Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags

["Clevor" Angel]

Anyone here go to the F.A.S.T. or Pure Stock races? I've been going for 3 years and they just keep getting faster and faster. Recently there was a completely stock 1969 L88 (aluminum block 427ci/425hp engine) Corvette that went 10.97 @ 126.88 mph! ON SKINNY STOCK BIAS PLY TIRES! These cars have been running 12-11-LOW 11 seconds for years but their just now hitting the 10's. Now let me see a new Beamer sell for $6700 with 425 horsepower and turn 10 second ET's!!!

[kko]

If theyre completly stock hown do they get faster?
and 6700 dollars was more back then then it is today along with the fact the bwm's arent muscle cars so who cares.

[Matra et Alpine]

6700 in 69 is about $40K now so your close to M3 territory
The M5 aint' gonna make it - but there again it's a different tool for the job.
How about Japanese-spec Turbo MR2 ( mates son has acquired one ) We've been doing some 'work and testing'. 4.1s 0-60 and we both ran out of courage at 160mph
Not bad for £4000 today !!!

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

4.1s 0-60 and we both ran out of courage at 160mph
Not bad for £4000 today !!!

4.1! 160! bloody hell! did you run out of courage or road!

what motor's it running?

[KELSA]

i've actually been to some of the classic / vintage car racing, none modified (besides some with roller cage). it was great! its actually more fun than driving a s2000 on the track.

[johnnynumfiv]

How do they keep getting faster if they are stock?
My uncle runs a 1961 impala SS with a 540ci worked motor, drag slicks, and gets about 10 sec 1/4, I don't understand how a STOCK corvette with skinny tires can be in the 10's also.

[Niko_Fx]

Originally Posted by johnnynumfiv

How do they keep getting faster if they are stock?

I was wondering the same

[Rockefella]

Fleet500!?!?! Oh, nevermind. They're obviously doing something to these cars.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen

4.1! 160! bloody hell! did you run out of courage or road!

what motor's it running?

courage, it started getting skitterish. it woudl need some erious aeor work on the front end and underbody IMHO to push it out there - or just stupidity So it may happen one day )

3S-GTE 1998cc 16v DOHC JAPANESE spec whcih pushed 240-250 versus the US-spec turbo which was only 200hp.

This one has uprated hybrid from it's time in Japan - along with LOTS of other engine and suspension work .

He's not put it on the rolling road yet I'd conservatively put it in the 280-290 bhp possibly pushing 300 !!!!

[taz_rocks_miami]

Originally Posted by Niko_Fx

I was wondering the same

Ditto. Besides, BMWs aren't desinged to run the 1/4 mile. But they are desinged to run on the Autobahn at high speeds with no problem. Also, take em' to a twisty road a or a road racing track and you'll see what they are all about.

I love muscle cars but they are too one dementional for me...go fast in a straight line. European cars can go fast in a straight line also, plus corner and brake like nobodies business.

It's good to see you appreciate muscle cars Clevor, as you spend more time here, I hope you learn to appreciate non-American performance cars for what they are also...wonderfull driving machines.

["Clevor" Angel]

Its all in the setup, your allowed no aftermarket engine mods, no lightweight body panels, no wider tires, you can't take anything out and if you have any accessories they ALL must be hooked up. So how do they do it? Remember no AFTERMARKET modifications but luckily the Americans got it right the first time. Some of the things they do to run consistent 11's is over inflate the front tires, SLIGHTLY deflate the backs, make sure the STOCK exhaust system has pipes that fit into one another to reduce restriction, use worn out front springs so that the front end bounces up to get the weight transfer to the rear wheels, a spare tire and jack are recommended to be left in the trunk. All the power is there, its just that no one ever felt like tuning stock suspension. After all, they were made to drag race from the get go.

