Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

[Sauc3]

Lockheed F-22A Raptor #14

["Clevor" Angel]

Pretty much the best menuevering plane out there with its ability to change the direction of its thrust. (Thrust vectoring) The body has a Diamond shape to it much like the F117 stealth fighter, but the F22 actually has a smaller radar cross hatch. The F117 was quoted as having a radar cross the size of a small bird, the F22 is about the size of a bumble bee on radar. If in a dogfight, this is the plane to have. It can out menuever, out speed, and out stealth just about any other fighter aircraft the world has to offer. Its payload capacity is less than desirable but Lockheed Martin and the US decided that the F22 would better suit the governments wants if the weapons were hidden inside the plane, decreasing its radar cross. This plane is basically the Ninja of the USAF, its quick, efficient, agile, extremely lethal and can disappear from sight quickly.

[d-quik]

its not the just one of the best, it is the best fighter ever, period. best. unstoppable. it replaced an "unstoppable" plane. what...

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

Pretty much the best menuevering plane out there with its ability to change the direction of its thrust.

no, russian planes will and probably always will be better maneuvering than it's american counter-parts. the mig 1.44 (not made) will likely outmaneuver it, as will probably the sukhoi berkut.

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

If in a dogfight, this is the plane to have. It can out menuever, out speed, and out stealth just about any other fighter aircraft the world has to offer.

speed and stealth do not matter in dogfights. the raptor was made to avoid dogfights, while the sukhoi berkut has more emphasis on dogfighting. the choice is obvious here for close range combat. i don't know how you think this is the plane to have in dogfights. makes no sense. a lot of planes have vectored thrusts

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

efficient

not economically...

[Vindesh17]

this thing looks sexy

[d-quik]

its so.... disgustingly unstoppable

[KonaGreen]

I love the F-22. It's such a sexy jet, and it is undoubtedly, one of the best Fighter jets out there. In a Missile/BVR fight, yes the Raptor would be triumphant, but in a dogfight I think that the SU-30 series would give it a righteous fight, and stuff it's jacksey full of lead. Watch this vid to see just how manouverable the Flanker is. I'd hate to have to fight this plane, you watch this clip and you'll realize that in a furball, there would far too many ways to get killed.
http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=2738

["Clevor" Angel]

Originally Posted by d-quik

its not the just one of the best, it is the best fighter ever, period. best. unstoppable. it replaced an "unstoppable" plane. what...no, russian planes will and probably always will be better maneuvering than it's american counter-parts. the mig 1.44 (not made) will likely outmaneuver it, as will probably the sukhoi berkut.speed and stealth do not matter in dogfights. the raptor was made to avoid dogfights, while the sukhoi berkut has more emphasis on dogfighting. the choice is obvious here for close range combat. i don't know how you think this is the plane to have in dogfights. makes no sense. a lot of planes have vectored thrusts
not economically...

The F22 is the best menuevering plane out there, future planes don't count as there not in production yet and their stats may be exaggerated.

The F22 was made to avoid dogfights but was designed to kick ass if the pilot ever found himself in one. It is faster and more agile than other planes, yes even current Mig's. Its designed as an Air to Air and Air to Ground plane.

No its not economical, I meant efficient at doing its job.

[ruim20]

Sukhois RULE!

[fa22_raptor]

This plane's so good I used it as my username. End of story.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

The F22 is the best menuevering plane out there, future planes don't count as there not in production yet and their stats may be exaggerated.

Wrong.

The F22 was made to avoid dogfights but was designed to kick ass if the pilot ever found himself in one. It is faster and more agile than other planes, yes even current Mig's. Its designed as an Air to Air and Air to Ground plane.

Wrong

No its not economical, I meant efficient at doing its job.

Debatable. With THAT amount of per unit cost WILL the US forces deploy it in anythign except for a guaranteed "no-loss|" situation ? Like GW1, teh Jaguars were used in their low level ground attack role to attack certain targets as they were too well protected to afford to send in F-117s

["Clevor" Angel]

Matra, its just so hard for you to accept anything not European as being good isn't it. Do we have to start this again?

F-117s have been used in every American war since its introduction in 1989.

EDIT: btw matra, the F-22 is an Air-to-Air/Air-to-Ground plane, is one of a handfull of planes that can supercruise. I argue top speeds but the F-22's is classified. The F-22 is also a stealth aircraft, its made to gain air superiority by taking out SAM sites and radar. The MIG is an all out fighter, to my knowledge the MIG 29 doesn't have much air to ground capability yet. And again, the F-22 is not designed as a dogfighter but if it is involved in one, it will more than likely be able to out meneuver the other planes. And yes the Su-37 would give it quite a run for its money in a dogfight b/c the SU-37 has thrust vectoring also.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel

Matra, its just so hard for you to accept anything not European as being good isn't it. Do we have to start this again?

