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Old 02-11-2011, 04:10 PM
Big time Big time is offline
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Why they didn't make a V-12 based on an existing V-8 for the Dodge Viper?

This way they could have used pistons, rings, valves (with all their seals, springs, etc), bearings, connecting rods, pushrods, etc.

They would just have needed to make new engine blocks, heads, crankshafts and camshafts.
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Old 02-11-2011, 04:21 PM
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Because all the parts you've listed are available off the shelf in many other sizes and options including BETTER performance that the Vipers.

The block is MUCH more critical in high performance than the moving components as it must be light and yet strong enough to not twist under the stresses.
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Old 02-11-2011, 04:26 PM
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the original V10 was based off a truck engine...

it was a V8 with 2 extra holes.
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:29 PM
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a Viper without a V10 is like a vette without a V8 . Simple as that
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolieman1220 View Post
the original V10 was based off a truck engine...

it was a V8 with 2 extra holes.
This. Cheaper production, plus a torque monster... besides, no one else was gonna do it which guaranteed Dodge market position.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:56 AM
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An american sportscar with a V12 is somewhat strange to me... I really can't think of a single one (except the Chrysler ME-4-12 which was never built). Apart from that, V12s are super complicated an would have made the Viper less reliable. The V10 is fine, the only thing that has to change is the fuel economy .
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:01 AM
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V12's arent complicated, but they generally arent on a 90 degree bank angle like just about every V8. V6/I6 is a more logical start for a V12.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpv_gtho View Post
V12's arent complicated
More cylinders= more moving parts= more complicated.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:46 PM
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v12's work so well because they are balanced. v10's arn't. straight 6's are also great so why not put 2 together? = v12!
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:58 PM
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The V12 engine is the holy grail for the true car enthusiast. Enough said. However, the days of the good old naturally aspirated large capacity engine are numbered (well at least in the EU they are). Brussels want every car maker's fleet average emissions to be 130 grams of CO2 per kilometre by next year. I am not aware of the existence of a V12 car which emits < 300g/km. The USA doesn't have any limits on CO2 so I think that while Europe was always the home of the V12, this could change. Please America, start making V12s! But keep the V8s too. Whatever you do, don't start making very small turbocharged I4s.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:06 PM
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To answer the question: It's probably because V12s are very expensive and complex to develop. Also, the Viper was always known for having a massive, lazy, torque laden V10. The 8.3 V10 behaved in the way it was intended to and therefore Dodge kept an "If it ain't broke don't fix it" policy. Personally, I've always like the big Viper and the sound of it's V10 from the side of the race track. It still races in the British GT championship and it provides a good contrast to the more purpose built machines.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore GS/E View Post
An american sportscar with a V12 is somewhat strange to me... I really can't think of a single one (except the Chrysler ME-4-12 which was never built). Apart from that, V12s are super complicated an would have made the Viper less reliable. The V10 is fine, the only thing that has to change is the fuel economy .
I always thought of V12's as truck motors...
http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pi...ure/page05.jpg



Seriously though, before WW2 the US had a number of V12s including the Packard V12s which enchanted Enzo Ferrari.
1936 PACKARD V12 SPEEDSTER | Motor Cars Auction</li> | Pre War | Christie's


I think America moved away from V12s basically because they had little going for them over the very good V8s we had. There really isn't any reason to make a V12 when the US manufactures were so good at producing cost effective (and just out right great) V8 motors. This is likely why the V12 passed into obsurity in the US.

I suspect the Viper V10 came about in part because a V12 would be too long to fit in a truck. While Chrysler might have been able to extend the Viper chassis for a V12 I doubt they could have fit a V12 in the trucks. The V10 was meant to be Chrysler's big dog gas motor (Ford did the same thing). As thirsty as that might have been when Chrysler was making that choice, my Miata now cost more per mile than a V10 Ram truck did when the V10 first came out. I can imagine a V12 being any harder to produce from a V8 than this V10.

There is still a certain coolness to the V12 which will ensure it doesn't die out too fast in the highest end cars but really, there is little reason to pick a V12 over a V8 given a quality V8.

Last edited by culver; 02-12-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by group c n b man View Post
The V12 engine is the holy grail for the true car enthusiast. Enough said. However, the days of the good old naturally aspirated large capacity engine are numbered (well at least in the EU they are). Brussels want every car maker's fleet average emissions to be 130 grams of CO2 per kilometre by next year. I am not aware of the existence of a V12 car which emits < 300g/km. The USA doesn't have any limits on CO2 so I think that while Europe was always the home of the V12, this could change. Please America, start making V12s! But keep the V8s too. Whatever you do, don't start making very small turbocharged I4s.
The US doesn't have CO2 limits but we have mileage rules which are almost the same. They do differ in that diesel vs gas is directly comparable in Europe (since a liter of diesel doesn't have the same carbon content as a liter of gasoline).

