What kind of education do I need?

[elemein]

Hello, right now I'm 15 years old and in Gr10. I absolutely love cars and know lots about them, and I've known for years I want it to be my career. I specifically would love to work as a "High Performance Engine Specialist" or basically 'guy that works on race engines'. I would love to work in a Roush or Steeda or Saleen or some similar racing team or workshop, and I'd love to be right in there with the guts and gears of the cars.

Anyway, next year I'm taking University Physics, Autoshop II (skipping I), Tech Design II (skipping I) and a few other courses, and in Gr12 I'm doing University Physics II, Autoshop III and Tech Design III, and other courses. Possibly University Chem.

So that's my highschool.

Im quite sure I'm not academically up to University, but College, I can do. I was thinking of getting an Advanced Diploma (3 years) in Mechanical Engineering - Automotive, and perhaps even an additional 1 year certificate in some kind of specialized auto field. Possibly.

So, do you think that'll be enough education to achieve my career dream?

Also, do you think my career dream is a good one? Does anyone here do that?

[Kitdy]

So you are looking to more be onto the fabrication/repair/technician side of things than as an engineer then? If you wanted to be on the design side of things I would assume you'd want to throw in some math courses and go to university. The kind of job you are looking for is scarce.

One thing you could do is just send a few emails to the hiring managers of some prospective companies you'd like to work for down the road and ask them what the resume/CV or a successful candidate would be.

As an aside, are introductory calculus, functions and relations, and geometry and discrete mathematics still available as grade 12 courses?

Are you looking at going to college, not university then? If you are, make sure to do your homework. Contact the colleges you want to go to and dig deep, and do it sooner rather than later. Grade 12 can be a busy year, and there are already tons of distractions int your life at that point. Look into the rate of employment of graduates with a diploma from each program you are interested in, as this is very useful information. Ask what kind of jobs new grads will get and what their pay would be. Know the programs/colleges you are applying to inside and out.

Knock down doors, go talk to people face to face, or on the phone, or on email. Speak with your guidance counsellor and parents about what kinda schools you;d like to attend and make a list of pros and cons for each.

This is serious shit.

Also, it never hurts to keep your marks high as this will keep more doors open. The courses you are taking look to be pretty good; I am not sure if any mathematics courses would be desirable or which ones are available in grade 11 anymore.

TL;DNR: Work hard, do your homework when it comes to looking into the education you need, and enjoy yourself!

Your dream jobs seems pretty cool and if you pay your cards right you can achieve it. RacingManiac will probably have some good advice.

[elemein]

So you are looking to more be onto the fabrication/repair/technician side of things than as an engineer then? If you wanted to be on the design side of things I would assume you'd want to throw in some math courses and go to university. The kind of job you are looking for is scarce.

I am not good at academic math as aforementioned. That is why I'm not going to University, but instead College. And not so much repair or technician, moreso racing and performance and specialization. I've been told by professionals that even people without college education can be a repair tech. I don't want to be just a repair tech.

One thing you could do is just send a few emails to the hiring managers of some prospective companies you'd like to work for down the road and ask them what the resume/CV or a successful candidate would be.

CV?

As an aside, are introductory calculus, functions and relations, and geometry and discrete mathematics still available as grade 12 courses?

Some of those are.. I'm not sure of the exact areas covered in the course... But I'm taking Mixed level courses for Math (Suited for above College but below University, therefore mixed)

Are you looking at going to college, not university then? Yes If you are, make sure to do your homework. Contact the colleges you want to go to and dig deep, and do it sooner rather than later. Of course Grade 12 can be a busy year, and there are already tons of distractions int your life at that point. Look into the rate of employment of graduates with a diploma from each program you are interested in, as this is very useful information. Ask what kind of jobs new grads will get and what their pay would be. Know the programs/colleges you are applying to inside and out.

Knock down doors, go talk to people face to face, or on the phone, or on email. Speak with your guidance counsellor and parents about what kinda schools you;d like to attend and make a list of pros and cons for each.

This is serious shit.

Also, it never hurts to keep your marks high as this will keep more doors open. The courses you are taking look to be pretty good; I am not sure if any mathematics courses would be desirable or which ones are available in grade 11 anymore. There isnt any specific courses in Gr11 for math. Just the course level; Workplace (lowest), College (Second lowest), Mixed (Second highest), and University (Highest)

TL;DNR: Work hard, do your homework when it comes to looking into the education you need, and enjoy yourself!

