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Old 01-09-2006, 02:26 PM
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What do you think?

With the recent discovery (on my part) of a few new technologies I have decided that I will be making a prototype with a few of them changed with a few adjustments and changes from my own ideas.

My very basic idea is that the motor will be a 1000cc displacement inline 4.
crankshaft will be replaced by counter rotating cams ala REVETEC but they will have only 2 lobes 180 degrees from each other and there is a lip added to the high points to keep the piston from going to high.
it will run on basic 2 stroke diesel mode with ports in the cylinder wall for intake and 2 coates rotary valves for exaust at the top. I plan to make it a short stroke and wide bore dimensions. I want to make it a 4 throw system. direct injection by a constant pressure mechanical system. I hope that this combination will give me a high reving (6-7000 RPM) diesel motor with healthy HP ratings. For intake I hope to use a small turbo for lag free pickup from idle and then switch to a larger turbo after 3800RPM all the way to redline!!!

I am just wondering what you guys think and if anyone has some helpfull tips or ideas.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:11 PM
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It's been done.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleekeywoowoo
It's been done.
what has been done???

are you reffering to a single technology or the whole package?

cause I havenot seen anything like this built!
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Old 01-09-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hightower99
what has been done???

are you reffering to a single technology or the whole package?

cause I havenot seen anything like this built!
Nothing, I just felt like bringing you down. You know how it is, somebody has a great idea goes into great detail for the longest time and than gets shot down by .. 'It's been done'

My apologies,
-Sleekeywoowoo
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Old 01-09-2006, 06:19 PM
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I'm not up on REVETEC, how exactly do you do away with the crankshaft. I know electronically actuated valves are in the works but what can manage the forces a crankshaft handles? Please explain.
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Old 01-09-2006, 08:03 PM
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i think what you think!!!!!!!!! go for it!
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfAdv
I'm not up on REVETEC, how exactly do you do away with the crankshaft. I know electronically actuated valves are in the works but what can manage the forces a crankshaft handles? Please explain.
well instead of a solid crankshaft that rotates this motor will have 2 counter rotating cams (just like normal camshafts in a car) and the piston will ride on the cams with a ballbearing roller. However there will be 2 lobes or highpoints instead of one and this will allow the motor to fire each cylinder twice every revolution in 2 stroke diesel mode. I want to make it into a 4 throw system which means that each cylinder fires at a different point in the revolution meaning that there will always be one cylinder firing and that there will be 8 power pulses per revolution. These ideas should make for an incredibly smooth high RPM system (6-7000RPM) I am planning on over 200HP at redline with 12lbs of boost. I also hope to run a good 20:1 or higher compression ratio.

thanks for the support guys

but I would still like some ideas or suggestions maybe some constructive critiscism?
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Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
Engine torque is an illusion.
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleekeywoowoo
Nothing, I just felt like bringing you down. You know how it is, somebody has a great idea goes into great detail for the longest time and than gets shot down by .. 'It's been done'

My apologies,
-Sleekeywoowoo
not really any need to apologise because in your own funny way I can see that as a compliment!
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Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
Engine torque is an illusion.
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:56 AM
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Like the sound of your plans
One thing, you may need something other than the turbo to scavenge the engine. Ive never looked at 2-stroke diesels in any great depth, but all the ones Ive seen use a crankshaft driven blower. As I understand it, the exhaust valve is opened relatively early, so the escaping exhaust should be able to drive the turbo, which is fine when the engine is running. However, you might have problems actually starting it Maybe have an electric assist on your small turbo?

What engine are you basing it on or are you starting from scratch? Love to see pics once you start
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:23 AM
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I am starting pretty much from scratch on this engine and I am not going to base it off any working ones as most of the 2 stroke diesels in the world are enormus ship motors.

I will probably post pictures when I get started but it will be a while before I get my hands on the metal and start cutting... got to plan everything first!!!

