The new Vauxhall VXR8

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

thats what i have an issue with. comparing itself to the likes of an m3, c63, rs6, xfr, e63, but there are a few here that cry foul when i raise a few points over where the vxr8 is lacking and can hardly be compared to the above mentioned cars.

but.. it can?
if you're looking for a V8 saloon that makes a lot of noise and reels in the horizon when you stomp on the loud pedal there is literally nothing between these cars, especially to a casual observer.
from a driver's perspective it CAN be compared to those cars, in fact it puts the price tags of those cars into question if you looking at stats (and even fuel economy..)
as a performance brand alternative everything in the original article is spot on; your argument is as a premium brand alternative which it is simply not going for...
this is why people don't get your post; you brought up an issue not mentioned rather than taking up argument with an existing one..
like comparing a mustang to maserati gran turismo, only then basing the comparison on the leather quality of the handbrake boot, rather than comparing them as 2+2 V8, F/R coupes..

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

mentioning things like "_fifty_thousand_dollars_ spent on a SS would result in the BMW in a seriously further back second place" is just stupid. what race are we talking about here? in the coles / woolies car park? or is it the traffic light drag race heroes? i live in the real world mate, with speed cameras, overzealous cops and the like, kids unpredictably crossing roads etc, so unless you live on a race track, i would say your point is completely irrelevant. sure, i can go and get a v8, like every other bogan, spend a bomb on it, and get it cranking out 1000+hp, but in the end, i am only allowed to go as fast as a volvo driver with his beige bowls club hat on the rear parcel shelf.

in the real world i live within easy driving distance of five race tracks, off the top of my head.. if i was worried about that then i'd definately get the SS, and drop the money on suspension mods and other track prep mods.
or hell, again, buy a caterham and use the ss to trailer it there haha, none of those are really track day warriors unless you go to the wed tnt at willow bank.

[ozzycarnut]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

but.. it can?
if you're looking for a V8 saloon that makes a lot of noise and reels in the horizon when you stomp on the loud pedal there is literally nothing between these cars, especially to a casual observer.
from a driver's perspective it CAN be compared to those cars, in fact it puts the price tags of those cars into question if you looking at stats (and even fuel economy..)
as a performance brand alternative everything in the original article is spot on; your argument is as a premium brand alternative which it is simply not going for...
this is why people don't get your post; you brought up an issue not mentioned rather than taking up argument with an existing one..
like comparing a mustang to maserati gran turismo, only then basing the comparison on the leather quality of the handbrake boot, rather than comparing them as 2+2 V8, F/R coupes..

in the real world i live within easy driving distance of five race tracks, off the top of my head.. if i was worried about that then i'd definately get the SS, and drop the money on suspension mods and other track prep mods.
or hell, again, buy a caterham and use the ss to trailer it there haha, none of those are really track day warriors unless you go to the wed tnt at willow bank.

for those too lazy to look it up, i will provide some facts ....

Vauxhall VXR8
AUD$75,455.38
General specifications
Country of origin Great Britain
Numbers built N/A
Introduced 2011

Performance figures
Power 431 bhp / 322 KW
Torque 550 Nm / 406 ft lbs
BHP/Liter 70 bhp / liter
Top Speed 250 km/h / 155 mph
0-60 mph 4.9 s

Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
AUD$144,365 (when new)
General specifications
Country of origin Germany
Numbers built N/A
Introduced 2007

Performance figures
Power 457 bhp / 341 KW @ 6800 rpm
Torque 600 Nm / 443 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm
BHP/Liter 74 bhp / liter
Power to weight 0.26 bhp / kg
Top Speed 250 km/h / 155 mph
0-60 mph 4.4 s

thats just the c63, and a 2007 may i add. a car that you could probably pick up now for similar money to a new hsv gts (which according to redbook, you can). as i have said all along, the value factor i am not arguing, a new german car is probably overpriced. but put the vauxhaull and the c63 side by side, and the vxr8 is a pile of dogs balls in a tupperware skirt compared to the c63. and this isnt perceived quality, this is actual quality, a car that will last 20 years no problems. and the c63 spanks the vxr8 as far as performance goes. no ifs, no buts.

its quite clear to me that there seem to be quite a few holden / ford fan boys around the place that simply wont recognise anything other than what has a holden or ford badge slapped on it. this is pretty sad, as i shudder to think what you guys would think of a 911 turbo, 'an overpriced, overrated german pos'?

i think also that it goes both ways with old mates original post. he wants to compare the vxr8, no worries, but do it with similarly priced cars for a start. then i wouldnt have the need to explain why a low kays well looked after 2007 c63 is a far better purchase than a vxr8.