I'm not saying I don't like European cars, if I had my choice I'd be driving a TVR, the comparison with the beamer wasn't meant to bash Europeans in anyway. Your right, Europeans do go fast in a straight line but remember sooner or later over in Europe (Autobahn excluded of course) your going to run out of straight road. Europe has road racing, we have drag racing. (allthough road racing is much more fun to watch!) The simple fact is we have more room and more flat terrain, European roads tend to follow the terrain hence all the twists and bends. Don't know what it is but American racers don't seem to like turning, NASCAR and Drag Racing... (to quote Ron White) "p*****s."

[zilch1]

I came across this nonsense while surfing the net and simply had to respond:

First of all, an L-88 is NOT an aluminum block. The aluminum block 427 was the ZL1 and Chevy made a total of 2 production ZL1 Corvettes. They produced roughly 375 SAE NET HP as installed in the car (with engine accessories and the full factory exhaust system in place). I can prove that if required to do so. '02 - '04 Z06 Corvettes (LS6, 346 cids) are faster cars and the new LS7 Z06 (505 SAE NET HP in a 3,180 pound car) is a lot faster still.

Secondly, the ZL1 Corvette cost $6,700 in 1969, which was a lot of money then. 38 years of inflation have occurred since then, so it's ignorant to compare the price of a new BMW with that Corvette's 38 year old price.

Thirdly, cars running in the "pure stock drags" are allowed to use engines that have been MODIFIED per NHRA "stock" blueprinting specifications, which are very different than how the engines left the factories when new. The NHRA blueprinting specs permit large overbores (which add displacement and, perhaps more importantly, unshroud the valves), milled decks, milled cylinder heads, 3-angle valve jobs, thinner head gaskets, cheater cams (also known as "improved stock cams," which retain the stock lift and duration, but have much more aggressive ramping angles) and forged internals.

The mods don't stop there, either. In addition to the engine enhancement, these cars are allowed to run modern, mandrel bent exhaust system, ANY axle ratio, FULLY LOCKED DIFFERENTIALS, "shift improver kits" (on automatic cars) and various other performance enhancing devices.

Many of the faster cars running in those events are little more than purpose-built drag cars that were shrewdly built around the often loosely enforced rules.

Here's the actual link to the Pure Stock Drags. E-mail the POCs if you don't believe me.

http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/cstock.html

Even the more stringent "certified stock" allows a boat-load of engine modifications.

http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/cstock.html

"We will perform an NHRA-style inspection where the engine will be checked for proper castings, part numbers, etc. We will be using the NHRA tech bulletins for specifications only, including head cc's, deck height, bore, stroke, cam lift, etc. NHRA allows the use of superceded castings and part numbers, such as heads, which could give the car an advantage over using its original parts. WE WILL NOT ALLOW THIS! The PSMCDR™ rules still apply requiring all engine casting numbers to be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Again, we will be using the NHRA bulletins for various engine numbers (carb., intake, heads, etc), combustion chamber cc's, piston to deck clearance, proper piston configuration, lift at the valve, valve sizes, valve head configurations, valve job, cylinder bore, stroke, head gasket thickness, etc. You are allowed to blueprint your engine to these NHRA specifications only. No NHRA engine building tricks allowed. Just go to their website at http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/index.html to find the blueprint specs for your engine."

F.A.S.T rules permit far more modifications:

http://www.fastraces.org/members/fas...9!OpenDocument

These series do prove one thing, however: It wasn't the tires that were responsible for the relatively poor performance of the (truly) stock vehicles back in the day. Rather, it was the inefficient engines! "Old Muscle" is garbage by today's standards. Anyone who's ever driven a MODERN performance car (like my LS1 Camaro) knows that.

In the future, please research the facts before providing others with false and misleading information.

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

Anyone here go to the F.A.S.T. or Pure Stock races? I've been going for 3 years and they just keep getting faster and faster. Recently there was a completely stock 1969 L88 (aluminum block 427ci/425hp engine) Corvette that went 10.97 @ 126.88 mph! ON SKINNY STOCK BIAS PLY TIRES! These cars have been running 12-11-LOW 11 seconds for years but their just now hitting the 10's. Now let me see a new Beamer sell for $6700 with 425 horsepower and turn 10 second ET's!!!

