"What's this car?" Official Thread

[nota]

Originally Posted by henk4

QUOTE: The Roadmaster name appeared in red-filled script on a chrome button within the bumper guard crossbars, front and rear. UNQUOTE...

So can we see those red letters?

I can't (no binoculars) and can only make out a smudge of red on the lower crossbar. Buick often used this colour to adorn their chrome details

Judging by a comparive wb estimation I still reckon its a '47 Super

(btw thats a great bit of precise ID info there Henk!)

[Ferrer]

What an interesting car history.

[nota]

Originally Posted by henk4

So one out of 19...Has it survived somewhere?

Unknown . In the pic it bears 1969-issue rego plates. One of the local Buick clubs might have become aware of it; I was a member of one 20 years ago and did ask, but it didn't ring a bell with the guy I spoke to back then

On the subject of vintage Buicks, Henk, you and others might enjoy the terrific online content of one of our Buick clubs

Buick Car Club of Australia Inc. in N.S.W. - Home Page

Try 'Road Tests' and especially 'Buick Stories' within the menu. Some of these stories are amazing, or simply endearing like this one

1919 - An Eight Year Old Driver of a Buick

Article reprinted from “The Buick Bulletin of Australasia” April 1921



The subject of our photograph is Mr. Mullet's son, Irvine, who can handle the Buick Six with confidence. He learnt to drive at the age of seven, and is now a little over eight. He drives from Monduran Station to Bundaberg, a distance of over 40 miles, over some very difficult roads and hills, which include the Bullyard [mountain] Range. He is quite an expert driver over country roads, and understands how to handle the car on any steep grade. This speaks volumes for the simplicity of the Buick and the easy gear changes, He recently drove to Gin Gin by himself, struck a big sand patch, put on the chain, and got through with flying colors. Although he is not very big, he is quite strong for his age, and is an expert swimmer, a good gun and rifle shot, and a fine rider.

They built 'em tough in those days, and the cars as well.

Some of the tales of Outback travel simply defy our modern-day 4X4 heros and heroics

Speaking of tough, another Story: "1916 - 261,800 Miles in a Buick without renewing the bearings"

And in case you miss it, also from 1916 this pic for the Orange

[Ferrer]

Now, you see you should come to UCP more often.

[henk4]

That's a nice story, "repairing the gearbox with some iron wire" and then get it fully repaired without charge....No punctures (mentioned???)
Anyway, if we are on the subject of Buicks, what's this, I don't have pre-war documentation

Off topic slightly, but I remember my brother had a model of a 1940-50 Buick, in creme, with a wind-up motor, steerable wheels, and little red pins as indicators that worked on the turning of the wheels. What's left of it is the key, in the shape of a policeman, with one arm sideways. No idea of the maker, could be Schuco, but not sure.

[nota]

Originally Posted by henk4

That's a nice story, "repairing the gearbox with some iron wire" and then get it fully repaired without charge....No punctures (mentioned???)

You could bet there were plenty! That area is harsh and remote even today. Ty for having a look. Some of the ancient road tests are fun reading too

Anyway, if we are on the subject of Buicks, what's this, I don't have pre-war documentation

Allow me .. front fender detailing says 1923 .. oval rear window denotes 4cyl for that year .. voila! .. its the Model 23-35 Touring

Weight 2,520 lbs
Wheelbase 109"
36,935 'domestic' sales and only 63 for export
4cyl engine new in 1922 (same B&S as their redesigned for 1918 242cid Six cyl)
B&S 3-3/8" x 4.75 for 170cid
18.23 SAE hp

Off topic slightly, but I remember my brother had a model of a 1940-50 Buick, in creme, with a wind-up motor, What's left of it is the key, in the shape of a policeman, with one arm sideways

So that would be an angry policeman then, as in cran-key?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by nota

You could bet there were plenty! That area is harsh and remote even today. Ty for having a look. Some of the ancient road tests are fun reading too

Allow me .. front fender detailing says 1923 .. oval rear window denotes 4cyl for that year .. voila! .. its the Model 23-35 Touring

Weight 2,520 lbs
Wheelbase 109"
36,935 'domestic' sales and only 63 for export
4cyl engine new in 1922 (same B&S as their redesigned for 1918 242cid Six cyl)
B&S 3-3/8" x 4.75 for 170cid
18.23 SAE hp

So that would be an angry policeman then, as in cran-key?

Thanks, so the 23 on the license plate has a meaning, one never knows with German plates.
Imagine looking at a police man, his left arm comes out from the shoulder (surprise, surpise) and makes a p-shape to the hip, while his right arm stretches out horizontally. I don't think he is particularly angry, he just tells you to turn left.....

[henk4]

and in honour of your great grandfather, I found this one for you....
and in the spirit of the thread, what is the second picture, shot at Retromobile, earlier this year?

[nota]

Originally Posted by henk4

and in the spirit of the thread, what is the second picture, shot at Retromobile, earlier this year?

The easy part is 1928, but which of the four individual Touring models? This proves more difficult, just from the pic.
Eg, are the wheels 31" (Standard Six) or 33" as on the Master Six?

So I resorted to peering closely at various (small!) pictures of these two series, and counted the number of bonnet louvres!
To my fading eyes, this aspect does appear to differ between Standard and Master; can anyone confirm?

Relying on the above louvre count, I think your depicted car is this:

1928 Buick Standard Six Touring, Model 28-25, which came in trail green with black mudguards and a buff top.

207cid
23.4 SAE hp
114.5" wb
(Btw all open-top Master Sixes had 128" wb, only two 4-door sedans among many enclosed Master variants were 120")

And thank you kindly for your Series 90 pic (5-passenger Club Sedan, Model 91). After Buick's great looking 1933 range, the big '34 Series 90 was not an especially beautiful car imho, but still very imposing. Those wide-whites make this particular beige rendition, representing Senior 'old money' Buicks, look somewhat more pimp than what my G-G would approve of!

