Water Welding and Hybrid

[mclaren_crazy]

This guys invention could legitimatly change the automitive world

http://www.dpccars.com/car-movies/05...aterasfuel.htm

[Pando]

Is this for real? Is it energy efficient to turn water into HHO? Or possibly energy efficient? Can this work on a larger scale? Drawbacks? Huge fuel canisters?

[hightower99]

That certainly works for welding because he is just burning HHO gass. But you can not power a car with unchanged water. The energy used to change it into HHO gass is the same energy you get out by burning it. So nothing new.

[matek]

this is repost it was in the energy saving competion and its a bad idea seeing as some countres are starting to contemplate importing water as the levels are dropping.

Desalinisation plants would have to build which would cost into high hundreds of millions.

But i still think its a god idea although expensive, who know the future might forget the cost or find another way of retreving super clear water.

[h00t_h00t]

It would stop a country from relying on another for water though.

[Egg Nog]

This is very misleading - I hope nobody honestly think's that you can directly use water as a fuel. It takes loads of electrical energy to electrolyse the water into HHO (sometimes called "Brown's gas"), which is then useful for something like welding. Even that part isn't really an innovation - Brown's gas welding technology has been around for decades...

With the automotive application, it is used to add a little bit of efficiency, but it is by no means "running on water". Sorry folks

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Originally Posted by hightower99

That certainly works for welding because he is just burning HHO gass. But you can not power a car with unchanged water. The energy used to change it into HHO gass is the same energy you get out by burning it. So nothing new.

that's both true and untrue at the same time
yes you need energy to chagne water into the HHO (anyone know what this is btw ?? ive never heard of it n i dont take chem), and it is going to be more then the energy you get out of burning it

same problem as hydrogen fuel cell cars, the thing is the main problem today is with CO2 emissions coming from vehicles and other forms of burning fossil fuels, you can use other alternative fuels to power the electrolysis process which chagnes water to HHO or for "regular" hydrogen fuel cells, the reason you do this is because it's unfeasible (and dangerous) to fit solar panels or wind turbines or a nuclear reactor onto a car, by using HHO and regular hydrogen fuel cells you can cut fossil fuels

the problem with hydrogen fuel cells is the cells themselves are bulky, if they can make this HHO gas more user friendly (in the form of less bulky storage units) then we could see this technology in showroom cars in the near future

[spi-ti-tout]

Originally Posted by KnifeEdge_2K1

anyone know what this is btw ?? ive never heard of it n i dont take chem

I don't know if it's here but good luck finding it.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by spi-ti-tout

I don't know if it's here but good luck finding it.

erm it's H (Hydrogen) H (Hydrogen) and O (Oxygen).
Using electroysis you break the bonds of water (H2O) and get the free gasses.
It's NOT a single molecule, but three seperate ones ( actually more accurately it'll be H2 and O as the Hydrogen will re-bond failry quickly.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

erm it's H (Hydrogen) H (Hydrogen) and O (Oxygen).
Using electroysis you break the bonds of water (H2O) and get the free gasses.
It's NOT a single molecule, but three seperate ones ( actually more accurately it'll be H2 and O as the Hydrogen will re-bond failry quickly.

so wuts the difference between this and regular hydrogen fuel cells

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by KnifeEdge_2K1

so wuts the difference between this and regular hydrogen fuel cells

Fuel cells combine hydrogen and Oxygen to create water (H2O) this process releases energy that can be used to power things.

The process to create HHO (or Brown's gas) is the total opposite. energy from an external source is used to break the bonds in water (H20) and you get H2 and O out. You can then burn these gases but you can never ever make any more energy then you put in (from the external source). So if you tried running a car on this system where the external source of energy is supposed to be taken from the resulting energy of the burning gas. Then you have nothing left to move the car. In fact if you could get the thing to start it would idle for a little bit then die. If you tried to move the car it would die too. You cannot get more energy out of water than you put into it and therefore you cannot use it as a fuel. Simple laws of thermodynamics stop this.

My previous post was totally correct. Fuel cells do not suffer from trying to break any laws of thermodynamics at all. Using fuel cells requires no fossil fuels at all anyways. so no problem there either. Fuel cells are not bulky at all the main problem with fuel cell technology is Hydrogen storage.

[matek]

How much elecricity do you need to carry out this process in the car?

Because theoretically it should be loads therefore redering this useless as to get the reaction to ocur you still need to burn the fossil fuels to get it. and in cars im not 100% sure but could you use the altenator to provide the elecricity needed for the engine to work??? Even so i highly doubt it.

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by matek

How much elecricity do you need to carry out this process in the car?

Because theoretically it should be loads therefore redering this useless as to get the reaction to ocur you still need to burn the fossil fuels to get it. and in cars im not 100% sure but could you use the altenator to provide the elecricity needed for the engine to work??? Even so i highly doubt it.

Umm You are sort of missing the point.

It doesn't matter how much power you need to break the bonds all you need to know to make this system impossible is the fact that it goes against the second law of thermodynamics.

Think about it. If you had left over energy to use the car (i.e. move it around) then you could use the exhaust which would be pure steam again as fuel. Leading this to be a perpetual motion machine and we all know that isn't possible.

[matek]

No the reaction is only only slightly more efficient, loads of energy is still lost due to heat etc etc.

And the fact that water isnt an endless supply when only one percent of the worlds water is usable by us.

Ignoring the fact that the reaction is complex and it obviously works, how would you get perpetual motion? you still loose lots of energy in many forms this sorce is just slightly more efficient.

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by matek

No the reaction is only only slightly more efficient, loads of energy is still lost due to heat etc etc.

And the fact that water isnt an endless supply when only one percent of the worlds water is usable by us.

Ignoring the fact that the reaction is complex and it obviously works, how would you get perpetual motion? you still loose lots of energy in many forms this sorce is just slightly more efficient.

I am confused what "reaction are you talking about and what is it slightly more efficient then?

You seem to know very little about water. Water is by definition a reuseable element, why and how you might ask well because water is highly stable and requires massive amounts of energy to split it. and then when you burn the gasses you get water again. It is incredibly difficult to actually destroy water. So far there is no easy or fast way of destroying it and therefore is considered endless. Only about 3% of the natural water on the earth is fresh water and easily useable by us, but that doesn't mean we can't use sea water. In fact we do use it all the guys getting sea salt are infact distilling water into the atmosphere that will rain down on a mountain somewhere (relatively) pure. If you start with 1 liter of water and split it and burn it again to make water, it is not difficult to have 1 liter left after the whole process. Water is not a fuel and is not used so much as recycled.

Your last comment in the quoted post is really confusing
I said that if it worked in a car it would be a possible system for perpetual motion and that is not allowed.