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

Its all in the setup, your allowed no aftermarket engine mods, no lightweight body panels, no wider tires, you can't take anything out and if you have any accessories they ALL must be hooked up. So how do they do it? Remember no AFTERMARKET modifications but luckily the Americans got it right the first time. Some of the things they do to run consistent 11's is over inflate the front tires, SLIGHTLY deflate the backs, make sure the STOCK exhaust system has pipes that fit into one another to reduce restriction, use worn out front springs so that the front end bounces up to get the weight transfer to the rear wheels, a spare tire and jack are recommended to be left in the trunk. All the power is there, its just that no one ever felt like tuning stock suspension. After all, they were made to drag race from the get go.

I'm not saying I don't like European cars, if I had my choice I'd be driving a TVR, the comparison with the beamer wasn't meant to bash Europeans in anyway. Your right, Europeans do go fast in a straight line but remember sooner or later over in Europe (Autobahn excluded of course) your going to run out of straight road. Europe has road racing, we have drag racing. (allthough road racing is much more fun to watch!) The simple fact is we have more room and more flat terrain, European roads tend to follow the terrain hence all the twists and bends. Don't know what it is but American racers don't seem to like turning, NASCAR and Drag Racing... (to quote Ron White) "p*****s."

[RaceStudebakers]

Grrrrr...... I HATE a blowhard like this, so I had to respond too!

First of all, this nitwit picked the right name, couldn't have done better myself......

Second of all, the big "zilch" needs to take his own advice and "In the future, please research the facts before providing others with false and misleading information", quit spewing HIS nonsense AND lose the attitude!

Let me correct the big zilch's misc. ramblings.... (My corrections/comments in red)

Originally Posted by zilch1

I came across this nonsense while surfing the net and simply had to respond:

First of all, an L-88 is NOT an aluminum block. The aluminum block 427 was the ZL1 and Chevy made a total of 2 production ZL1 Corvettes. They produced roughly 375 NET HP as installed in the car (with engine accessories and the full factory exhaust system in place. I can prove that if requried to do so.

I believe you meant to say, “required”, so prove it! I KNOW you MUST have a stack of magazines with pictures somewhere, because it sounds like that's where you get informed.....

'02 - '04 Z06 Corvettes (LS6, 346 cids) are faster cars and the new LS7 Z06 is a lot faster still.

SO what! Who cares! That's not what this thread was about, try to focus zilch.....

Cars running in the "pure stock drags" are allowed to use engines that have been MODIFIED per NHRA "stock" blueprinting specifications, which are very different than how the engines left the factories when new.

I have a BIG flash for you big zilch, CARS CAME RIGHT FROM THE FACTORY WITH BLUEPRINTED ENGINES!!! Not ONLY were the R3 Studebakers TOTALLY blueprinted right from the factory, there WERE Ford, GM AND AMC cars sold that were blueprinted, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX! Just ask me, I was THERE when they were sitting in the dealerships!

The NHRA blueprinting specs permit large overbores (which add displacement and, perhaps more improtantly, unshroud the valves), milled decks, milled cylinder heads, 3-angle valve jobs, thinner head gaskets, cheater cams (also known as "improved stock cams," which retain the stock lift and duration, but have much more aggressive ramping angles) and forged internals.

This last statement is LOADED with BS...... The ONLY thing this blowhard, turnkey, bellybutton steering organism did right was give the PSMCD website links so anyone can see what the PSMCD considers "stock". It's true, you CAN punch out the engine, (as an owner could do when the car was new), you CAN blueprint the engine, (if it wasn't blueprinted from the factory), but you CANNOT do the rest of the stuff this nitwit claims. Ask me, I’VE BEEN THERE, I KNOW what the PSMCD will pass and what will NOT!

