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Thread: Back in my own wheels. But which?

  1. #31
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    2011 Abarth 500.

    The most fun I had during the test drive was dodging traffic around Barcelona.

    And that's not a good thing.

    It all started in the underground car park of the dealer, where the little red scorpion was kept in a sort of small hangar. It looked the part and the saleswoman started it to get it out of where it was being kept (it was quite tight). I was sold. The car looked exciting and sounded the part from the outside. Then once out I was on my own, I could what I wanted with it for the next 30-45 minutes.

    The interior is nice, and altough it doesn't the highest quality materials in the world it is not bad. It also had some massive bucket seats which were excellent. The seating position is somewhat odd, though. You seat rather high up and with the gear lever quite high up as well and the steering wheels is one of those preposterous flat-bottomed affairs. It doesn't feel natural, but you get used to it. The inside rear view mirror is quite small, but the exterior ines are quite big and easy to use and overall visibility is good. Considering the size, the interior is quite big, especially in the front seats.

    I decided to go to Montjuic, which was the closest place with some corners and lighter traffic. To all of those which the name doesn't tell them anything, Montjuic is the mountain in Barcelona where the course for the fearsome race track used for the Spanish GP lays, and which was abandoned after a F1 car crashed into the public, killing several people, in 1975.

    And there the problems started. At first I thought I'd engage Sport mode. It doesn't make much of a difference, except that the stupid shift light which tells you to shift everytime you go past 1500rpm in normal mode goes away. I also tried disengaging the traction control and ESP but I couldn't find any buttons. In its place there was something called TTC, which doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

    At first I thought the steering was nice and weighty, but as you push on you actually discover it doesn't tell you what's happening between the wheels and the tarmac much. It's not very informative. The handling is mostly safe, little understeer but not too much lift off tail out malarkey. Unless you get really serious with the middle pedal. Then everything starts to become a bit frisky. The problem is that the transition between safe and delicate is quite abrupt - it doesn't seem to me like a particulalry composed or progressive car to me like a Mini or an MX-5. Ride is firm and a bit bouncy, but actually much more comfortable than I was expecting, maybe thanks in part to the great seats as well.

    The engine is much like the unit in the Delta. It's fine and smooth and quite fast considering it advertises 135bhp. If you forget the first 1500-2000rpm you make progress along nicely, and if you aren't careful with the loud pedal you can easily trouble the tyres in first and second. Speaking of which, it isn't particularly loud, this. Remember I said it sounded exciting from the outside? Well I couldn't hear anything from the inside. If anything, it sounds worse than the Delta, which is odd. But the worse thing of all, by far, is the gearbox. There's no other way of saying this, it's awful. The diagonal gear changes (2nd to 3rd and 5th to 4th) are just impossible to do quick. At one point I even found myself in 5th, rather than 3rd, effectively killing the car. If you take a bit more time to change gear everything can be smoothed out, but this a hot hatch not a family car. The clutch though is good, and rev-matching is easy as the engine is willing. It also has a much more improved and far smoother Hill Holder system.

    In the end though, what disappointed me most of all is the lack of drama. There's no sense of ocasion. Yes it looks the part, and the interior detailing is great. People look at you when you go past. And it's very loud from the outside. But somewhat it feels like you are providing the spectacle, not enjoying it with all the others. And that's utlimately what kills it. If every drive was an event, I could gloss over the stupid gearbox, the turbo lag, the dead steering, the supid flashing indicators everytime you go near the brake pedal,... But, in standard form at least, this simply doesn't happen.

    All in all, it feels more like a Panda GTI than a mini Ferrari. And that simply doesn't cut the mustard here.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  2. #32
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    Well that sounded depressing, Ferrer. A shame... the right looks, but no go. Carlo's machines were all ABOUT spectacle, the driver's engagement and of course, glorious sound. Inside and out. Besides the expected electronic nannies foisted on everything nowadays,
    do you know if the mounts for engine, suspension, etc. are the same as a standard 500? That is, designed compliantly to enhance ride?
    And is the gearbox direct linkage or cable?

    Anyway, what's next on your test list?
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

  3. #33
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    when you sell innocent people cars with drama, a dramatic number of people will end up in hospitals or worse. In the USA there will be a dramatci number of litigation cases....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    Anyway, what's next on your test list?
    Coming up next...

    2011 Renault Twingo RS Gordini Cup

    When I arrived in the dealer this morning (having only slept for about 3 hours, but that's besides the point...) I was in for a schock. There was the white little RS full of decals. It also turned out to be the car I'd be buying if I chose it. Unlike the Abarth, and once stripped of decals, the little Renault looks much more normal. The only real clue of the potential that lurks beneath are the 17 inch wheels serious low profile tyres. Inside it's even more normal. Except for orange seatbelts, there's little that differs from the lesser Twingos and it is quite basic. Driving position is better than the 500, but still not quite perfect, the steering wheel being quite inclined. Vsibility is excellent all round.