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

for those too lazy to look it up, i will provide some facts ....

Vauxhall VXR8
AUD$75,455.38
General specifications
Country of origin Great Britain
Numbers built N/A
Introduced 2011

Performance figures
Power 431 bhp / 322 KW
Torque 550 Nm / 406 ft lbs
BHP/Liter 70 bhp / liter
Top Speed 250 km/h / 155 mph
0-60 mph 4.9 s

Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
AUD$144,365 (when new)
General specifications
Country of origin Germany
Numbers built N/A
Introduced 2007

Performance figures
Power 457 bhp / 341 KW @ 6800 rpm
Torque 600 Nm / 443 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm
BHP/Liter 74 bhp / liter
Power to weight 0.26 bhp / kg
Top Speed 250 km/h / 155 mph
0-60 mph 4.4 s

same top speed, near identical power, torque, acceleration figures, in a four door saloons that can carry the family and still scratch your driver's wants, at half the price..
this is what they're getting at. if you're not badge biased (hard, i know ), don't care about extraneous gizmo's and electronics but are looking at a performance saloon then the VXR8 simply does undercut the competition and as per the stats above CAN be compared to them in that respect.
your one-eyed view - and i mean that candidly, not as an insult - appears to take issue with the percieved quality (i've had family experience with a VE GTS for three years now.. XR6T before that, and some average merc that was impossible to sell before that..) and brand image, which it does not claim to match..
the comparison is like the honda NSX to the ferrari 355, or the 350Z to the Z4, or evo FQ400 to lamborghini murcielago if you want to take it to extremes.

this is not a difficult concept..


ironically the 911 turbo is actually in a very similar position as the VXR8, except it's in relation to ferrari.

[ozzycarnut]

so lets agree to disagree, rather than throwing juvenile assumptions round, like i am 'one eyed' and 'badge biased'. get over yourself mate. you know very little, if nothing, of me, so you are not in a position to comment on how i view the automotive industry.

as far as german v aussie stuff, it will probably be a debate that will go on until mankind has long since left this earth. there are good arguments on both sides. for my money though, if i were looking for a family sedan with a bit of grunt that the mrs would not be embarrassed to be seen in, i would be looking at german or japanese stuff. whether this be a merc c class, bmw 3 series, subaru liberty, honda accord, or even a vw jetta, these 'base model' cars are way ahead in terms of refinement and resale to that of what holden offer. think of the garbage they are selling like barina, cruze, captiva, and then consider how great holden are. yeah, anyway, moving right along.

lastly, the holden fan boys are doing guys like me a favour by not buying japanese and german stuff. so when it comes time for me to purchase my next car, whether that be german or japanese, it will hold its value. i think my trusty 2005 corolla is worth more than a 2 year old commodore. so thanks guys, keep buying them!

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

so lets agree to disagree, rather than throwing juvenile assumptions round, like i am 'one eyed' and 'badge biased'. get over yourself mate. you know very little, if nothing, of me, so you are not in a position to comment on how i view the automotive industry.

reading your posts is enough. enough to confirm my assumptions, anyway. not that it's meant as an insult - everyone has badge bias and personal perception.. even if it is woefully tangential in some cases and not really accruate or 'fair' to the car.

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

as far as german v aussie stuff, it will probably be a debate that will go on until mankind has long since left this earth. there are good arguments on both sides. for my money though, if i were looking for a family sedan with a bit of grunt that the mrs would not be embarrassed to be seen in, i would be looking at german or japanese stuff. whether this be a merc c class, bmw 3 series, subaru liberty, honda accord, or even a vw jetta, these 'base model' cars are way ahead in terms of refinement and resale to that of what holden offer. think of the garbage they are selling like barina, cruze, captiva, and then consider how great holden are. yeah, anyway, moving right along.

lastly, the holden fan boys are doing guys like me a favour by not buying japanese and german stuff. so when it comes time for me to purchase my next car, whether that be german or japanese, it will hold its value. i think my trusty 2005 corolla is worth more than a 2 year old commodore. so thanks guys, keep buying them!

edit: speaking of juvenile

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

mentioning things like "_fifty_thousand_dollars_ spent on a SS would result in the BMW in a seriously further back second place" is just stupid. what race are we talking about here? in the coles / woolies car park? or is it the traffic light drag race heroes? i live in the real world mate, with speed cameras, overzealous cops and the like, kids unpredictably crossing roads etc, so unless you live on a race track, i would say your point is completely irrelevant. sure, i can go and get a v8, like every other bogan, spend a bomb on it, and get it cranking out 1000+hp, but in the end, i am only allowed to go as fast as a volvo driver with his beige bowls club hat on the rear parcel shelf.

