2008 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix

[Dino Scuderia]

If Bordais gets penalized for that then Webber should be penalized for moving over on Massa three times pressing him into the pit wall. Massa was two seconds faster per lap at least and trying to make a safe pass down the straight.

You just can't pass in F1 anymore, damned if you do damned if you don't.

Everyone wants close racing but all that's left practically are low percentage passes. Systemic of modern F1 cars and a lot of the recently designed and redesigned circuits. Crikey, one passing zone at Singapore IF you wanted to risk car and driver to try it.

[f6fhellcat13]

I would argue that because Bourdais and Webber controlled the line, and were in front, that both incedents were somewhat Massa's fault. Though the Webebr incedent less so.

[Dino Scuderia]

Kimi definitely squeezed down, he probably thought he was further by Bordais. IMO that was just an unfortunate incident.

[Jack_Bauer]

Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia

If Bordais gets penalized for that then Webber should be penalized for moving over on Massa three times pressing him into the pit wall. Massa was two seconds faster per lap at least and trying to make a safe pass down the straight.

I'm not so sure about the safe part. I think both drivers were being pretty damned dangerous in fact. Webber should not have moved across on Massa like that, but Massa also should not have ended up in the pit lane trying to get past. It was still race conditions and the pit lane was still open. Can you imagine what would have happened if someone had been exiting the pits at that moment? Doesn't even bear thinking about. They were both out of order IMO.

I'm still struggling to find an explanation for Bourdais' penalty. The poor guy made an interesting comment to British TV when they asked him what else he could have done to avoid the incident. He said something along the lines of, "I don't know. Maybe I was expected to stop and roll out the red carpet for him."

And where was Kovalainen's penalty for also running Raikkonen off the track at turn 1? (In fact, if you look at the footage it is actually Kov that locks up and runs wide totally independently of Hamilton and nudges Kimi off. He was arguably more guilty of any offence than Lewis.) And where was Kubica's penalty for running Raikkonen off the track in turn three later in the race? And where was Kimi's penalty for running Hamilton off the road at the Bus Stop at Spa for that matter? Et cetera...

The sport has been crying out for consistency in decision making for years, yet things just seem to be getting worse. Hamilton out braked himself but didn't hit anyone, yet receives a penalty. However, look back earlier in the season and you have incidents like Raikkonen driving straight into the back of Sutil at Monaco for example and receiving no penalty. If that wasn't "causing an avoidable accident" I don't know what is! The fans certainly don't know what kind of driving is considered acceptable and what isn't, and at the moment it doesn't look as though the drivers do either!

As you say, if the punishments handed out continue to be so erratic and seemingly arbitrary then you'll end up with a situation in which drivers are scared to make moves on each other. That's the last thing the sport needs.

[f6fhellcat13]

I think Lewis' lockup forced Heikki to go straight on(because he was sandwiched between Kubica and Kimi), thus making Kimi go strait on. I'd say what Lewis did to Kov was worse than what he did, through a few ºs of separation, to Kimi.

[Dino Scuderia]

Originally Posted by Jack_Bauer

I'm not so sure about the safe part. I think both drivers were being pretty damned dangerous in fact. Webber should not have moved across on Massa like that, but Massa also should not have ended up in the pit lane trying to get past. It was still race conditions and the pit lane was still open. Can you imagine what would have happened if someone had been exiting the pits at that moment? Doesn't even bear thinking about. They were both out of order IMO.

I'm still struggling to find an explanation for Bourdais' penalty. The poor guy made an interesting comment to British TV when they asked him what else he could have done to avoid the incident. He said something along the lines of, "I don't know. Maybe I was expected to stop and roll out the red carpet for him."

And where was Kovalainen's penalty for also running Raikkonen off the track at turn 1? (In fact, if you look at the footage it is actually Kov that locks up and runs wide totally independently of Hamilton and nudges Kimi off. He was arguably more guilty of any offence than Lewis.) And where was Kubica's penalty for running Raikkonen off the track in turn three later in the race? And where was Kimi's penalty for running Hamilton off the road at the Bus Stop at Spa for that matter? Et cetera...

The sport has been crying out for consistency in decision making for years, yet things just seem to be getting worse. Hamilton out braked himself but didn't hit anyone, yet receives a penalty. However, look back earlier in the season and you have incidents like Raikkonen driving straight into the back of Sutil at Monaco for example and receiving no penalty. If that wasn't "causing an avoidable accident" I don't know what is! The fans certainly don't know what kind of driving is considered acceptable and what isn't, and at the moment it doesn't look as though the drivers do either!

As you say, if the punishments handed out continue to be so erratic and seemingly arbitrary then you'll end up with a situation in which drivers are scared to make moves on each other. That's the last thing the sport needs.

It was a safe pass before Webber's second and third move, that's when Massa had no choice but to take pit exit. Yes it could have been bad...even with the warning light there'd be no time for a driver to react to a 200mph car changing directions in a split second.

