing so by a car that woudl have been benhind his front wheels -- and hence considered to have been overtaken.

(you know that you cannot gain an advantage by cutting off chicanes, don't you)

Depends on what you consider "advantage" . Hamilton was already past Vettel. He did NOT gain any advantage in cutting the second corner, he prevented an incident. Again, my intepretation based on the internal shots. Reviewing it does match the decisino to do so and to stay in position.

I also find it disappointing to see the word Ferrari in your reply. Apparently you are also falling victim of the "tabloid" attitude against FIA.

Doubly disappointing that the clear mark (!) was ignored.
I have never bought in to the tabloid attitudes and am on well wotrn record here in UCP for defending the FIA dn their decisino making. AND as I'd said, this is only to be expected due to mcLaren problems last year.
They'll be more closely scrutinised than others for a while -- just like Ferrari were after the bendy-wings episode !

Do you believe Hamilton had taken Vettel on the entry part of the chicane ? Do you concur with my reading of it that Hamilton did attempt to move the car to the right mid chicane prior to taking the 'cut' ? So where then was the "gain" ??

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

From the inside shots I still contend tyhat he had already PASSED Vettel and it was Vettel's actions in not gicing him space that prevented him returning to the racing line to take the left hander safely. So hHamilton was faced to cut the second part. Have you reviewed the vid since my first comments. I do think it's clear Hamilton tried to use the racing line and was prevented from doing so by a car that woudl have been benhind his front wheels -- and hence considered to have been overtaken.

Depends on what you consider "advantage" . Hamilton was already past Vettel. He did NOT gain any advantage in cutting the second corner, he prevented an incident. Again, my intepretation based on the internal shots. Reviewing it does match the decisino to do so and to stay in position.

Doubly disappointing that the clear mark (!) was ignored.
I have never bought in to the tabloid attitudes and am on well wotrn record here in UCP for defending the FIA dn their decisino making. AND as I'd said, this is only to be expected due to mcLaren problems last year.
They'll be more closely scrutinised than others for a while -- just like Ferrari were after the bendy-wings episode !

Do you believe Hamilton had taken Vettel on the entry part of the chicane ? Do you concur with my reading of it that Hamilton did attempt to move the car to the right mid chicane prior to taking the 'cut' ? So where then was the "gain" ??

If Vettel did not let him on the racing line that would indicate that the pass was not completed. I don't know whether Kovalainen's effort to pass Trulli towards the end of the race was at the same spot. It looked like Kovalainen had completed the pass, but Trulli simply and rightly stayed where he was and Heiki could only abort his move.
I think in your approach it almost looks like somebody can arrive at a corner in front of somebody, but being totally off the racing line then the other should give him advantage while staying on the racing line all the time. Reminds me of the overtaking manoeuvres that Villeneuve Jr. tried to execute at the end of the Indy straight. Overshooting by miles and then expecting his opponents to say: Please go ahead sir....

And yes, I did not see the excl. mark. I had just been at the 10-10ths F1 forums, which are so full of British FIA/Ferrari haters....

[Matra et Alpine]

It's widely accepted that if you're overtakign then once your front wheels are up beside the driver then it's a given that the car being overtaken should give way and not try to hold the line -- unless you were Senna of course
By that measure then once you are actually PAST them then they shoudl give the line up.
Sadly with no third view then nobody can confirm or deny the drivers comments.
Hamilton thought he had made it and he is saying he actually lost control on the right steering input and then corrected it.

Originally Posted by Hamilton

My drive-through penalty was an extremely close call: I felt I'd got past Vettel fairly and was ahead going into the corner. But I was on the outside and couldn't turn in in case we both crashed, then I lost the back end and drove over the kerb.

Still hoold to what I'd said ... harsh call, but inevitable. They hve to be squeaky clean.

An interesting view commented on at Planet-F1 is that F1 has struggled to get more competitive over-taking happening and yet when a driver goes for it and then to avoid accident cuts a part of a corner then they're penalised. Kind of going to make every driver double-take on those inside dives for corners in case they are caught in the excess speed and in trouble leading to drive-through for takign the only safe exit available !! Hadn't thought about this... DOES make the deicison really suck imho

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

It's widely accepted that if you're overtakign then once your front wheels are up beside the driver then it's a given that the car being overtaken should give way and not try to hold the line -- unless you were Senna of course

but if there is a case that it is inevitable that the overtaking car will have to slow down much more that the car just "overtook", just to keep it on the track, then I think the "Vettel" car has every right to stay on the racing line. As Hamilton was saying, he was on the outside line....(like JV and KV in the examples I quoted earlier)..