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

i would take a 2 or 3 year old low kays well looked after mercedes s class over a brand new commodore or ss any day of the week. the original owner has already bled his arse out on it, sure it will depreciate further, but i would say not at the rate of a new commodore/ss. sure, buy an ss, go spend the savings you could have over buying an m3 by doing the douche bag thing with the neons and flame stickers and blow off valve cd playing nice and loud, and whatever else you want to do to it, at the end of the day, its still a turd in a frock, or perhaps a turbocharged turd in a frock with neons and 25 inch spinners. then try and sell it when you are tired of it, see how invalid my views are then.

see what i mean?
before the E92 520i my family had a VE GTS (series I, back when they looked good); materials inside weren't all that different and the performance was night and day in favour of the VE. Also i hated fiddling with the keyless entry crap!
the euro saloons would be a waste of time for me, the base models are utter generic overpriced camry's; with the performance models you can't really tow anything (hell mainly because a tow bar would look wrong, even if you could fit one) and still too rubbish on a track. i'd get more use out of a hot hatch, but i might, just might be tempted to a home grown V8 saloon at the same price, especially if someone has already done the light mods i want - it doesn't make sense to pay more for quantitavely less.

[ozzycarnut]

Originally Posted by clutch-monkey

reading your posts is enough. enough to confirm my assumptions, anyway. not that it's meant as an insult - everyone has badge bias and personal perception.. even if it is woefully tangential in some cases and not really accruate or 'fair' to the car.



edit: speaking of juvenile


see what i mean?
before the E92 520i my family had a VE GTS (series I, back when they looked good); materials inside weren't all that different and the performance was night and day in favour of the VE. Also i hated fiddling with the keyless entry crap!
the euro saloons would be a waste of time for me, can't really tow anything (hell a tow bar would look wrong) and rubbish on a track. i'd get more use out of a hot hatch, but i might, just might be tempted to a saloon at the same price, especially if someone has already done the light mods i want.

theres not really much to say here, as what you have stated is nothing but bias, hot air and immaturity. the only thing i would add would be re: turd in a frock and volvo with a beige bowls club hat etc, its called 'humour', you should try it some time

[clutch-monkey]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

theres not really much to say here, as what you have stated is nothing but bias, hot air and immaturity. the only thing i would add would be re: turd in a frock and volvo with a beige bowls club hat etc, its called 'humour', you should try it some time

that's rich... me biased towards holdens lol

[Badsight]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

theres not really much to say here, as what you have stated is nothing but bias, hot air and immaturity. the only thing i would add would be re: turd in a frock and volvo with a beige bowls club hat etc, its called 'humour', you should try it some time

yeah theres no need for that. while i am a v8 engine fan (best layout for power to weight to simplicity) theres no way im ever going to own one of the Holden HSV's or Ford FPV's

im not a v8 supers fan , cant stand the 4 doors being called "supercars" - its the DTM & Italian touring cars that i can sit thru & watch . . the badge bias in this thread is being directed against the Holden by you as if its not even worthy when the germans are being mentioned as well

what your being replied too (by multiple people) is that for the money they are a viable alternative

ive since found out you cant (engine bay is simply too tight) , but for me the v8 id love to own would be a VH45 stuffed into the 370 GT skyline coupe . they look fantastic compared to the older 350GT & the VH45 is a solid road driven basis for 100 hp/Liter

i havent read much about Mercedes Five liter , but Ascari have got the BMW oil pump VVT 5.0 developing 650 horse , which if it can handel being thrashed is simply amazing (& would validate the extra weight of its VVT system & variable length intakes as being worthwhile)

[clutch-monkey]

badsight there is actually some cool footage of VXR8's in some italian based GT race series iirc - looks real interesting compared to V8 supertaxi's; the italian version seems to be open to all saloons, VXR8, quatroporte, M3, merceded etc etc

[S.O.S]

If you said motorsportnerd and i were holden biased we would say 60/40 me - 40/60 him lol.