NO what we're seeing again is poor comments without ANY research about them

The F-22 is designed for a purpose a purpose which makes it's WEAKEST part close-in dog fighting. Those are FACTS and it you would research your opinion you would have known.

And to then DEFEND that unreserved opinion with BS about not accepting non-European crap is unworthy of further comment.

F-117s have been used in every American war since its introduction in 1989.

Never said they didn't. BUT they were and ARE very selective about their usage. The F-14/15/16 still carry the brunt of the toe-to-toe delivery of munitions for the USAF.

EDIT: btw matra, the F-22 is an Air-to-Air/Air-to-Ground plane, is one of a handfull of planes that can supercruise. I argue top speeds but the F-22's is classified. The F-22 is also a stealth aircraft, its made to gain air superiority by taking out SAM sites and radar. The MIG is an all out fighter, to my knowledge the MIG 29 doesn't have much air to ground capability yet. And again, the F-22 is not designed as a dogfighter but if it is involved in one, it will more than likely be able to out meneuver the other planes. And yes the Su-37 would give it quite a run for its money in a dogfight b/c the SU-37 has thrust vectoring also.

"more than likely" -- see you're making stuff up now.

As stated above, this isn't a debate and not even worthy of the title discussion. Every point you just made can be torn to shreds If you care to do some research I'll gladly then compare the relative strengths and weakness of the F-22, JSF, Rafale, Eureofighter, Grippen and the Russian alternatives

PS: read my sig There's aquote from a "non European" lurkign in there - actually TWO

and to help you "move on" .... I had already given you a definitive link on Gen Jumper's flight in teh Eurofighter - an F-22 flyer. Let me give you one of the quotes from him .... "The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."

The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.

"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise,"
Now *IF* the F22 was more maneuvrable he'd have said.
The fact is that all modern fighter planes are at the limits of the pilot retaining their balance and sense of the scene. They can all out-fly what the pilot can cope with. NONE of them are any order of magnitude better than the other - yet ( JSF is likely to put another ball on the table just as the Harrier did )

["Clevor" Angel]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

NO what we're seeing again is poor comments without ANY research about them

The F-22 is designed for a purpose a purpose which makes it's WEAKEST part close-in dog fighting. Those are FACTS and it you would research your opinion you would have known.

And to then DEFEND that unreserved opinion with BS about not accepting non-European crap is unworthy of further comment.


Never said they didn't. BUT they were and ARE very selective about their usage. The F-14/15/16 still carry the brunt of the toe-to-toe delivery of munitions for the USAF.


"more than likely" -- see you're making stuff up now.

As stated above, this isn't a debate and not even worthy of the title discussion. Every point you just made can be torn to shreds If you care to do some research I'll gladly then compare the relative strengths and weakness of the F-22, JSF, Rafale, Eureofighter, Grippen and the Russian alternatives

PS: read my sig There's aquote from a "non European" lurkign in there - actually TWO

and to help you "move on" .... I had already given you a definitive link on Gen Jumper's flight in teh Eurofighter - an F-22 flyer. Let me give you one of the quotes from him .... "The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."

The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.

"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise,"
Now *IF* the F22 was more maneuvrable he'd have said.
The fact is that all modern fighter planes are at the limits of the pilot retaining their balance and sense of the scene. They can all out-fly what the pilot can cope with. NONE of them are any order of magnitude better than the other - yet ( JSF is likely to put another ball on the table just as the Harrier did )

Everytime someone decides to talk up an american car/plane/whatever you have to come in and tell everyone how wonderful everything European is. You back my statement by refusing to answer.

I said it can "most likely" out meneuver any opponent b/c I was leaving room for planes either in design right now, ones I forgot, or one I don't even know about.

I read the entire link when you gave it btw and my original statement in this thread was just that. Here is a summation of what Gen. Jumper said:

This plane (F22) is basically the Ninja of the USAF, its quick, efficient(as in doing its designated job), agile, extremely lethal and can disappear from sight quickly.

Now your bringing in the JSF, or F-35a, b, and c aren't you? If I recall Great Britain and France are possible buyers.

I never stated the F-22 was substantially better, yes I said it was basically the best meneuvering plane out there and its TRUE, its thrust vectoring abilities are not exactly abound on fighter aircraft. The Su-37, Su-30MK1 and an upcoming version MIG 29 NOT YET IN PRODUCTION are pretty much the only fighters using Thrust Vectoring systems.

Now onto the dogfighting issue again.
NO it wasn't designed as a dogfighter nor was it intended to fall into such a situation.
YES Lockheed Martin designed the plane to be extremely agile and see the enemy before its spotted so as to evade them rather than confront them.

[johnnynumfiv]

Interesting.

[clutch-monkey]

as far as i know, stealth = hard to maneuver
so anything incorporating stealth has to compromise some maneuvering capability, which is why the F-117 is like a flying brick.
but i could be wrong