[motorsportnerd]

I assume that any driver who makes a mistake into the first corner, locks up his brakes and forces other drivers to take avoiding action will be penalised in the future? While Lewis' mistake clearly caused several drivers - including his chief championship rival - to take avoiding action, I don't remember similar mistakes or attempted aggressive moves in the past ever being punished by a drivethrough. I assume its another case of Lewis having made too many driving transgressions during the year and thus his mistakes/aggression draws more attention from the stewards.
However, Lewis chopping across onto Kovi was a little more worrisome but it is straight out of the MS book. Despite a lot of debate when MS did it to rivals at the start, he was never penalised and the general consensus (at least from the FIA if not the fans) seemed to be that it was hard, but fair and the rival drivers should learn to deal with it.

This race once again brings into question the consistency of driving infractions handed out by the FIA. As mentioned in previous posts, many other incidents during the race went unpunished. Time for a complete rethink for next season I feel.

I must comment on both Massa and Hamilton's driving in this race. Neither seemed to be driving with their head and its almost as if neither of them really wants to win the championship. Hamilton in particular didn't need to be so aggressive into the first corner. Massa should have conceded the chicane to Hamilton and not punted him off. Then Massa continued to drive very hard - though in his case at least he has the excuse of a points deficit to make up. Hamilton needs to take stock and be a little more cautious. Adopt the sort of approach that Alain Prost used to take and do only what is necessary to win the title. Massa needs to tone it down a little or he will end up with a few more drivethroughs.
If neither driver can avoid the sort of mistakes they made at Fuji, then we could well see Kubica snatch the title from both of them. At this stage of the season, I'd rate Kubica alongside Alonso as the drivers of the year. He's been fast, smooth, consistent, largely mistake and accident free. Struggled a little in the wet, but other than that Kubica has been great all year. Alonso, as noted before, has punched well above the capabilities of the Renault all season. So, it wouldn't entirely surprise me to see Kubica snatch the title and Alonso pick up another win in the last few races.

[jump15vc]

Originally Posted by jump15vc

hes a rookie that needs to learn his place his finish means nothing points-wise massa can't be bothered passing him lol

looks like the stewards agree with me lol

[f6fhellcat13]

Unfortunately.

[Jack_Bauer]

Reportedly Fernando Alonso has openly stated that given the chance he will gladly help Felipe Massa to win the title ahead of Lewis Hamilton...

Originally Posted by Autosport.com

Renault driver Fernando Alonso says he will do all he can to help Ferrari's Felipe Massa win this year's championship.

"Yes, no doubt, if I can help, I will help Massa," Alonso was quoted as saying by AS newspaper following his victory in the Japanese Grand Prix.

"They have lost a lot of points," added Alonso about Massa and title rival Lewis Hamilton. "After 16 races the leader has 84 points. In 2006 I had 82 in nine races.

"In this championship the drivers who are up there have scored few points. But in the end the one who makes the least errors will win. We'll see," concluded the Spaniard, who had a torrid season as Hamilton's teammate at McLaren in 2007.

Massa is five points behind Hamilton with just two races to go.

Now, it should be noted that AS isn't exactly highly regarded for its journalistic integrity. It is something of a tabloid sports paper in Spain that revelled in fuelling the fire of the rivalry between Alonso and Hamilton last season in order to flog more papers. Perhaps the comments should be taken with a pinch of salt.

However, if the comments are accurately reported then Alonso REALLY needs to watch his mouth.

[LeonOfTheDead]

it's not the first time he is declaring love to Ferrari and hate to Hamilton. I watched an interview of him after the SPA GP where he was sustaining that Hamilton cut the chicane because "gli mancano le palle", which means, "he has no balls"

[teatako]

Originally Posted by motorsportnerd

. At this stage of the season, I'd rate Kubica alongside Alonso as the drivers of the year. He's been fast, smooth, consistent, largely mistake and accident free. Struggled a little in the wet, but other than that Kubica has been great all year. Alonso, as noted before, has punched well above the capabilities of the Renault all season. So, it wouldn't entirely surprise me to see Kubica snatch the title and Alonso pick up another win in the last few races.

This.


I must say making unfortunate, laughable statements seems pretty much de rigueur in F1. I wonder if there´s a reason for it?

[f6fhellcat13]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

it's not the first time he is declaring love to Ferrari and hate to Hamilton. I watched an interview of him after the SPA GP where he was sustaining that Hamilton cut the chicane because "gli mancano le palle", which means, "he has no balls"

I beleive Hamilton also said something along the lines of "Kimi didn't have the balls to win this race" at spa.
EDIT: v Look at post below v

[fpv_gtho]

He accused Kimi of braking early into the chicane and suggested he didnt have the balls to brake late.

[motorsportnerd]

Originally Posted by teatako

This.


I must say making unfortunate, laughable statements seems pretty much de rigueur in F1. I wonder if there´s a reason for it?

I'm not sure what you mean??
In my opinion, Robert Kubica and Fernando Alonso have been the two best all round drivers of the past season, given the equipment at their disposal.
I'm not sure what's laughable about holding such an opinion?