Sadly, that means you guys are getting the same stupidity that we have with regards to fuel economy standards. The standards haven't proven that great in the US. At some point there is a natural balance where the price of gas and the purchasing choice of the average buyer line up such that the market naturally meets a given fuel economy target. During the Arab oil embargo in the late 1970s the average fuel economy of new cars in the US actually exceeded the the CAFE standards. During that time the price of gas was high enough to make people want cars that got mileage above the government targets. In the early 90s with ~$1.20/gallon gas (and into the later 90s when I found gas for my all time low of $0.69/gallon) the buying market would have been happy with high power 20mpg cars. Fuel economy was just a non-issue. When gas prices spiked, well we once again bought cars that exceeded CAFE mandates.

So I think it's clear that high fuel prices will bring fleet economy up by simple public demand. No need to write laws there. However, it goes father than that. Higher fuel costs cause people not only buy more fuel efficient cars but also to try to be more efficient with their existing cars. When gas was cheap I didn't care about driving 15 miles to some store to window shop. That trip cost me $1. At three times the price I start paying attention to such things. The cost of my commute went from $400/year to $1000/year. Well I can afford the extra $600 but I sure would rather spend that on other things! The high cost of gas makes people think about living closer to work and driving less. In the 1980s and 1990s suburban sprawl became really bad in the US. Part of the reason was that, thanks in part to our mandated high mileage cars, we could easily afford to live far out in the country and commute in to work. I could live in a small in town house and spend $400/year on gas or move to the country and spend $600/year. In the country I have a bigger house and bigger lot and... etc. Expensive gas is now causing a reversal of that trend (in conjunction with people who are tired of congestion).

Not to mention we can argue about do we need to limit CO2 or does it help if we do but that's another rant....

Anyway, that was my CAFE rant (modified to be a CO2/km rant).
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:50 AM
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Seagrave built large gasoline V12s from the 1930s untill recently, mainly for use in fire trucks though earlier they often saw marine service. The biggest difference between Dodge and Ford V10s was the Triton was a fresh sheet of paper design and OHC; Dodge based theirs on the 318 OHV V8. Both make good torque, the Triton gets slightly better fuel economy. Roughly the same dimensions so yes, packaging issues VS torque needed for trucks obviated any reason to produce V12s.

High US fuel prices? The fact that US fuel costs have been kept artificially low has been the key element in the expansion of sub and ex-urban development, to the extent that we use more energy per capita than any other country. Pretty sad that we only react when it costs more dollars to drive our SUVs to the mall than we want to pay. Then we bitch and complain about oil producers holding us hostage.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by culver View Post
The US doesn't have CO2 limits but we have mileage rules which are almost the same. They do differ in that diesel vs gas is directly comparable in Europe (since a liter of diesel doesn't have the same carbon content as a liter of gasoline).

Sadly, that means you guys are getting the same stupidity that we have with regards to fuel economy standards. The standards haven't proven that great in the US. At some point there is a natural balance where the price of gas and the purchasing choice of the average buyer line up such that the market naturally meets a given fuel economy target. During the Arab oil embargo in the late 1970s the average fuel economy of new cars in the US actually exceeded the the CAFE standards. During that time the price of gas was high enough to make people want cars that got mileage above the government targets. In the early 90s with ~$1.20/gallon gas (and into the later 90s when I found gas for my all time low of $0.69/gallon) the buying market would have been happy with high power 20mpg cars. Fuel economy was just a non-issue. When gas prices spiked, well we once again bought cars that exceeded CAFE mandates.

So I think it's clear that high fuel prices will bring fleet economy up by simple public demand. No need to write laws there. However, it goes father than that. Higher fuel costs cause people not only buy more fuel efficient cars but also to try to be more efficient with their existing cars. When gas was cheap I didn't care about driving 15 miles to some store to window shop. That trip cost me $1. At three times the price I start paying attention to such things. The cost of my commute went from $400/year to $1000/year. Well I can afford the extra $600 but I sure would rather spend that on other things! The high cost of gas makes people think about living closer to work and driving less. In the 1980s and 1990s suburban sprawl became really bad in the US. Part of the reason was that, thanks in part to our mandated high mileage cars, we could easily afford to live far out in the country and commute in to work. I could live in a small in town house and spend $400/year on gas or move to the country and spend $600/year. In the country I have a bigger house and bigger lot and... etc. Expensive gas is now causing a reversal of that trend (in conjunction with people who are tired of congestion).

Not to mention we can argue about do we need to limit CO2 or does it help if we do but that's another rant....

Anyway, that was my CAFE rant (modified to be a CO2/km rant).
Fuel in the US is still a couple of factors less than it is here. Regular unleaded is £1.29 per litre, which is over £6 per gallon which is about $10! Super unleaded and Diesel fuel are 4 or 5p higher than that per litre. My dad has a Subaru Impreza WRX with a Prodrive performance upgrade and he does 15,000 miles per year. He only gets about 280-300 miles per tank on average and I once calculated his annual fuel bill to be £2500, that's not far off $4000 per year! I keep on persuading him to buy a modern, fast diesel car which would offer similar performance but reduce his fuel bill by about £1000 per year. However he stubbornly thinks that the much higher buying cost of an Audi 3.0tdi or BMW 330d would negate any fuel saving advantages.
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