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Thread: Help LeonOfTheDead pick a University

  1. #1
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    Help LeonOfTheDead pick a University

    WARNING: VERY LONG POST, plz read carefully. cookies at the end

    So, I need some help from fellows all around the world.
    I moved from my place to Modena for educational reasons, since I was interested in the specialization in Automotive Engineering that is available only here and in Turin (regarding Italy itself). Here the University is split into two: the base degree (equivalent to a Bachelor's) is designed to last three years, after which you are a “First level Engineer”, or “Junior” as they call it.
    Basically you are useless, because you don't know enough theory, much less anything actually practical.

    After this first level degree you can stop studying and find a job, usually low payed and without many hopes to grow career-wise. You can also apply for the second part of University, the specialization, which is supposed to last two years. It would be slightly comparable to a Master's degree, in the sense that it is a “follow up”.


    I purposely said “supposed to”, because the system is like follows: (broken down into a bullet list for clarification)
    you follow a two-month long course for each subject (9 weeks of class)

    after the course, you have a 3-week-long exam session (that might span up to 4 weeks if there are any sort of holidays that might exist in this particular time of the year) .

    Two exam dates are set (pretty much randomly) for each subject you just followed. If things go wrong, you can try your luck when exam session rolls around again after other two months of lessons, but there will be just one date available.

    The point is, you can follow all the courses, without passing a single exam, so basically University can last for ages. I say this because I don't know how it is in other countries.

    Up to 6 or 7 years ago it used to be a single 5-years cycle, with 4-5 months of lessons and then two months of exams.

    With the present system I have to do 39 exams to obtain the first degree, and that's quite a busy schedule. Not only because you have to study a lot different subjects in the same time period, the main issues is actually find the time to do/try the exams, since overlapping dates are common, mind you, with just 3 weeks for scheduling two dates for about 4 or 5 exams.

    The point is, the italian university system is collapsing unto itself, and the new reform of the system (still facing approval) is nothing but bad news.
    Not only that, but Modena's university itself is a less than captivating place to be in. We are still waiting to going under the previous reform while for example the University of Padua, where I used to live, has implemented it last year.

    Regardless, my interest here is not to focus on the political issues surrounding the university. My main gripe is connected to the fact that this place is not the stimulating and intriguing place I would like to be in. I'm not expecting to chat with Mr Schumacher all day or BS like that. I am also unfazed by the sad little display with V10 engine from the F2001 Formula 1 car in front of the biggest class room. I believe it to be the sole reminder that we are smack in the middle of the so-called “Motor Valley”.


    Main issues are: (moar bullet points for your enjoyment)
    Teachers are old, uninformed on what's going on outside of the book they studied on 40 years ago, and just plain money-thirsty. They doesn't care about anything else but doing their job at the bare minimum.
    We don't have actual books to study on, because teachers don't base their explanations on them. They don't cover the entire subject at hand, either. Just what they think is “worth explaining”. This makes it impossible to go and buy a superbly written book and study on it, because if you are not versed in the exact language your professor has used and fail to repeat it at the oral exam, he will deem your answer as WRONG.
    Teachers do not write their own books or notes either (a select few take time out of their “incredibly busy” schedule to whip some scarce notes on the subject) for us to study on. The best we can do is obtain their badly made Powerpoint slides shown in class and print them out.
    There aren't any libraries or decent places to study in, for mainly two reasons: the ones available are too small and fill up extremely quickly, and the ones that are decently spacious are occupied by noisy Modenese students. No one, nor fellow students or library staff goes to the trouble of silencing them.
    There aren't places for foreign students to live in, the only option you have is renting an apartment/room with other students and it's freaking expensive (because owners know that you have no other alternatives). There are rooms for the “poorer” students, but the system is heavily corrupted and you can find students that are not exactly “poor” but find a way to have it written on an official statement. It is not strange to see tricked-out cars or say an Audi A3 parked outside of the student house.
    There aren't practical activities of any kind, no laboratories, and even no courses using computers. My experience with any kind of technical program is ZERO.
    I figured out they are looking just for students with a good ability in reading and memorizing, and not particularly capable of demonstrating that they have understood the concepts learned. In other words, parrots.

    I tried to talk with some of my teachers, but they seemed completely uninterested, they are just old farts that don't give a damn.
    The way the course itself is managed sucks. Students are not interested in understanding the subject, but solely in passing the exam and not looking back.

