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Thread: 2008 Formula One Belgian Grand Prix

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by fisetdavid26 View Post
    Fuji Speedway officials. You could do a complete lap outside the track.

    Sand or gravel ftw.
    Also worth noting the neither Kubica or Massa were penalised for that. In fact most of us thought it was great racing.
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
    But didn't Hamilton give the position back?
    Also, from the appeal, I note that McLaren asked Race Control if the pass on Kimi was OK and they said it was (I assume McLaren has transcripts of this conversation). Why did the stewards change their mind later when there existed the immediate option to say, "no, let Kimi back past or Lewis will be penalised".
    Are race control and the stewards necessarily one in the same? McLarens claim is that they directly asked Charlie Whiting regarding the move.
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  3. #108
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    Whiting is permanent, stewards rotate.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  4. #109
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    Whiting don't do the officiating, the stewards does....
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Whiting don't do the officiating, the stewards does....
    Track race stewards do the minute-to-minute stuff.
    Charlie is god and responsible for ensuring all runs to FIA regs.

    THe problem with all this is I think that Hamilton was intelligent about using the rules for yielding

    There is no debate that he did give up the place and allowed Kimi to pass ... but he did it whilst maintaining his momentum and immediately planting it to tuck in and then overtake him again. How long is he expected to be behind before overtaking the clearly slower car ?

    And therein lies the "flaw" in the rule that the issue is being debated around. ....

    WHen has a driver actually yielded and do they have to follow the driver who they give the position back to for a period of time, distance or corners for it to be acceptable ?

    As currently understood, Hamilton obeyed the rules !!

    Finally on the point of tarmac run-offs. In todays safety concsious era then beached cars in kitty litter on the outside of corners after fast straights woudl always bring out a safety car ! No thanks. Let's just stick to the rules we have ... if you cut a corner to avoid an incident then you have to give up any advantage gained. It does NOT say you should suffer any extra time/speed penalty. If you repeatedly perform an action at the same corner then it's deliberate and you get black flagged.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  6. #111
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    McLaren thought FIA ‘OK’ was enough - F1 | ITV Sport

    "Of course Charlie can only give an opinion because he's not the stewards, but he gave the opinion that we had complied properly to the regulations.”

    from how I read that sentence, he does not make the call...he controls how the race is run and proceed, but not making judgement call for on track incident....

    BTW, I thought from a while back that FIA are actually using same stewards from race to race now? When they revert back to changing stewardship?
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
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  7. #112
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    Lauda slams Hamilton ruling

    NIKI LAUDA has described the decision that robbed Lewis Hamilton of victory in the Belgian Grand Prix as being “the worst judgment in the history of F1”.
    The three-time world champion driver said the sport was close to losing its integrity after Hamilton had been hit with a retrospective 25-second drive-through penalty for 'cutting a corner and gaining an advantage'.

    "I do not understand this completely wrong decision," said Lauda.

    Hamilton had attempted to overtake Kimi Raikkonen at the Bus Stop chicane at the end of lap 42 of the Spa Francorchamps circuit, but ended up using the run off area to avoid a collision.

    Lauda said: "Lewis had an advantage, but then he let him [Raikkonen] go by, then he simply out-braked him into the corner.

    "There was no slipstreaming involved, nothing.

    "If Lewis had stayed behind Kimi through the chicane, he would have passed him in front of the pits, because Lewis and the McLaren, at that time in the race in the wet, were so much quicker.

    "So I do not understand this decision, and it's really bad for the sport because people watching will not watch any more because of this stupid decision."

    Lauda, 59, also said that he could understand accusations that Ferrari were being shown favouritism by officials.

    "In the past, there have always been rumours and stories," said Lauda. "I've always been completely against them because they've never been proven - that Ferrari, because of its past and history, was always against McLaren with the stewards and the FIA, who if there was a decision, were in favour of Ferrari."

    "I've always said this is bulls**t, that this is a sport and you have to be neutral.

    "But the decision yesterday makes me believe that everyone is watching Ferrari in a positive way and McLaren in a very negative way.

    "What developed yesterday is the biggest mess the sport has ever done.

    "It's unbelievable how the best driver in yesterday's race makes no mistakes and only gets six points.

    “This is the worst judgment in the history of F1, the most perverted judgment I have ever seen.”
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    not making judgement call for on track incident....
    correct. However as he is the sole person utlimately responsible for the event complying to all FIA regs then this will come back to him as part of the post-race evaluation.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    And therein lies the "flaw" in the rule that the issue is being debated around...
    I think there are many "flaws" in the rules.

    What do you suspect would have happened if Kimi decided not to pass Lewis after he cut the corner the first time (thus keeping Lewis in violation of the gaining an unfair advantage rule), and simply followed Lewis around, slowing down if Lewis tried to let him past (even stopping if necessary, if Lewis was to), and thus allowed Massa to catch up and pass both cars? What would the stewards do in this case?

    A real stretch I know, but with the DC and CC on the line, how far will each team push the rules?