    Once on the move though, you discover why RS Renaults have such excellent reviews and fame. The steering has plenty of feel and nice weighting, you know exactly what the front wheels are doing. And speaking of the front wheels, they are very incisive with hardly any understeer at all. What's more lift-off oversteer is there, ready to be enjoyed. Just turn, lift, sideways, it's that easy. As a result it changes direction incredibly well, being a very agile car and grip is plentiful. ESP can't be disconnected unfortunately, but it does let the car go sideways before stoppping the fun. The trade off to all that handling prowess is that the ride is very firm, perhaps a bit harsh sometimes, but it bounces around quite a lot less than the little Abarth. Brakes are fine, but not spectacular.

    The drivetrain is also the completely opposite of the Fiat. Unlike the Abarth, the RS has a normally aspirated 1.6 litre engine with 133bhp and a 5 speed manual gearbox. What this means is a very linear response, and an engine that can be used from pretty much 1000rpm all the way to 7000rpm, even if ultimately it does feel slower than the 500. The gearbox, though is much better than the Abarth. 5th is perhaps a bit far off, but the other ratios are quite close making fast shifting very easy. The clutch is easily modulated as well and double de-clutching is also a piece of cake, should the mood take you.

    All in all, a very very serious driver's car that fits your pocket. In the right roads I cannot think of many cars that would be more fun than it.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    Well that sounded depressing, Ferrer. A shame... the right looks, but no go. Carlo's machines were all ABOUT spectacle, the driver's engagement and of course, glorious sound. Inside and out. Besides the expected electronic nannies foisted on everything nowadays,
    do you know if the mounts for engine, suspension, etc. are the same as a standard 500? That is, designed compliantly to enhance ride?
    And is the gearbox direct linkage or cable?
    I don't know the answers for certain, but I suspect it's little more than a normal 500 with a turbocharger and some stickers...
    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    when you sell innocent people cars with drama, a dramatic number of people will end up in hospitals or worse. In the USA there will be a dramatci number of litigation cases....
    Bah, you can get pretty killed in pretty much any car...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  6. #36
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    2011 Citroën DS3 HDi 110 Sport

    This isn't exactly that car I was looking for, I'm interested in the 155 THP version, but since the chasis was the same as well as the trim level I decided to go ahead and try it out anyway.

    First things first, I do not like the exterior look of the DS3 and getting to inspect one closely didn't change my idea. It's just too chintzy, too showy and there's simply too much chrome around. The car I'd be driving was wellow and black, just like Barcelona's taxis, which didn't help either. Thankfully the interior is much better. The seats are perfect, very comfortable and supportive without being as radical as the Abarth's. The materials used are of very high quality and ergonomics are quite good as well. Only minus point was the steering wheel which not only was flat-bottomed, but it didn't feel nice when you grabbed it.

    Out on the road though, you can't see the exterior so I was eager to see if the little Citroën could redeem itself. The first thing you notice is that those electric power steering systems simply can't replicate the feel of a good hydraulic system. It's not Delta-like catastrophically bad but sometimes you just have to believe that the wheels will do what you tell them to do. However, it is by far the most comfortable of the three cars I've tried out these days. It doesn't bounce around or is unsettled at all by bumps or creases on the road, it's very french if you know what I mean. This doesn't mean it's a boat, though. Bodyroll is controlled and the handling is moderately interesting, back hints itself in the corners if you lift, but it doesn't want to kill you. In that aspect it is much better than the Abarth, but not quite as raw as the Twingo RS (what is, this side of 20 grand?).

    For the test purposes I had to drive a diesel, so it wasn't of much use in this department. But anyway I'll explain that the engine is smooth and quite silent at low speeds, but it becomes a traditional diesel if you push. It also has this annoying feature common to all turborcharged engines, turbo lag. There's clear change in the oomph once you go past 1500-2000rpm. The stop-start system is howver excellent, very smooth when stopping and little be harsher when starting, but in any case much better than BMW's. The gearbox is good, a 6 speed manual, and it allows you to change very fast should the mood take you.

    All in all a very compelling proposition, an all rounder, even if you get the impresion that it's a bit style over substance, but I guess that in the right spec it could be a great little car.

    Anyway, all of this is actually pointless because yesterday it was ordered...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  7. #37
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    I got a question for you, and it seems fitting as you've been driving cars that you might buy(congrats on the purchase...). You mentioned the lackings of the electrically assisted power steering. Without having been able to compare hydraulic and electric system directly and back to back, and not having driven multiple brands' version, its hard for me to fully understand the differences. Since you have driven late model VW as well, how does say, Citroen's system compare to say, a VW system? The US magazine tend to say the EPS on VW/Audi's system seems to be the least disagreeable on the market....not having tried others' though, not sure what that means....
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    2011 Citroën DS3 HDi 110 Sport

    This isn't exactly that car I was looking for, I'm interested in the 155 THP version, but since the chasis was the same as well as the trim level I decided to go ahead and try it out anyway.