    We have three very difficult exams that are regarded as the “trinity of impossible-ness”. Not because of the difficult nature of the concepts, but because of the complete and utter disorganization of how the course is held/managed.
    The most difficult among these three is “Meccanica degli Azionamenti”, or in English “Actuation Mechanic Analysis” I suppose. That would be even an interesting subject, nothing very tough. The problem is they way it's held. The teacher (not going to say it's name) explains each arguments, for example the cam's mechanism, in the smaller details, he gives you enough notions to design (mathematically and without a calculator) a cam to create exactly the right motion of the valve you wanted (it's actually an exercise I have to do perfectly just to gain access to the oral exam).

    Now the whole thing can be interesting, but I assure that's a damn difficult and long process. And its almost pointless even!! The rest of the courses aren't NEARLY so specific as this, and there is no way a first level engineer will have the role of designing a cam, absolutely no way. That's just one of the issues this subject raises alone. This teacher doesn't follow any books (shocker), but does not hesitate to badmouth one of the most complete tomes on the subject in italian. It's either “inaccurate” or “scant”.

    On a final note, this exam is oral and last from 2:30 to 3:30 hours. It gives you 5 points out of 180 for the whole first level degree. Awesome.

    So what's the point of the thread? First part: giving proof I'm serious with it and that I'm not your everyday emo complaining about life going wrong and bad things bad people are doing to me for no reason.
    Second part: I need you to give me some advice about what I'm going to do after I will get the degree (hopefully in spring/summer). I don't want you to tell me what exactly I should do, but to be precise WHERE I might go, so here is my real question:


    Do you know of a good Automotive Engineering course at any University?


    I'm interested both in personal experiences or in what you know from friends.
    I could be interested in something in California as one of the options, since the GF is likely going to go back to the Bay Area after she will get her degree too, and if things will go on in this way, there are possibilities I would follow her. But if I find the right place (for me and my attitude) in say London, I could go there without hesitation as well. Maybe.

    PS: if you think this post is better written than what I usually write, it's just because I asked the GF's help for grammar checking.
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  2. #2
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    I beleive that one of the UCs (Universities of California) has a good automotive engineering program.
    Lemme check...
    EDIT: Unfprtunately the SAE website does not list any schools, but I shall keep looking.
    Last edited by f6fhellcat13; 12-05-2008 at 06:04 PM.
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  3. #3
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    A lot of schools in the midwest here (Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, etc) offer good automotive engineering programs. I would look into Central Michigan's program considering you're a stone's throw from the Motor City -- Detroit. (Sign up for the Princeton Review, it's a good help when it comes to stuff like this. Not sure if it's limited to the U.S. though.)
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  4. #4
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    MAybe this will help al little:
    Top 10 Automotive Colleges and Universities in the U.S.

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    I'd personally go to either of the California universities

  6. #6
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    From the Top 10 list I'd say one of the Michigan schools or Cornell. Remeber though, Cornell's an Ivy so you need near perfect scores and good rec's. But, if you got in, you could land any job you wanted.

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    Apparently University of Toronto does well in the Formula SAE usually, so that may be worth a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    Apparently University of Toronto does well in the Formula SAE usually, so that may be worth a look.
    U of T is ranked high internationally overall at least. Campus is nice, city is good. Worth a look I suppose. For engineering at least, they are highly respect in Canada and I would imagine probably world-wide. They have a course called engineering science in undergrad which is probably the hardest undergrad course in Canada. Coming form high-school, you need 90s in all the toughest courses available.

    Looking at it, U of T has no auto courses though so probably not your thing.

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    I read the whole thing and I have no cookie. WTF?
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  10. #10
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    leon, where is your passport from? italy or the united states?
    it was actually me who killed vasilli zaitsev, heinz thorwald, carlos hatchcock, and simo hayha

  11. #11
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    Coventry?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    I'd personally go to either of the California universities
    I kind of have to agree if you're wanting something reasonably close to bay area they are an awesome choice. I was considering UC Davis or Cal Poly San Louis Obispo, before deciding I wanted to get as far away from california as I could (but I'm a redneck, so you probably won't have that problem.) Davis has a lot more going on socially, from what I found. But San louis Obispo isn't far from the beach, a good car scene and has the added bonus of the cops in the area using a Lamborgini Diablo as a dare car (siezed from a drug dealer, of course.)

    Quote Originally Posted by LTSmash View Post
    From the Top 10 list I'd say one of the Michigan schools or Cornell. Remeber though, Cornell's an Ivy so you need near perfect scores and good rec's. But, if you got in, you could land any job you wanted.
    Yes, cornell would be great, but hard to get into (don't know if that's going to be a problem for you) and expensive as all hell. But if you want practical work on cars, they are great and have some fun projects for students to work on.
    Big cities suck

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    Leon, what makes you think that things are better/more interesting/less corrupt in other universities?