    BTW Shumi was a master at bending the rules to suit his needs.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringle View Post
    I think there are many "flaws" in the rules.
    That's the problem with all rules and why they need updating as circumstances show up the ommissions
    What do you suspect would have happened if Kimi decided not to pass Lewis after he cut the corner the first time
    erm, Lewis woudl have driven SLOWER until he did !
    You can see he is dropping his speed to let Kimi pass.
    THen you woudl have had the NEW issue with the rule in that it doesn't have a clause covering the driver who choses to try that. However, there are enough other rules around that could be appled om that case on the day
    What would the stewards do in this case?
    Penalise him for deliberately slowing down.
    A real stretch I know, but with the DC and CC on the line, how far will each team push the rules?
    Teams and drivers have ALWAYS "pushed the rules" ... we normally call it innovation
    BTW Shumi was a master at bending the rules to suit his needs.
    Schumi was an amateur beside Colin Chapman
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #116
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    I hope the WMC reinstates Hamilton's win.
    Because at this point, it's going to go before the WMC.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    I also disagree with that statement because that was not what I meant to say. If you cut a corner, gain direct advantage during a fight with a competitor and don't give it back, you'll get 25 seconds (the equivalent of a drive through) when this takes place during the final five laps of a race. Hope that is clear now.
    In light of Lewis giving the position back, is the penalty still justified in line with the rules, precedence, and accepted practice of past decisions?

  13. #118
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    That's the discrepancy that most of us who are angered and confused by this ruling are pointing at. I breifly scanned teh internetz and found this:
    Quote Originally Posted by F1.net
    From: The stewards of the meeting

    To: The team manager, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

    The stewards, having received a report from the Race Director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have considered the following matter, determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to.

    No./driver: 22, Lewis Hamilton

    Time: 15:21:33

    Facts: Cut the chicane and gained an advantage

    Offence: Breach of Article 30.3(a) of the 2008 FIA Formula 1 sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (go) of the International Sporting Code.

    Penalty: Drive-through penalty (Article 16.3 (a)), since this is being applied at the end of the race, 25 seconds will be added to the driver’s elapsed race time.

    FIA Stewards of the Meeting

    Received by: Lewis Hamilton, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
    Rules involved to follow in next post
    Last edited by f6fhellcat13; 09-10-2008 at 06:25 PM.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  14. #119
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    From everybody's favorite governing body of motorsport:
    I've bolded some key points, but the rest is also somewhat worth reading
    Quote Originally Posted by The FIA
    Article 30.3(a) 2008 FIA formula one sporting regulations

    30) GENERAL SAFETY

    30.3 a)

    During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

    Appendix L Chapter 4 Article 2(g) International Sporting Code

    CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
    (Art. 1 refers to Overtaking in the contents page)

    a) During a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
    b) If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use of his rear-view mirror the flag marshal(s) will give a warning by waving the blue flag to indicate that another competitor wants to overtake.
    Any driver who does not take notice of the blue flag may be penalised by the Sporting Stewards. Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of the offender from the race.
    c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left. However, maneuvers liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion from the race.
    d) Any obstructive maneuver carried out by one or several drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fan shaped arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue flag will be waved.
    e) The penalty inflicted for ignoring the blue flag will also be applied to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be more severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The same penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking.
    f) The repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the exclusion of the drivers concerned.
    g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.

    Drive through penalty Article 16.3 (a)

    16) INCIDENTS

    16.1

    "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which:

    - Necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41;
    - Constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code;
    - Caused a false start by one or more cars;
    - Caused a collision;
    - Forced a driver off the track;
    - Illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking maneuver by a driver;
    - Illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

    Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

    16.2

    a) It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.


    b) If an incident is under investigation by the stewards a message informing all teams which driver or drivers are involved will be displayed on the timing monitors.

    Provided that such a message is displayed no later than five minutes after the race has finished the driver or drivers concerned may not leave the circuit without the consent of the stewards.

    16.3

    The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:

    a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping;

    b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.

    c) A drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.

    However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
    Edit: Strangely it says nothing about drivers reliquishing their position, maybe that's some kind of gentleman's agreement between the drivers?
    Last edited by f6fhellcat13; 09-10-2008 at 06:34 PM.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  15. #120
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    I though this was an interesting analysis of those rules. Sorry about posting so many times, im pretty worked up about this and im psting things as i find them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokil-F1Fanatic.co.uk
    You will first note that the article number of the item refered to in the Stewards Letter is incorrect, they refer to Article 2 when the contents refer to Overtaking as Article 1, and any bright Barrister might win an argument that they used the wrong section. Put it this way, if you were charged with an offence and the Police used the wrong act or section then the court would dismiss the case.

    CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
    Art. 1 Overtaking
    Art. 2 Stopping of a car during the race
    Art. 3 Entrance to the refuelling pits

    Also, there needs to be a defination of "The Track" - as it states "racing must be kept to the Track", the FIA rules refer The Track as including "Run Offs" "Grassed Areas" "Pit Lane" "Gravel Traps" etc etc so why penalise Hamilton when he was in fact using "The Track" at all times.

    More interesting is the following section C, D, F and G;

    c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left. However, maneuvers liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion from the race.
    d) Any obstructive maneuver carried out by one or several drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fan shaped arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue flag will be waved.
    f) The repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the exclusion of the drivers concerned.
    g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

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