    First things first, I do not like the exterior look of the DS3 and getting to inspect one closely didn't change my idea. It's just too chintzy, too showy and there's simply too much chrome around. The car I'd be driving was wellow and black, just like Barcelona's taxis, which didn't help either. Thankfully the interior is much better. The seats are perfect, very comfortable and supportive without being as radical as the Abarth's. The materials used are of very high quality and ergonomics are quite good as well. Only minus point was the steering wheel which not only was flat-bottomed, but it didn't feel nice when you grabbed it.

    Out on the road though, you can't see the exterior so I was eager to see if the little Citroën could redeem itself. The first thing you notice is that those electric power steering systems simply can't replicate the feel of a good hydraulic system. It's not Delta-like catastrophically bad but sometimes you just have to believe that the wheels will do what you tell them to do. However, it is by far the most comfortable of the three cars I've tried out these days. It doesn't bounce around or is unsettled at all by bumps or creases on the road, it's very french if you know what I mean. This doesn't mean it's a boat, though. Bodyroll is controlled and the handling is moderately interesting, back hints itself in the corners if you lift, but it doesn't want to kill you. In that aspect it is much better than the Abarth, but not quite as raw as the Twingo RS (what is, this side of 20 grand?).

    For the test purposes I had to drive a diesel, so it wasn't of much use in this department. But anyway I'll explain that the engine is smooth and quite silent at low speeds, but it becomes a traditional diesel if you push. It also has this annoying feature common to all turborcharged engines, turbo lag. There's clear change in the oomph once you go past 1500-2000rpm. The stop-start system is howver excellent, very smooth when stopping and little be harsher when starting, but in any case much better than BMW's. The gearbox is good, a 6 speed manual, and it allows you to change very fast should the mood take you.

    All in all a very compelling proposition, an all rounder, even if you get the impresion that it's a bit style over substance, but I guess that in the right spec it could be a great little car.

    Anyway, all of this is actually pointless because yesterday it was ordered...
    So you brought a DS3. Nice.
    Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
    — Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    I got a question for you, and it seems fitting as you've been driving cars that you might buy(congrats on the purchase...). You mentioned the lackings of the electrically assisted power steering. Without having been able to compare hydraulic and electric system directly and back to back, and not having driven multiple brands' version, its hard for me to fully understand the differences. Since you have driven late model VW as well, how does say, Citroen's system compare to say, a VW system? The US magazine tend to say the EPS on VW/Audi's system seems to be the least disagreeable on the market....not having tried others' though, not sure what that means....
    Well, I think that worse system is the one fitted to FGA cars (Altough maybe Alfa's are better, and the Giulietta's is completely different affair or so have I read). It just simply doesn't tell you anything about the wheels.

    Hyundai's isn't bad in normal use and it could even be called somewhat informative, but sometimes (especially in long corners) you "run out" of feel and just have to believe that the grip and wheels are still there, which is not a nice feeling.

    Citroën's isn't bad either, but again despite the initial nice sensation as you drive along you notice that actually the steering is rather light and again not telling you much about what's actually happening. On the particular car I tried this feeling was also exacerbated by the silly steering wheel.

    VAG's is possibly the finest. It also has the right amount weight through the steering. I don't know but I get the feel that cars that were designed for high speed roads (i.e. German cars) are far more precise than all other cars, and that certainly translates to the steering.

    However, all of this is actually rather pointless if you compare them to the steering of a, say, Mini or (nevermind) an MX-5 or a 1 Series or Z4.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebrochureman View Post
    So you brought a DS3. Nice.
    Nope, I haven't.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  10. #40
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    The latter car you mentioned I think are also much less assisted also, probably has less need for power steering also...

    I've been in a Mini Cooper S being driven rather vigorously, and its amazing looking at the input vs the car motion, the steering looks incredibly fast and direct....not sure how well that'll be to live with from the interstate nature of of US(along with rest of that car) but certainly for fun driving it'll be a plus...
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  11. #41
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    Can't generalise on electric as the Mazda RX-8 is fantastic and gives great feel in race conditions allowing steer by throttle sensing when the fronts are washing out very easy.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  12. #42
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    RX-8 is on EPS also?
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  13. #43
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    yep, made by Showa it has the motor in the rack
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  14. #44
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    Was this since the car was debuted all those years ago, or a mid-model refresh? I know EPS has been around for a while, but not sure how far back it goes...
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Nope, I haven't.
    So what have you ordered?
    Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
    — Jeremy Clarkson

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