Blueprinting basically means that all of the internal engine tolerances are set EXACTLY, as perfectly as possible, to original factory specifications. It means that you are just trying to get the engine as close to perfection as it was designed, and we all know that mass produced machines are never perfect from the factory. Actual tolerances for what comes out of the factory vary greatly, even in the most modern machines.

The PSMCD specifically states that the block, heads and cam MUST BE STOCK, OR EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT WAS OFFERED BY THE FACTORY FOR THAT YEAR! Get it? You CAN use what ever performance parts that were available for your car from the factory for that year! If the zilch had ANY idea about what "blueprinting" is, he might have gotten a bit closer to fact......

The mods don't stop there, either. In addition to the engine enhancement, these cars are allowed to run modern, mandrel bent exhaust system, ANY axle ratio, FULLY LOCKED DIFFERENTIALS, "shift improver kits" (on automatic cars) and various other performance enhancing devices.

Oh for cryin' out loud...... What the hell does, "modern, mandrel bent exhaust systems" mean, or REALLY have anything to do with it? Yes, the exhaust system can have larger pipes, and less restrictive mufflers, SO WHAT! That's the SAME thing that could have been done by the owner when they were runnin’ on the street the year they were made! You CANNOT run "straight through" mufflers, (Cherry Bombs, gutted, etc,), the car must have a complete, factory style/routed baffled exhaust system.

"Any axle ratio", means ANY THAT WAS AVAILABLE FOR YOUR CAR FROM THE FACTORY WHEN IT WAS MADE! What's the problem with that? Locking and limited slip differentials WERE AVAILABLE FROM ALL CAR MAKERS WHEN THESE CARS WERE MADE!

Ya got me, "shift improver kits" ARE aftermarket parts, BUT, they are added as much for safety as for anything else! Ever see a slipping, overheated automatic transmission blow up? You CANNOT CHANGE A SINGLE THING IF IT'S A MANUAL SHIFT CAR. Sheesh.....

Many of the faster cars running in those events are little more than purpose-built drag cars that were shrewdly built around the often loosely enforced rules.

TOTAL AND COMPLETE BS! You wanna see the ET sheets for the last three years? Check the PSMCD website, if these were "shrewdly built", "purpose built drag cars", WHY ARE THEY RUNNING THOSE ET'S?!

We run Studebakers in the PSMCD, and TRUST ME, if we thought there was a cheater in the bunch, (and everybody who races the PSMCD feels the same way), we would be ALL OVER the car/driver! It’s called, “a protest”, and that means immediate tech inspection/tear down or banishment from the PSMCD, period. The PSMCD DOES spot checks, how come you didn't mention THAT zilchmeister? A good example, we wanted to change wheel covers on one of the Studebakers, we had to have them WEIGHED by the PSMCD before they could be used!

Here's the actual link to the Pure Stock Drags. E-mail the POCs if you don't believe in.

http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/cstock.html

PLEASE DO go to the PSMCD website and you'll see for yourself how strict the PSMCD IS, and how full-o-chitt the big zilch IS.

Even the more stringent "certified stock" allows a boat-load of engine modifications........

<SNIPPED> because of total and complete stupidity>


F.A.S.T rules permit far more modifications:

So what, we aren't talking about F.A.S.T. cars..... Whooooole different venue.....

These series do prove one thing, however: It wasn't the tires that were responsible for the relatively poor performance of the (truly) stock vehicles back in the day. Rather, it was the inefficient engines! "Old Muscle" is garbage by today's standards. Anyone who's ever driven a MODERN performance car (like my LS1 Camaro) knows that.

The big zilch's post does prove one thing, however; This know-it-all, wet-behind-the-ears, blow hard, turn-key-bellybutton wheel gripper has NEVER been to a PSMCD race, has NO idea WTF he's talking about and the ONLY information that he can parrot is something he heard from a grownup somewhere, who was ALSO misinformed.....

Talk about garbage, get your greasy butt out to the track zilch, with your, (and the bank's), L-whatever Camaro and we'll SEE some MODERN garbage get taken out....