Your dream jobs seems pretty cool and if you pay your cards right you can achieve it. RacingManiac will probably have some good advice.

Thank you very much!

Answered some in bolds.

I've looked at the programs I may be interested in and specifically at specific colleges, and they require that you must be good in either a Science area or a Mathematics area with a decent English mark. Now, my Math isnt great, but my Science on the other hand is my bread and butter, and that's what I'll use to get into the College of my choice.

Edit: Just to clarify a bit, these are the type of programs I am looking into (and coincidentally, some of the colleges I particularily want to go to)

Program Outline: Major MTAP - Mechanical Engineering Technology - Automotive Product Design
Program Outline: Major META - Mechanical Engineering Technology - Automotive Manufacturing
St. Clair College - Full Time Programs - Mechanical Engineering Technology - Automotive Product Design

[Kitdy]

Eh, never mind about CV. It is similar to a resume (and what the Europeans call a resume as I understand it) and I just checked it is being used in North America now but for academia/medicine.

Well then, I would just ensure with the companies you want to work with that the college programs (as opposed to university ones) are sufficient.

I am still not exactly sure what the job you want is though; what kinds of things would you do as a race engine specialist?

Apologies to any Windsorites reading (I do not know if you live there), but my buddy is going to U of W there and he says it's a brutal city.

As you very likely know, physics specifically and science more generally will become more math intensive in grade 11 and 12, so be prepared!

I may sound like a grumbling old man (I arguably am one in spirit), but the math curriculum reform in this province seems pretty silly. I graduated HS in the mid-2000s and in grade 11/12 there were three upper level math courses, all aimed at the university level students: Functions and Relations (11), Intro to Calculus and Advanced Functions (12), and Geometry and Discrete (12). All three were required for engineering, and G and D was basically an abstract problem solving course that promoted creative thinking withing a mathematical framework. I got a low mark in that class (and in calculus for that matter), but it was probably the best math course I ever took. They G and D years ago, and I have heard that in Ontario calculus at the high school level is under threat. This has created the problem of a lot of math/engineering/science/pre-med students as having insufficient calculus for first year university.

I already mentioned this, but keep in mind that the years when you finish high school and go to college, you are in the prime of your life, so make sure you work hard but always balance that with chillin', socializing, and enjoying yourself! Aristotle always preached balance and the happy mean - wise words to live by!

[henk4]

CV stands for Curriculum Vitae, in other words: a summary (resume) of what you have done educationwise and proefessionally in your life so far.

[Kitdy]

Also, always have a backup plan for if you don't make it into the college/program/job/company/career you want.

[drakkie]

I am now almost finished with my studies and will likely start in a full-time job in the next few months. I did a course in Automotive Engineering at the University of Applied Sciences of Rotterdam. What you definately need to get to your dream job is talent and charisma. Having the right education is only the beginning.

The automotive world is probably the most conservative one out there, though they look different to the outside. The main thing is do as they expect you to and slowly work your way up. Simple as that. Don't start with the expectation to get the job right out of school. They will just laugh in your face then. Start from the bottom. My first days in the factory (DAF) I spent in a overall on the production line, doing the real thing. Just one day per station, got me tonnes of respect from the guys there and gave me invaluable data which might prove the key to a succesful ending of my thesis.

Also as Kitdy said, always have a backup plan. I wrote two career paths for myself. One realistic one and my dream. You'll find out soon enough the dream is not worth pursuing.

I realised also that they love to have an engineer that isn't specialised in 1 thing, for example engines. If you know your way around chassis, drivetrain or interior fabrication you will climb up the ladder soon enough. The guy that is focused on one thing ends up doing the same for years because he is the expert and they don't want some newer unexperienced guy coming in and taking the job. During my studies I always tried to learn on subjects outside of my study. I tried all kinds of CAD-programmes and mastered most. (This helped so much here, switching between software is no problem and the learning was so much easier and faster).

Don't forget to go to congresses and stuff and get to know as many people as possible. You'll only get there with the right connections. Plus it can be really handy as well sometimes, actually knowing the people saved me atleast a few hours and gave me honest data from suppliers a few times instead of bullsh*t because they dont know you.