I thought about using a turbo system for scavenging and it will do just fine! due mostly to the fact that I will run a dual turbo system and that this motor makes amzing amounts of exaust!!!
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Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
Engine torque is an illusion.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hightower99
I am starting pretty much from scratch on this engine and I am not going to base it off any working ones as most of the 2 stroke diesels in the world are enormus ship motors.
turbo charged behemoths, running at 90 rev per minute and producing somewhere between 7000-8000 BHP per cylinder. (that would not fit in a Honda Civic)

Anyway, being not technical enough to fully understand your design (advantages) I am wondering why you would like to combine diesel power with high revs, because the current attractiveness of diesels lies in the low end torque. Is this design supposed to keep that characteristic, but combined with a much wider power band? What what be the shape of both the power and the torque curves?
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4
turbo charged behemoths, running at 90 rev per minute and producing somewhere between 7000-8000 BHP per cylinder. (that would not fit in a Honda Civic)

Anyway, being not technical enough to fully understand your design (advantages) I am wondering why you would like to combine diesel power with high revs, because the current attractiveness of diesels lies in the low end torque. Is this design supposed to keep that characteristic, but combined with a much wider power band? What what be the shape of both the power and the torque curves?
I hope you realise that I am going to build a 1 litre inline 4...

anyways I am glad that somebody asked that question (about the powerbands)

First I would like to say that diesel are not attractive because of there low rev power they are attractive because the make the most power! (I will explain)

first horsepower (the power that moves anything) is torque X the RPM now this means that if you made an engine that made 100ft.lbs. of torque through the entire speed(RPM) range then it would make progressively more HP as the revs rise. If you measure torque in ft.lbs and power in HP then they should be the same number at 5252 RPM. now the more torque the motor makes the more HP it will make for a given speed and if you think of diesel engines and the fact that they make so much more torque then gas engines then all they need to do is rev faster to make those high peak HP numbers!!!

there are a few limits on the speed of diesel engines the biggest is the fact that diesel fuel burns slowly (low flame front speed) and because diesels are designed with long strokes (to help get the high compression ratios) that means that piston speed will quickly approche flame speed. Because everyone who makes diesels knows this they optimize the design for low speed operation.

I want to make an engine that will have the great low speed torque of a diesel but have the capability to rev to 7000 RPM or more!!!

SHORT ANSWER:the torque curve will start high due to optimized timing and the special crank system and it will just continue to raise topping out much later than on any other motors (due to the fact that I will have variable timing and supersonic velocity in the intake and exaust)around redline 7000 rpm. I hope to get a superlow idle speed (around 300rpm which is good for a 1L 4 banger!) which means HP will start low but will raise very quickly and the HP should top out at around redline 7000rpm. The plan is to make a motor that is useable from idle to redline!

my friend ran the info through a simple simulator and in a perfect world this system should make 350HP and 400ft.lbs. of torque at 7000rpm and even at idle there should be atleast 60% of that!!! (of course that is only in a perfect world! )
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Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
Engine torque is an illusion.
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2006, 05:11 AM
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This sounds OK, just wondering why you are worried about piston speeds in a 1 litre 4 pot. If I remember correctly piston speeds around 18-20 meter/sec start to become critical, and I think with the given dimensions you would get nowhere near to that. You say you are going to use a mechanical injection system. What pressures would that be capable of? Will it be a common rail system?
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Old 01-11-2006, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4
This sounds OK, just wondering why you are worried about piston speeds in a 1 litre 4 pot. If I remember correctly piston speeds around 18-20 meter/sec start to become critical, and I think with the given dimensions you would get nowhere near to that. You say you are going to use a mechanical injection system. What pressures would that be capable of? Will it be a common rail system?
if i made my engine like a normal diesel then it would not rev to 7000rpm the normal bore:stroke ratio for a diesel is around 2:1 or more in a 1L engine the stroke should be about 12cm (5.15cm bore) and at 7000rpm the piston speed would be about 28 meters/sec my engine will have a 4.5cm stroke (8.4cm bore) but the piston will go up and down twice every revolution for a "normal" effective stroke of 9cm this will lower piston speed at 7000rpm to around 21meters/sec (speeds are critical at 25m/s) I could make the stroke about 5.35cm on my engine before I hit 25m/s!!! so i might make a 1.185L engine!!!
for injection this engine needs about 3000psi on the fuel but I think I can get my hands on a pump that will do 5500psi and flow roughly twice as much fuel! it will be a simple common rail system yes.
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Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
Engine torque is an illusion.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2006, 09:17 AM
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I think you should check on the specs of modern small diesels, yes, they are long stroke, but for instance PSA'a 1.4 Hdi has 7.7 bore and 8.4 cm stroke, and not the 12 you assume for a one litre......
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