    Looking back at my university days, I had pretty much the same experience as you: teachers were old, classes were boring, the system was corrupt etc. So, after getting my Baccalaureate degree in civil engineering I started working as one. I understanded pretty quickly that I knew next to nothing about the subject and the REAL learning started. Which won't stop until I'll retire.

    So, my point is: don't be such a emo, face school with a stiff upper lip and get on with it. University will offer only a very basic education (no matter how fancy their degree is), the real act of gaining knowledge starts when you will start to work as an automotive engineer.

    If you want to change the environment, that's fine. Just don't expect better education elsewhere.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Leon, what makes you think that things are better/more interesting/less corrupt in other universities?

    Looking back at my university days, I had pretty much the same experience as you: teachers were old, classes were boring, the system was corrupt etc. So, after getting my Baccalaureate degree in civil engineering I started working as one. I understanded pretty quickly that I knew next to nothing about the subject and the REAL learning started. Which won't stop until I'll retire.

    So, my point is: don't be such a emo, face school with a stiff upper lip and get on with it. University will offer only a very basic education (no matter how fancy their degree is), the real act of gaining knowledge starts when you will start to work as an automotive engineer.

    If you want to change the environment, that's fine. Just don't expect better education elsewhere.
    I think that you are pretty much bang on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blingbling View Post
    leon, where is your passport from? italy or the united states?
    Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Leon, what makes you think that things are better/more interesting/less corrupt in other universities?

    Looking back at my university days, I had pretty much the same experience as you: teachers were old, classes were boring, the system was corrupt etc. So, after getting my Baccalaureate degree in civil engineering I started working as one. I understanded pretty quickly that I knew next to nothing about the subject and the REAL learning started. Which won't stop until I'll retire.

    So, my point is: don't be such a emo, face school with a stiff upper lip and get on with it. University will offer only a very basic education (no matter how fancy their degree is), the real act of gaining knowledge starts when you will start to work as an automotive engineer.

    If you want to change the environment, that's fine. Just don't expect better education elsewhere.
    I'm not saying that this is the be-all end-all, I just don't see the harm in asking if by any chance there is something better. It is not a rant.
    I guess that saying university sucks everywhere is more "emo" than actually trying to find a better place and not conforming. I don't think that saying "this is what you get, don't complain and go on no matter what" is the right attitude, especially, it can't help you find what is best for you or what can make your experience a little more enjoyable.

    Besides, I'm not complaining about the fact that university doesn't provide students with a right and suitable instruction, and that when you finally get your first job, you discover to be quite ignorant on the matter. This is not the point that I am arguing.

    the point is that the University of Modena in particular is a place that does not function period, not considering the interaction with jobs you can apply for once you have finished it.
    The courses aren't boring because of the nature of the subjects themselves, but because of the way they teach them to you, without any kind of passion, interest, or providing decent material to study on.
    I do not see anything wrong in not conforming, but if this is what can be called "emo", fair enough.

    another good thing about my University: in the specialization, there are two exams, perhaps the most important for an automotive engineer: vehicle dynamics, and vehicle mechanic analysis.
    they are held by the same teacher I talked about in the first post, so they are managed in the same way of that exams mentioned above, but with in an even more problematic way.
    Both exams are obligatory (about 3/4 of all exams are obligatory, then you have to choose electives among those proposed in order to reach the level of credits required).
    But every year only one of the two exams is held, both for the first and the second year of the specialization. the year after that, the other exam is held, respectively for the second and the first.

    this means that if you followed the first course, but you didn't understand a thing, you have to wait for two years before it is held again, in case you wanted to follow the class again. You have to stay there for three years, not two. The best part is that if you didn't understand the second subject, you are supposed to stay there until your fourth year.

    the possibility that you don't understand at least one part is very high: two hours of lesson, without a book or notes written by the professor, with notions you never heard before.
    for personal experience, if you miss a single lesson with that teacher, say because you feel sick, you are f***ed.

    this man is the reason why all the people that get their degrees in the first part don't choose the specialization in automotive engineering, but eventually the standard mechanical engineering specialization, as to avoid those two additional exams with him. Even if they moved here (like me) expressly to attend this specialization peculiar to this University.

    Only 3 or 4 people (out of 30 graduates) every year choose the automotive engineering specialization, mainly because of him.

    not that the world needs tons of automotive engineers, but the way they are chosen is not based on their intellectual capabilities in each subject, but out of pure endurance.



    btw, thanks to everyone for all the advice given up to now.
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