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  1. #1
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    *sigh*

    From a very poorly written MSN Autos article titled "Gas vs. Diesel. Hybrid Power"

    Diesel Efficiency
    Diesel-powered passenger vehicles are another fuel-efficient option.

    Popular in Europe, diesel models are limited in their availability in the U.S. because five states—California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont—prohibit their sale due to emission restrictions. Note that in contrast, gas-electric hybrid vehicles are sold in all states. Indeed, hybrids are far cleaner in many emission properties than even conventional gasoline vehicles.

    Still, diesels are known for getting extra mileage out of every gallon of fuel. They offer better torque than many gasoline engines. And their price differential over gasoline models generally is much smaller than that for hybrids.

    For example, Mercedes-Benz's midsize 2007 E320 diesel sedan has a starting MSRP of $51,550, which is only $1,000 more than the starting price for a 2007 E350 gasoline sedan.

    Yet the 3.0-liter V6 in the E320 BLUETEC sedan, as the diesel version is called, puts out an amazing 388 lb-ft of torque starting as low as 1600 rpm and compares with the 258 lb-ft of torque starting at 2400 rpm in the 3.5-liter V6 gasoline engine in the E350 sedan.

    The diesel E-Class's fuel economy rating is 26/35 mpg, for a combined 30 mpg, and compares with 19/26, for a combined 21 mpg, in the gasoline E350.

    Thus, if drivers maximized the diesel's fuel economy and got the 9 extra miles per gallon, it would take less three years to recoup the approximately $1,000 extra cost for the diesel engine in the E-Class if diesel prices were in the neighborhood of $2.40 a gallon.

    Other Diesel Matters
    Diesel engines are getting cleaner. Thanks to cleaner diesel fuel with lower sulfur content now available in the U.S. and new vehicle technology that filters or traps troubling engine particulate emissions, diesels are becoming cleaner than ever.

    In fact, Mercedes touts its Bluetec as the "cleanest diesel in the world" and has joined with Audi, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group to spread the Bluetec name across other diesel models in the coming years.

    Some consumers, however, will object to having a diesel because these cars typically—though not always—are noisier than gasoline-powered vehicles. Some buyers also might object to the telltale odor that is associated with diesel vehicles.

    And, not every urban filling station has a diesel pump. In some cases, drivers might need to venture farther from suburban neighborhoods to locate a place to fill up.

    Nonetheless, diesel engines have been with us for a long time—the first diesel-powered passenger car was a 1936 Mercedes—and diesel engines are known for their durability. Hence, they're standard fare under the hoods of big semi-trucks.
    I just love how they fail to mention that Volkswagen AG's TDi is almost silent...the only diesel engines that are loud are the ones in trucks...

    I swear every alternative fuel article that comes up on MSN Autos, they're quick to bash diesel.

    Thanks for making Americans believe that diesel sucks

  2. #2
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    I'm sorry but diesel engines aren't silent. They have improved over the years but they aren't as good as a good petrol engine. Especially VAG diesels...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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    It's things like this that made many Americans flock to hybrids. It's probably paid propaganda - by whom, I can only guess....
    "I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring" - Richard Feynman, last recorded words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I'm sorry but diesel engines aren't silent. They have improved over the years but they aren't as good as a good petrol engine. Especially VAG diesels...
    Well, you can barely hear the engine in the VW Jetta TDi...but how can people be stupid enough to get a petrol car that gets worse MPG just because the diesel is louder? (talking about America)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    Well, you can barely hear the engine in the VW Jetta TDi...but how can people be stupid enough to get a petrol car that gets worse MPG just because the diesel is louder? (talking about America)
    Well I know your petrol cars here aren't the best, but over here we've got very decent petrol cars that are very frugal (latest BMWs and Volkswagen TSIs). And having driven a 2005 Seat Ibiza TDI I can assure you VAG diesels aren't quiet. I can understand that if one does very high mileages might be interested in them, but I personally would never buy one.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Well I know your petrol cars here aren't the best, but over here we've got very decent petrol cars that are very frugal (latest BMWs and Volkswagen TSIs). And having driven a 2005 Seat Ibiza TDI I can assure you VAG diesels aren't quiet.
    What about Peugeot HDi? (There's been a rumour that Peugeot might come back to the US...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    What about Peugeot HDi? (There's been a rumour that Peugeot might come back to the US...)
    I honestly don't have first hand experience with them, but judging by cabs here not that good either. Altough I'm sure henk4 will correct me on this...

    Precisely PSA have the brilliant new 1.6-litre petrols, frugal and fast.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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    Why would you want it to silent, anyway? That would bother the hell out me. But, then, diesels don't make a very pretty sound...

    Frankly, I hate diesels. They're not at all inspiring to me, anyway. They work for towing, but other than that, why not just make a more efficient gasoline or alcohol burning engine?