[henk4]

Thanks for the i.d.
What strikes me however, that this 1928 car is only six years previous to the Model 91.....If you had said that the 1928 car was from 1918, I would have believed you also.
Anyway, the Model 91 was good enough to be invited to the 2008 Pebble Beach Concours, where I shot the car.

(I spent some time last night to scrutinize all my shots of various Buicks, and I'll find some ways to post them here or there)

[nota]

Originally Posted by henk4

What strikes me however, that this 1928 car is only six years previous to the Model 91.....If you had said that the 1928 car was from 1918, I would have believed you also.

This observation prompted a quick comparitive look at what 'generational progression' was achieved by some other notable manufacturers, at least in the visual, within similar between-war timeframes. After some thought of fair exemplars, I chose Peugeot and Mercedes-Benz.

Ostensibly there doesn't seem much difference; a continuation of typically upright 'teens' styling themes continuing well into the mid-1930s, when the more integrated and bulbous Aero look revolution took hold, at least at Peugeot.

But look forward into the next revolution, being the more horizontal 'straight through' aka smooth-sided styling, which also manifests within a similar six-year gap:

#1 & 2: 1940 Buick sedans, the latter a nascent 3-box
#3 ~ 5: 1946 Kaisers, almost fully integrated, smooth sides, definitive 3-box shape

[Ferrer]

But couldn't it be that due to WWII car styling evolution just stopped during the late 30's until the mid 40's? Which is why probably we see early post-war cars look very similar to pre-war cars. In fact some manufacturers just started where they had left before, like for instance Alfa Romeo which continued building the 6C 2500 just like they had done before the war.

Which could explain why in some cases there wasn't so much of an evolution between the wars, because the interwar period wasn't all that relaxed. However after WWII we had a long period of peace which prompted car development, and therefore new designs and shapes.

[nota]

Originally Posted by Ferrer

But couldn't it be that due to WWII car styling evolution just stopped during the late 30's until the mid 40's? Which is why probably we see early post-war cars look very similar to pre-war cars. In fact some manufacturers just started where they had left before, like for instance Alfa Romeo which continued building the 6C 2500 just like they had done before the war.

Which could explain why in some cases there wasn't so much of an evolution between the wars, because the interwar period wasn't all that relaxed. However after WWII we had a long period of peace which prompted car development, and therefore new designs and shapes.

In overview I think its true to say that advancements in styling have as much been influenced, reflected and realised, by advancements in industry (new manufacturing processes etc) as by designers and stylists.

I think related to the above, Henk was contrasting the lack of (Buick) styling advancement 1918~28, against vast change into almost unrecognisability by '34.

So anyway, following on, I wondered about various other marques during the interwar years, whether they too had exhibited this extended visual-design stasis, then a rapid 'leap' by the mid '30s. I chose a couple of respected euro brands and it seems they too mirrored what Henk had observed, albeit moreso for Peugeot. (I also had a quick 'decko' at Lancia & FIAT etc)

Then, musing further, I used his six-year gap to highlight the next rapid six-year 'leap' as I see it, from pre-WW2 into the immediate post-war era. To whit the 1940 Buick vs this '46 Kaiser, a then startlingly modern looking car which btw was envisaged and designed during wartime. As were quite a few others, including within Europe and the UK, for example from Gregorie and Citroen etc which iirc continued thinking and designing even during (very) hostile occupation?

For sure many manufacturers (and nations) were pummelled by war. But don't forget the first prototype of Issigonis' Morris Minor was completed on the 1st of September 1943!

[Ferrer]

Originally Posted by nota

In overview I think its true to say that advancements in styling have as much been influenced, reflected and realised, by advancements in industry (new manufacturing processes etc) as by designers and stylists.

I think related to the above, Henk was contrasting the lack of (Buick) styling advancement 1918~28, against vast change into almost unrecognisability by '34.

So anyway, following on, I wondered about various other marques during the interwar years, whether they too had exhibited this extended visual-design stasis, then a rapid 'leap' by the mid '30s. I chose a couple of respected euro brands and it seems they too mirrored what Henk had observed, albeit moreso for Peugeot. (I also had a quick 'decko' at Lancia & FIAT etc)

Then, musing further, I used his six-year gap to highlight the next rapid six-year 'leap' as I see it, from pre-WW2 into the immediate post-war era. To whit the 1940 Buick vs this '46 Kaiser, a then startlingly modern looking car which btw was envisaged and designed during wartime. As were quite a few others, including within Europe and the UK, for example from Gregorie and Citroen etc which iirc continued thinking and designing even during (very) hostile occupation?

For sure many manufacturers (and nations) were pummelled by war. But don't forget the first prototype of Issigonis' Morris Minor was completed on the 1st of September 1943!

Well you have a point and there certainly are exceptions, but I think that there could be a correlation between conservadurism, technically and stylistically (in general) and bad economic conditions. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find graphics or empirical evidence to support my claims.

Nevertheless I'd say that one of the reasons for cars from the 20's and early 30's looking the same is because the bad economic conditions due to WWI first and then the Great Depression made car manufacturers stay with similar styling. However by the mid 30's things had improved and car makers started to experiment and innovate again. This may only apply to European cars, though.

To illustrate this you can see those three Lancias. The first two (a Lambda from 1923 and an Artena from 1930) follow the same styling trends, but by 1937 the Aprilia had changed radically. In a way that's what happened too in the mid 70's with the oil crisis, when car manufacturers soldiered on with oldish cars for several years before actually changing them.

Or maybe, it's none of that...

[henk4]

Let's see whether a mod can open a separate thread for this discussion.