[Wouter Melissen]

If Hamilton had that corner, he could have steered in without touching anyone. He clearly could not, so it was not his corner, but rather Vettel's. It is simple as that. I can't believe that Hamilton and/or McLaren did not err on the safe side by letting Vettel through. Hamilton would have gotten him properly at the next corner.

[fpv_gtho]

IMO, after they repeatedly let Vettel get away with cutting the final chicane at Montreal they shouldve let Hamilton off for this one. They need to get consistent with things like these. Since Monza '06 they havent really unfairly penalized someone, but when they let others off it gives the impression that anyone handed a penalty is hard done by.

[Ferrer]

In any case, because of the possibility of being penalised, wouldn't it have been clever for Hamilton to let Vettel pass again?

I mean he would've lost much less time that what he actually lost in the end.

[Matra et Alpine]

Being too simplistic guys IT was a SEQUENCE of corners.
If viewers don't want drivers to try to overtake on the outside or inside and then "own " the racing line then F1 is dead.
It's the precise LACK of those moves that has neutered overtaking in F1.
Can't have it both ways
ALL the great moves I remember in the mumble-mumble-mumble years of watching F1 have been to do with getting the overtaking car INTO a position where the oither person has to give ! AND the moments when the other person was silly was seen then as "worse than this case" Prost v Senna ?

On the point of shoudl Hamilton have let him pass. He and the pit team were all of the opinion it was a non-event. Without the benefit of 20-20 what shodul a driver do ? How much of a corner constitues a cut ? How much is a driver permitted to drive safely without penalty even though it maintains their position ?

If the expectaiton of every driver who bumped wheels, weaved 1 1/2 times in a corner, jumped a kerb was to always give up a place to the car behind then F1 shodul jsut pack in and we all watch Scalextric races !

[Ferrer]

There's and easy solution. Scrap F1, watch WTCC.

I still remember the last race in Brno a couple of weekends ago. More overtakings and body contact than in the last 5 years in F1. That's proper racing.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

If viewers don't want drivers to try to overtake on the outside or inside and then "own " the racing line then F1 is dead.

it is because current tracks seem to have only one (clean) racing line.....corners like the Tarzan at Zandvoort, where you had many options, don't seem to exist anymore, although the track is wide enough, but dirty for 75% of its width....

And again, Hamilton was not able to place his car in front of Vettel, so he did not complete the passing move. He needed "illegal" parts of the track to do that, and he should have known. It is probably not for nothing that Bernie deems him to be "not the best". He has been making too many mistakes recently, he astonishingly got away with it in Monaco, but there was no escape in Canada, and neither at Magny course.

[fpv_gtho]

Its not just the tracks having a single clean line, its the grooved tyres making it harder as well.

[Matra et Alpine]

"not able to place his car in front of Vettel" -- where's the evidence for that ?
I've given a Hamilton quotation where he said he lost control.
He HAD passed. Just then unabel to keep it there.
As I said, anyone who says with the avialable evidence that Hamilton desreves the penalty applied then they are condeming F1 to NOBODY takign a risky overtake ... and yet it's those precise maneouvres that have brought most people to watchign F1 20 years ago !!

We've no evidence either way to say for certain whether Hamilton was definately past or not and without it it's a loss to future F1 that the stewards applied the sanction.

[Jack_Bauer]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

"not able to place his car in front of Vettel" -- where's the evidence for that ?
I've given a Hamilton quotation where he said he lost control.
He HAD passed. Just then unabel to keep it there.
As I said, anyone who says with the avialable evidence that Hamilton desreves the penalty applied then they are condeming F1 to NOBODY takign a risky overtake ... and yet it's those precise maneouvres that have brought most people to watchign F1 20 years ago !!

We've no evidence either way to say for certain whether Hamilton was definately past or not and without it it's a loss to future F1 that the stewards applied the sanction.

According to reports, the Stewards had 'closed circuit TV' footage to base their decision on, which was part of the reason it took so long for them to reach their decision. I doubt whether that'll ever see the light of day though.

For what it's worth I think the penalty was very harsh. It looked to me as though he had the position, and if you look at hte on board footage he really doesn't gain any real advantage as you can see Coulthard's car immediately pull out a gap. He will have lost at least half a second bouncing over the kerbing and trying to correct the car.

It was interesting during the commentary on British TV that Brundle said the standard practice in those sorts of grey-area situations in his day was for the team to immediately give Charlie Whiting a call, and ask whether the driver should give the position back. I wonder if McLaren did that?