GM to File for Bankruptcy in Next 5 Days

[henk4]

Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13

I believe he's playing typical-Ferrer devil's advocate.

Can't we just not call it socialism to appease the masses?
Stupid pundits who use "socialist" as a synonym for "asshole" have marred that word in America's eyes, but I say a bit of regulation would be nice. (I personally do not fear the "s" word).

the "s" word? You mean Sweden??? May G.. (or Bill O'Reilly, whoever you think is more powerful) prevent that.

[f6fhellcat13]

Originally Posted by henk4

the "s" word? You mean Sweden??? May G.. (or Bill O'Reilly, whoever you think is more powerful) prevent that.

Yes, Swedish SSR (note all the "s"s) is to be feared greatly. I go to a pretty liberal (by American standards) school and socialize with mostly liberal people so I believe we might have to put this all in the hands of godless and heathenous science. Science is making a recovery after an eight-year hiatus though, which is nice. One of my favorite of Obama's measures was one that attempted to distance research and politics.

Back on topic: I think this was the right thing to do with GM even if I am not particularly happy about it. I am also angered that I have to wait until July to be a voting stockholder in GM. However, I do think this is for the best, and as much as it would be funny to see a large corporation topple (live by capitalism, die by capitalism etc...) as a gearhead, I am biased in the General's favor and all. But, even if it wasn't a car firm, it is too integral to the economy to simply die.

[henk4]

now I am reading that they will close 14 factories. So what are these producing now (not only Pontiacs me thinks), and what is their total capacity?
33 factories are planned to stay open. Where and when will the production of the Cruze start up?

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by fpv_gtho

Say goodbye to the economy then. GM's too large to let fall on its arse, theres too many consequences that could lead to the next depression.

Plenty of people have said its the death of GM, GM are gone, bla bla GM. Clearly, GM are still around. They still will be around. I dont know if they'll still call themselves GM however.

Originally Posted by henk4

sure, but do you think that society needs proof of how capitalism works? In other words, do we, as socially oriented people, accept the full impact of raw capitalism?

As I said, I can see why they did it. Letting such a big corporation die would be lethal for the current US government, and I don't think Obama wants to end before he has even started. And of course there are the social problems that such a situation would bring in the short term.

But look at the UK, British Leyland didn't die immediately but in the ended up disappearing. And the United Kingdom is still going. My point is, I wouldn't be surprised if this ended in a controlled GM death, and given the state of it I'm not sure it would be a bad thing necessarily.

(The fact that make cars is irrelevant here)

[henk4]

on the greater scale of things, I think GM is more of a heavyweight to the economy than British Leyland ever was, also timewise. Putting all the GM production capacity immediately out of operation (real bankruptcy) would entail much more than the workers of GM only. The Government seems to be setting up a "newGM" company, with the viable parts, and also an "oldGM Company" with the parts that will be left to die. Now the big question mark for me is what goes where.

[LTSmash]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

Mass Private Equity then leads to private sales of those equities which then leasd to short-selling those equities and gues what back to where you are TODAY !

As long as the bidder (PE firm) doesn't convert GM assets into an IPO, I wouldn't be too worried about shorting.

Then again, a PE deal would never work with a government regulated Goldman Sachs. Conspiracy I say .

I'll get off this pipe dream for the sake of all the thread viewers .

[Dino Scuderia]

GM has sold Hummer but they aren't saying who the buyer is....but they are saying they will still be made in the same USA plant...so 3,000 or so jobs saved there.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia

GM has sold Hummer but they aren't saying who the buyer is....but they are saying they will still be made in the same USA plant...so 3,000 or so jobs saved there.

but can that be considered to be productive jobs?

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by henk4

the "s" word? You mean Sweden??? May G.. (or Bill O'Reilly, whoever you think is more powerful) prevent that.

Brilliant.

Originally Posted by henk4

now I am reading that they will close 14 factories. So what are these producing now (not only Pontiacs me thinks), and what is their total capacity?
33 factories are planned to stay open. Where and when will the production of the Cruze start up?

How is the supposed to be Cruze anyways?

Originally Posted by Ferrer

As I said, I can see why they did it. Letting such a big corporation die would be lethal for the current US government, and I don't think Obama wants to end before he has even started. And of course there are the social problems that such a situation would bring in the short term.

But look at the UK, British Leyland didn't die immediately but in the ended up disappearing. And the United Kingdom is still going. My point is, I wouldn't be surprised if this ended in a controlled GM death, and given the state of it I'm not sure it would be a bad thing necessarily.