It's probably not useful to you but in the Netherlands we now have 4 studies in Automotive. 2 in Eindhoven, one in Rotterdam and one in Arnhem. As far as I know there are quite a lot in Germany and England, as well as Dunkirk, France and Prague, Czech Republic.

[Magnum9987]

If you want to get into Racing engines, the very best school to go to is the School of Automotive Machinists in Houston, Texas. They offer three 18 month courses, cylinder head machining, block and cam machining, and CNC machining. Student race teams hold all sorts of national records. I'm looking to go to that school myself when I graduate.

[RacingManiac]

The "Guy who works on race engines" job description is kinda vague. The specific design work going into how to make an race engine tick and perform well is truly engineering level work. There are people out there who build stuff empirically and have years of experiences to draw on, but they are no longer the norm. Big companies who are powertrain specialists like Ricardo, AVL, FEV, Mahle...etc are heavily into modeling, simulation and other advanced development technique. The guy who turn wrenches and actually hands-on "build" the engines are the technicians and mechanics. Personally I am not sure where the middle ground is. There are also other work in the middle who design the mechanical components that goes into the engine, to design, analyse and test the parts that satisfy the various performance parameter that can translate the theoretical model into actual functioning machines. But their work also requires a fundamental understanding of mechanics, material and other engineering concepts. Reading the curriculum description of the 3 linked programs they actually don't seem that bad. As it probably covers the meat of what's useful and without a lot of the heavy theory stuff. At University level you are likely on your own as far as gaining functional knowledge in how to apply what you learn, so there is some advantage there. At the end of the day its what you learn and how you apply it(and promote yourself) that can land you the job you want.

I went through the mechanical engineering program at Toronto and probably left to not too impressive GPA, but I got my current job as a design engineer at a supplier in US developing advanced suspension/driveline solution because I did Formula SAE, which employers do value as you get actual engineering and design experience, not just "book" knowledge.

Also I have very little knowledge of how the current highschool system works, as I came from the old OAC system, to go into engineering for me, it was OAC Calculus, OAC Algebra, OAC Physics, OAC Chemistry, and OAC English as the required credit, I did OAC Finite Math as the optional credit.

To be perfectly honest though, if you want to do anything engineering, you need to bulk up your math....its going to be the basis of everything you do.

[elemein]

Wow, I definetely was not expecting all these replies so quickly, thank you very much, I'll try to reply to you all.

Eh, never mind about CV. It is similar to a resume (and what the Europeans call a resume as I understand it) and I just checked it is being used in North America now but for academia/medicine.

Ah okay, thanks, never heard of those before.

Well then, I would just ensure with the companies you want to work with that the college programs (as opposed to university ones) are sufficient.

I'm not 100% sure which companies I want to work with though...

I am still not exactly sure what the job you want is though; what kinds of things would you do as a race engine specialist?

I would specialize in working in performance engines for race events or show events, or just general designing. I would also not mind working in a custom build workshop for performance

Apologies to any Windsorites reading (I do not know if you live there), but my buddy is going to U of W there and he says it's a brutal city.

Nope, I don't live in Windsor. I live in Mississauga.

As you very likely know, physics specifically and science more generally will become more math intensive in grade 11 and 12, so be prepared!

Oddly enough, I'm good at Phsyics math, and can do it just fine, but when it comes to doing Math for... Math, I'm not good at it.

I may sound like a grumbling old man (I arguably am one in spirit), but the math curriculum reform in this province seems pretty silly. I graduated HS in the mid-2000s and in grade 11/12 there were three upper level math courses, all aimed at the university level students: Functions and Relations (11), Intro to Calculus and Advanced Functions (12), and Geometry and Discrete (12). All three were required for engineering, and G and D was basically an abstract problem solving course that promoted creative thinking withing a mathematical framework. We do not have G & D anymore, but we have the other ones I got a low mark in that class (and in calculus for that matter), but it was probably the best math course I ever took. They G and D years ago, and I have heard that in Ontario calculus at the high school level is under threat. This has created the problem of a lot of math/engineering/science/pre-med students as having insufficient calculus for first year university. I didnt know that

I already mentioned this, but keep in mind that the years when you finish high school and go to college, you are in the prime of your life, so make sure you work hard but always balance that with chillin', socializing, and enjoying yourself! Aristotle always preached balance and the happy mean - wise words to live by! Of course! I try to work as hard as I can as well as be as stress-less as possible.