    Quick question- why do diesels cost more?
    Last edited by Mr.Tiv; 06-03-2007 at 11:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv View Post
    Quick question- why do diesels cost more?
    It has to do with them being built differently.

    I think I can answer why diesel fuel in Canada is more expensive than gas, though. My guess is its because they don't want diesel fueled vehicles to be bought over the gasoline fueled products. Gas engines don't get as much mileage, therefore they need to be fueled more often, therefore more profit for gas companies. Another interesting tidbit, the current model year Jetta TDI didn't make it over to Canada, because "it couldn't meet emissions regulations." The oil boys probably got scared when they saw how many people were buying them and saving money on fuel, so they pulled a few strings and had the car pulled out all together. How could a little Jetta not meet emissions regulations here while the streets are becoming increasingly crowded with the latest trucks and suvs from Ford and GM. Some things make no sense.

  10. #10
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    I don't understand why diesels haven't caught in the US, I can speculate that there are many factors; the price and the fact that even still gas is not as expensive as in Europe, etc. But also back in the 70s during the gas crisis a lot of American makers tried to make diesel engines and they were terribly unreliable, broke down needed rebuilds, etc so I think a lot of Americans remember diesels for that and because of that don't have faith in them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv View Post
    Quick question- why do diesels cost more?
    Basically because of the higher pressures in the cilinders they need heavier parts to cope with these stresses. That is basically everything

    Quote Originally Posted by RobPorsche

    I think I can answer why diesel fuel in Canada is more expensive than gas, though. My guess is its because they don't want diesel fueled vehicles to be bought over the gasoline fueled products. Gas engines don't get as much mileage, therefore they need to be fueled more often, therefore more profit for gas companies. Another interesting tidbit, the current model year Jetta TDI didn't make it over to Canada, because "it couldn't meet emissions regulations." The oil boys probably got scared when they saw how many people were buying them and saving money on fuel, so they pulled a few strings and had the car pulled out all together. How could a little Jetta not meet emissions regulations here while the streets are becoming increasingly crowded with the latest trucks and suvs from Ford and GM. Some things make no sense.
    it might be because of the NOx gasses, but I don't know the exact law thingy offcourse from over there
    Last edited by drakkie; 06-03-2007 at 12:45 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by drakkie View Post
    Basically because of the higher pressures in the cilinders they need heavier parts to cope with these stresses. That is basically everything
    So there's simply more material in them; thus they are more costly to manufacture... Thanks.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv View Post
    So there's simply more material in them; thus they are more costly to manufacture... Thanks.
    Not neccesarily more nowadays... Just stronger stuff (=more expensive).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    I just love how they fail to mention that Volkswagen AG's TDi is almost silent...the only diesel engines that are loud are the ones in trucks...
    Haha. VAG diesels are probably the loudest and worst sounding diesel engines on the market. And they to love burst out black smoke.

    The 2.7 HDi is probably the best diesel engine you can buy today (along with the biturbo 3.0 BMW diesel found in the 335d and 535d).
    Last edited by Lagonda; 06-04-2007 at 03:00 AM. Reason: fixed retarded sentence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    Well, you can barely hear the engine in the VW Jetta TDi...but how can people be stupid enough to get a petrol car that gets worse MPG just because the diesel is louder? (talking about America)
    The jetta has good occupant sound deadening, pedestrians will however hera that disticct 'pump-duse' unit injection diesel sound plainly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv View Post
    Why would you want it to silent, anyway? That would bother the hell out me. But, then, diesels don't make a very pretty sound...

    Frankly, I hate diesels. They're not at all inspiring to me, anyway. They work for towing, but other than that, why not just make a more efficient gasoline or alcohol burning engine?

    Quick question- why do diesels cost more?
    listen to a bmw i6 diesel, or audi le-mans, or audi V12 coming soon (which uses common rail! -not VAG unit inkection)

    Well petrol will not resist self ignition to the compression ratio that makes diesel so thermally efficient (25% vs 35% -roughly)

    diesel compression ratios are high which means for example the pressure at which fuel needs to be directly injected is even higher, this requires extra strength and tighter tolerances demanding more indepth engineering and manufacturing accuracy over petrols. Furthermore in europ diesels are typically more desirable, with better mpg, hence manufactrers can bump up the cost without sacrificing sales, i guess thats why diesel is more pricey than petrol here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagonda View Post
    Haha. VAG diesels are probably the loudest and worst sounding diesel engines on the market. And they love burst our black smoke.

    The 2.7 HDi is probably the best diesel engine you can buy today (along with the biturbo 3.0 BMW diesel found in the 335d and 535d).
    I have seen relatively new passats etc pump out black crap quite often, i guess there are some grievences. the 2.7 is a great unit in terms of refinement, a real step forward many peoples opinion.
    Last edited by jediali; 06-03-2007 at 03:57 PM.
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