The only holden the monkey had was buried in a tomb. where it belongs.


You know what i dont fully like about hsv's new interior. this boy racer playstation thing they have going now. make a nice 400kw powered car, ad w427 set-up. price it 15k above a clubsport. ad that boy racer gear. and hit the track where it might get some use.

that RS SS is worth more than some hsv to me. and i found one priced at 60k.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...d=128EC3598800

i'd go that before a hsv.

[whiteballz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-LO3teQckE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-LO3teQckE&feature=related

[motorsportnerd]

Originally Posted by S.O.S

If you said motorsportnerd and i were holden biased we would say 60/40 me - 40/60 him lol.

Well, I think we're the only two replying to this thread who actually own a Holden or Ford. There are a few others who like Fords or Holdens.
But I don't think any of the posters here are completely one eyed when it comes to Fords or Holdens.
Looking back at everyone's past posts, its clear we are car enthusiasts first and foremost and may have certain badge preferences after that.
In fact, the BMW M3 E30 remains one of my two favourite cars of all time. The other wears a Ford badge - but its is English, not Australian. So, I am certainly not anti-German.

One thing I will say about this thread - it seems to have fired us all up in a way that hasn't happened for a few years.

[motorsportnerd]

Originally Posted by ozzycarnut

its quite clear to me that there seem to be quite a few holden / ford fan boys around the place that simply wont recognise anything other than what has a holden or ford badge slapped on it. this is pretty sad, as i shudder to think what you guys would think of a 911 turbo, 'an overpriced, overrated german pos'?

Very few of us are one-eyed Ford or Holden fans, as I mentioned in my previous post. In fact, I believe Clutch-Monkey has a certain fondness for the Porsche marque
I don't think a Porsche 911 Turbo is overpriced compared to a Ferrari 458 Italia. However, it could be argued that is overpriced when compared to a Nissan GT-R - but let's not go there. The 911 Turbo is an all-time great, no matter which model we're discussing.

You have said that the Vauxhall VXR shouldn't be compared with the BMW M3, Audi RS6, Jaguar XF-R, et al. And I agree that oranges should be compared with oranges.

So, exactly what should the equivilent HSV GTS be compared with? In Australia, certainly, it can be compared with the FPV Falcon GT and the FPV Falcon F6. What else around $70K can it be compared with? A Liberty GT or VW Passat R36 cannot match a HSV GTS - they are competition for the cheaper and slower Commodore SS-V. The VW Golf R is a hot hatch. The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X and Subaru Impreza WRX STi are more specialised rally homolation specials.
Any used Euro sports sedan brings the used vs new argument into play. And since a HSV GTS E-series can be bought used for a substantial saving, we'd be back at square one in the debate.

In England, the Vauxhall VXR8 would have even less competition for the price. A Cadillac CTS-V is probably its natural competitor, but that too is more expensive. Also, can anyone advise how heavily the previous generation of Vauxhall VXR8s have depreciated? They may hold value relative to BMW, Mercedes, etc, better than HSV does in Australia.

The opening post looks like its lifted from a Vauxhall press release. Naturally Vauxhall will compare the VXR8 with other competitors. Since the VXR8 doesn't actually have any competitors in the UK, perhaps they should simply have said it is in a class all by itself.

[S.O.S]

Originally Posted by motorsportnerd

Well, I think we're the only two replying to this thread who actually own a Holden or Ford. There are a few others who like Fords or Holdens.
But I don't think any of the posters here are completely one eyed when it comes to Fords or Holdens.
Looking back at everyone's past posts, its clear we are car enthusiasts first and foremost and may have certain badge preferences after that.
In fact, the BMW M3 E30 remains one of my two favourite cars of all time. The other wears a Ford badge - but its is English, not Australian. So, I am certainly not anti-German.

One thing I will say about this thread - it seems to have fired us all up in a way that hasn't happened for a few years.

True. both you and i have spent money and profanities towards them cars over the years. and at shows we both take a turn towards the holden/ford section. and could have sworn we walked in with more people behind us.

The e30 powered to victory at the last classic. driven by glen setton.. i have a book which shows me the timeline of the m3. and ive decided which is my favourite m3. e46.

True true. we haven't talked cars like this for so long. we been lying dormant .

[IBrake4Rainbows]

And I guess my post gets ignored. Thats cool, must mean it was inch perfect.

It's depressing when the argument can be so comprehensively wiped out with such ease that Clutch can do it...