Thanks again Kitdy! I will also make sure to have a backup plan!

I am now almost finished with my studies and will likely start in a full-time job in the next few months. I did a course in Automotive Engineering at the University of Applied Sciences of Rotterdam. What you definately need to get to your dream job is talent and charisma. Having the right education is only the beginning. Good to know, unfortunately I don't know many people in the industry myself, but my dad knows a few of them and maybe he could help me out

The automotive world is probably the most conservative one out there, though they look different to the outside. The main thing is do as they expect you to and slowly work your way up. Simple as that. Don't start with the expectation to get the job right out of school. They will just laugh in your face then. Start from the bottom. My first days in the factory (DAF) I spent in a overall on the production line, doing the real thing. Just one day per station, got me tonnes of respect from the guys there and gave me invaluable data which might prove the key to a succesful ending of my thesis. Okay thank you, that's very good to know.

Also as Kitdy said, always have a backup plan. I wrote two career paths for myself. One realistic one and my dream. You'll find out soon enough the dream is not worth pursuing. Hopefully I'll be able to pursue my dream...

I realised also that they love to have an engineer that isn't specialised in 1 thing, for example engines. If you know your way around chassis, drivetrain or interior fabrication you will climb up the ladder soon enough. The guy that is focused on one thing ends up doing the same for years because he is the expert and they don't want some newer unexperienced guy coming in and taking the job. During my studies I always tried to learn on subjects outside of my study. I tried all kinds of CAD-programmes and mastered most. (This helped so much here, switching between software is no problem and the learning was so much easier and faster). Good to know, will keep in mind.

Don't forget to go to congresses and stuff and get to know as many people as possible. You'll only get there with the right connections. Plus it can be really handy as well sometimes, actually knowing the people saved me atleast a few hours and gave me honest data from suppliers a few times instead of bullsh*t because they dont know you.

It's probably not useful to you but in the Netherlands we now have 4 studies in Automotive. 2 in Eindhoven, one in Rotterdam and one in Arnhem. As far as I know there are quite a lot in Germany and England, as well as Dunkirk, France and Prague, Czech Republic.

Thank you very much!

If you want to get into Racing engines, the very best school to go to is the School of Automotive Machinists in Houston, Texas. They offer three 18 month courses, cylinder head machining, block and cam machining, and CNC machining. Student race teams hold all sorts of national records. I'm looking to go to that school myself when I graduate.

Unfortunately that's not an option for me as I'm a Canadian.

The "Guy who works on race engines" job description is kinda vague. The specific design work going into how to make an race engine tick and perform well is truly engineering level work. I don't wanna be at a manufacturer-level of work, moreso just team-level work. Like aforementioned Steeda or Silva or Roush and such. Not main manufacturers, but teams moresoThere are people out there who build stuff empirically and have years of experiences to draw on, but they are no longer the norm. Big companies who are powertrain specialists like Ricardo, AVL, FEV, Mahle...etc are heavily into modeling, simulation and other advanced development technique. The guy who turn wrenches and actually hands-on "build" the engines are the technicians and mechanics. Personally I am not sure where the middle ground is. There are also other work in the middle who design the mechanical components that goes into the engine, to design, analyse and test the parts that satisfy the various performance parameter that can translate the theoretical model into actual functioning machines. But their work also requires a fundamental understanding of mechanics, material and other engineering concepts. Where do you think I would slot in with college education? Reading the curriculum description of the 3 linked programs they actually don't seem that bad. As it probably covers the meat of what's useful and without a lot of the heavy theory stuff. At University level you are likely on your own as far as gaining functional knowledge in how to apply what you learn, so there is some advantage there. At the end of the day its what you learn and how you apply it(and promote yourself) that can land you the job you want. Good to know

I went through the mechanical engineering program at Toronto and probably left to not too impressive GPA, but I got my current job as a design engineer at a supplier in US developing advanced suspension/driveline solution because I did Formula SAE, which employers do value as you get actual engineering and design experience, not just "book" knowledge. Formula SAE? Will take a look into that.

Also I have very little knowledge of how the current highschool system works, as I came from the old OAC system, to go into engineering for me, it was OAC Calculus, OAC Algebra, OAC Physics, OAC Chemistry, and OAC English as the required credit, I did OAC Finite Math as the optional credit.