In the future, please research the facts before providing others with false and misleading information.

In the future, before you use the yardstick that you use to measure yourself on others and call people cheats and liars, or call cars worth 10 times more than the one you and the bank own “garbage”, take your own advice, lose the attitude, sit down, shut up, research the facts, (or bring YOUR garbage out to race), but just plain stick to something you know about……

Oh, and use spell check, you zilch.....

Sonny
Webmaster/Admin
RacingStudebakers.Com

[zilch1]

Originally Posted by RaceStudebakers

Grrrrr...... I HATE a blowhard like this, so I had to respond too!....Let me correct the big zilch's misc. ramblings.... (My corrections/comments in red)

Sonny
Webmaster/Admin
RacingStudebakers.Com

Sonny,

Dan Jensen (contact information provided below) is an organizer of and a competitor in the "Pure Stock" drags. He's considered the guru on this subject in many circles and is a straight shooter. Here is Dan's 1971 455 HO T-37 Pontiac, which he races in the "Pure Stock" drags: http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ensen_t37.html

Anyone who opens the above link will see that Dan's "pure stock" 455 is actually a purpose-built 462. His 462 utilizes a custom ground Cam Motions cam (see details in next paragraph), a significantly-higher-than-stock compression ratio (9.4:1 vs. the factory's 8.4:1), forged Speed Pro pistons, forged Eagle rods, a modern, low restriction exhaust system and various carb. and ignition tweaks. Dan also degreed his cam differently than stock to better match his particular set-up. So modified, his engine requires 93 octane fuel. (The '71 455 HO ran fine on 87 octane when it left the factory.) Various other mods (e.g. after-market valve springs and push-rods) may also be present.

The original "068" '71 455 HO factory cam had a lift of .407" on both intake and exhaust and an LSA of 116 degrees. You'll see that Dan's cam has more lift and a significantly tighter LSA than the factory cam in the interest of making more power. His cam may also have wider flanks, although that's speculative on my part. (Wider than stock flanks can yield greater average valve lift while simultaneously permitting stock spec. maximum lift and duration. Such cams are therefore referred to as "improved stock" cams and are permitted in the "pure stock" drags.) http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages/cam_glossary.html

NHRA's definition of "stock" is defined by their tech bulletins and is very different than the auto manufacturer's definitions (and yours). I suggest you check the NHRA blueprinting specs - particularly the minimum allowable combustion chamber volumes. In most cases, NHRA's "stock" chamber volumes fall well below what's obtainable with factory production tolerances. (Smaller chambers yield more power via a higher compression ratio.) http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/index.html

"Pure stock" rules, which invoke the NHRA tech bulletins, allow the factory block and head castings to be machined (i.e. milled heads and decked/over-bored blocks) to those NHRA tech bulletin specs. The casting numbers must be "correct" for the car in question and no cylinder head porting/polishing is permitted. Thinner-than-stock head gaskets are also permitted in some cases. Some engines can gain up to two full points in actual mechanical compression ratio (vs.factory stock) when modified to their NHRA tech bulletins.

Even the more strictly regulated "certified stock" (a sub-group of "pure stock") permits blueprinting to the same NHRA specs:http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/cstock.html

Modifications such as those discussed above (plus others, including 3 angle valve jobs) are common among the more competitive cars racing in the "pure stock drags." That explains why many of those cars today are so much faster than when they rolled off their production lines 35+ years ago.

Those are the facts, regardless of how ambiguously worded the "pure stock drag" rules might be. The fact that you're the "webmaster/admin." for a website devoted to ancient relics that virtually no-one cares about won't change those facts.

E-mail Dan and ask him if you require verification of my claims. Here is his contact information:
http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/contact.html

["Clevor" Angel]

Pretty funny, He actually seems angry over my post! I'm pretty sure about the L88 being an aluminium block, the L89 was the aluminium headed 427 BUT I always get them confused so don't quote me. ZL1's were ALL aluminium 427's though, not just aluminium blocks.