(The fact that make cars is irrelevant here)

Look below:

Originally Posted by henk4

on the greater scale of things, I think GM is more of a heavyweight to the economy than British Leyland ever was, also timewise. Putting all the GM production capacity immediately out of operation (real bankruptcy) would entail much more than the workers of GM only.

Spot on. Ferrer, you may have dreams of true live and let die capitalism but do you really think that that would be in the best interest of the US and even the world at this point? The unemployment rate would skyrocket if GM was liquidated and/or died a true death and that'd be an epic disaster.

[LeonOfTheDead]

So...GM is bankrupt in my mind since so much, I almost don't care about reading all the updates.
What should be done with GM?
Stated a million times. From a car maker point of view, keep Chevy for small and cheap cars, Cadillac for luxury ones, GMC for trucks and SUVs (and keep them in the States), Corvette for sports cars. Done.
For a business point of view...I don't know. Simplistically, trash everything which isn't creating profits, close whatever isn't necessary.
From a social point of view, probably GM should be kept alive as it is now in order to save jobs and so on, but it would be a suicide 10 years later.
People need to believe in something in this period, and shutting down "the American company" wouldn't be a good message. Trying to save it even if it shouldn't be done is like saying recover is possible, the American dream wasn't so weak after all and such.

I would say the Government should keep the control of GM until they fired all the smart managers who lead to this situation, and the same should be done with UAW. Then sell the company to private investors, other companies, whatever, but don't keep GM for ever.

Whatever may happen now, even 50% of employers loosing their jobs, would surely be better than the situation we would have if the company wouldn't be bankrupt.
Sorry for them, but there isn't another option.
Probably the main error was believing in such a system inf irst place, but it's not their fault, it's something more about social behavior.
This week GM, Visteon and Metaldyne filled C11. Obviously it isn't something only related to GM or the auto industry, we already understood that.

I think, and I'm by no means an expert in this field, that the government (regardless of who is the government) is the only player who can recover such a situation, eventually creating a sort of plain field in the end. Perhaps it could work pretty badly, but I don't see a nation going bankrupt. I mean, they already are, and life is continuing.

GM could receive 100 B $ form the government, and yes, those money are likely from the taxpayers.
Except that those money would have been spent in another way and more likely it wouldn't have been a way that all taxpayers would have appreciated or even perceived in a better life.
Also those 100 B $ aren't a real amount of money as if I ask 50 € to my mother.
They have a different value, a different meaning and therefore a different impact, both on who gives them and on who receives them, and it's something only a (powerful) government could do.

Then I'd say, as Ferrer said, let them disappear, but it isn't realistic.
Despite selling a huge amount of cars every year, they failed to make profits out of them, it's not my fault.
If it was UAW's fault, then shot down the UAW.
But in the end, those cars were averagely average. If they weren't good as cars or as profit makers, than what's the point of a company? Hiring people even if you don't need them?

[Dino Scuderia]

Look at the emergance of PSA ( Renault Peugeot Citroen ) as a major manufacturer from mass producing cheap and nasty cars in the 60s.

But much of their income was from a financial lending arm and other non-car aspects of the company, not from car sales profits.

Also they move manufacturing to lower cost countries to compete like most other car makers do...and they still struggle to survive and needed gov't money to to keep going in the financial crunch.( sounds like GM doesn't it)

So it isn't like because they've had gov't assistance that it is a great shining model for all others to follow, they are in exactly the same sinking boat in a sea of sharks, eh.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia

But much of their income was from a financial lending arm and other non-car aspects of the company, not from car sales profits.

Also they move manufacturing to lower cost countries to compete like most other car makers do...and they still struggle to survive and needed gov't money to to keep going in the financial crunch.( sounds like GM doesn't it)

So it isn't like because they've had gov't assistance that it is a great shining model for all others to follow, they are in exactly the same sinking boat in a sea of sharks, eh.

not really, they received a much smaller amount of money, even proportionally to their smaller size than GM's.

[Dino Scuderia]

Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead

not really, they received a much smaller amount of money, even proportionally to their smaller size than GM's.

The only difference is they don't have the big health care bill hanging over their head....other than that practically all the same.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia

The only difference is they don't have the big health care bill hanging over their head....other than that practically all the same.

I don't agree, btw, if it was all about the UAW, then why not to kill the UAW? Considering the Government is handling the situation, it should be a solution to be considered, no?

[cmcpokey]

apparently GM announced that there is a buyer secured for Hummer. they won't release the name at this juncture, but the deal is expected to close by september.