College doesnt require quite as much academics. The programs I want to get into require C, M, or U level Mathematics as well as an additional credit in a science course (either C, M or U) of either Chemistry or Physics. Physics would be where I'd put myself.

To be perfectly honest though, if you want to do anything engineering, you need to bulk up your math....its going to be the basis of everything you do. I know, and I am trying my best to understand and get through math...

Thanks everyone!

[Magnum9987]

You aren't willing to take schooling abroad? Yet you want to work for the likes of Roush or Saleen?

[elemein]

You aren't willing to take schooling abroad? Yet you want to work for the likes of Roush or Saleen?

I am willing. Though my parents arent.

I count myself lucky actually, one of my friends are restricted to Universities in Mississauga ONLY and he MUST take something for Computer Science.

... Theres only one university. So his parents effectively chose his university 100%.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm allowed a nice bit further, but gotta stay canuck.

Once I graduate though, I'm free to do as I please of course.

Also, we're not the most wealthy family...

Edit: Also, I don't mind working for smaller name teams that arent as big as Roush or Saleen, I just want to be able to do what I love and make a nice salary at the same time. In case anyone was wondering SPECIFICALLY what I wanted to do; I want the hands-on job. Not the engineer job; but the hands-on job guy that physically builds and works on the engines. I believe that'd be a technician or specialist right?

[Kitdy]

I did OAC Finite Math as the optional credit.

Probably similar to what was called G and D for me.

I like the idea of high school until age 18 instead of 17, but as no one else in Canada or the US does it, it kinda screwed over Ontario students. Oh well. In an ideal world...

And OAC? Damn, you're old. You were in the double cohort, right?

I am willing. Though my parents arent.

I count myself lucky actually, one of my friends are restricted to Universities in Mississauga ONLY and he MUST take something for Computer Science.

... Theres only one university. So his parents effectively chose his university 100%.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm allowed a nice bit further, but gotta stay canuck.

Once I graduate though, I'm free to do as I please of course.

Also, we're not the most wealthy family...

Edit: Also, I don't mind working for smaller name teams that arent as big as Roush or Saleen, I just want to be able to do what I love and make a nice salary at the same time. In case anyone was wondering SPECIFICALLY what I wanted to do; I want the hands-on job. Not the engineer job; but the hands-on job guy that physically builds and works on the engines. I believe that'd be a technician or specialist right?

If you or your friend are willing to pay for university, at age 17/18, theoretically you won't have to listen to your parents anymore.

Then again, it's nice to graduate with no debt. Problem is then your parents have a say in where you go.

EDIT: I dunno if FSAE is at colleges, but it seems like a really good idea to do. RM and I visited U of T's team a few months ago, and talking to him about it, it seems like its a brotherhood. You can develop a lot of connections and get hands on experience in fabrication, as well as spend a lot of time on the design end of things. He and hellcat would know a lot more about than I would.

[elemein]

Probably similar to what was called G and D for me.

I like the idea of high school until age 18 instead of 17, but as no one else in Canada or the US does it, it kinda screwed over Ontario students. Oh well. In an ideal world...

And OAC? Damn, you're old. You were in the double cohort, right?



If you or your friend are willing to pay for university, at age 17/18, theoretically you won't have to listen to your parents anymore.

Then again, it's nice to graduate with no debt. Problem is then your parents have a say in where you go.

EDIT: I dunno if FSAE is at colleges, but it seems like a really good idea to do. RM and I visited U of T's team a few months ago, and talking to him about it, it seems like its a brotherhood. You can develop a lot of connections and get hands on experience in fabrication, as well as spend a lot of time on the design end of things. He and hellcat would know a lot more about than I would.

I've already said a few times that I can't go to University... I just can't get the Academic math. Physics math? I'm good to go. But every other math unrelated to what I wanna do drags my GPA down the gutter...

As far as FSAE goes... I'm not sure, but I'm sure theres SOMETHING at my college for it; and if there isnt, it only takes a few friends and a few grand to get into an amateur race and get experience yourself... Not ideal, but if it's all you got, then it's all you've got.

[Kitdy]

Bleh, well if you are willing to pay for college or university at that age I mean, you are free. Plus, you don't ever have to move back in if you work hard!