Go to Ultimatecarpage.com

Go Back   Ultimatecarpage.com forums > Automotive forums > Racing forums


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:42 AM
Badsight Badsight is offline
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 436
N.Z.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
So it is perfectly OK to push drivers off the track as long as they are on the ideal line?
not so simple

LH attacked & was too fast in for the line he was on

for LH to remain on that line KR would have had to back off to accomodate LH

but the corner was Kimi's . it was up to the attacking driver (Lewis Hamilton) not to stuff up & ram the car ahead

Kimi Raikkonen had the line & the speed , but had to give them up because the car behind was too fast for the line it was on ?!?!?!?!

you cant just push your way thru traffic in open wheelers .
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:47 AM
RacingManiac's Avatar
RacingManiac RacingManiac is offline
Fanatic
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,437
In my view the whole incident was in 2 parts. The passing move by Lewis on busstop and the subsequent treatment of the advantage gained from cutting the chicane. The pass was botched, period. The move was optimistic at best. Going around outside of a chicane with a single line not being clearly in front was never going to work. As I've said if the guardrail was still there that move would not have been on offer at all. The cutting of the chicane was the result of the botched pass, Lewis DID infact give the position back, before attack again and completing the pass this time around. Stewards think giving the position back was not enough in that case and punished him for it....that I think was silly and they should have just left it as it was....
__________________
University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
www.fsae.utoronto.ca
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:52 AM
Dino Scuderia's Avatar
Dino Scuderia Dino Scuderia is offline
Fanatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,584
Southeast US
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
In my view the whole incident was in 2 parts. The passing move by Lewis on busstop and the subsequent treatment of the advantage gained from cutting the chicane. The pass was botched, period. The move was optimistic at best. Going around outside of a chicane with a single line not being clearly in front was never going to work. As I've said if the guardrail was still there that move would not have been on offer at all. The cutting of the chicane was the result of the botched pass, Lewis DID infact give the position back, before attack again and completing the pass this time around. Stewards think giving the position back was not enough in that case and punished him for it....that I think was silly and they should have just left it as it was....
Agreed. It was a very low percentage pass attempt.

Kimi probably thought Hami would give him the hairpin to cover himself for the cut...but instead Hami immediately went after the lead.

The officials should have left it.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-08-2008, 06:34 AM
motorsportnerd's Avatar
motorsportnerd motorsportnerd is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,759
Haberfield, Sydney
Send a message via MSN to motorsportnerd Send a message via Yahoo to motorsportnerd
Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
I agree with that, but I may have been reading too much on the 10-10 forums, as I interpreted your version as: "Saint Louis is coming, make room, and damn those who don't"
I've been reading the Autosport forums too much recently. It more pro-Ferrari in there compared to the pro-Lewis stance on ten-tenths.
__________________
UCP's biggest Ford Sierra RS500 and BMW M3 E30 fan. My two favourite cars of all time.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-08-2008, 08:47 AM
Kultag's Avatar
Kultag Kultag is offline
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 109
Budapest, Hungary
Pro: If I'm 2nd and the 1st is 30 seconds ahead, if I cut 1 km off the track, shouldn't I get a penalty (>>>> 25 secs)?

Con: Is it in the rules, that if you gain time and position by leaving the track, you have to give back the position AND the time? How would you measure the gap during those moments? What's not prohibited by the rules (on and off the track), you are allowed to do.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-08-2008, 11:19 AM
RazaBlade's Avatar
RazaBlade RazaBlade is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,206
Birmingham, England
Finally come across some decent debate.
The way I see it, and I shouted at the TV when it happened, was that Lewis didnt return back to a fair position after giving the place back to Raikonnen. He simply slotted straight back into Kimi's slipstream. Everyone keeps banding about the '6kph slower', but he more than made that up in half a straight - obviously somethings not right!!

I think the officials were right to penalise him, but cant comment on the actual penalty. The drive-through equivalency sounds that was mentionned here reasonable.
__________________
Porsche!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-08-2008, 12:28 PM
Jack_Bauer's Avatar
Jack_Bauer Jack_Bauer is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,163
UK
Send a message via MSN to Jack_Bauer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsight View Post
not so simple

LH attacked & was too fast in for the line he was on

for LH to remain on that line KR would have had to back off to accomodate LH

but the corner was Kimi's . it was up to the attacking driver (Lewis Hamilton) not to stuff up & ram the car ahead

Kimi Raikkonen had the line & the speed , but had to give them up because the car behind was too fast for the line it was on ?!?!?!?!

you cant just push your way thru traffic in open wheelers .
You have been making out like Lewis was wrecklessly out of control and made some kind of wild move on Kimi from way back, and that Kimi was perfectly in control throughout and had the right of way throughout. Watching the footage it is obvious that that wasn't the case.

Both drivers locked up and were slightly out of control under braking on the way into the Bus Stop; perfectly understandable given the pressure and the greasy conditions. Both drivers clearly regained control as they turned in with Lewis marginally ahead on the outside, but essentially neck and neck. Lewis tried to drive around the outside but Kimi went ultra defensive and quite deliberately squeezed Hamilton off; a firm move, but fair enough.

By that point LH had no choice but to cut the chicane. He got fractionally ahead of KR as a result but immediately eased off to give KR the lead and the line up to La Source, as is generally considered good racing practice. He was in pretty much exactly the same place, tucked up behind Kimi, as he would have been had he backed off and followed him through the chicane. Any advantage he had gained had been given back.

He then outbraked and passed Kimi fair and square into La Source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RazaBlade View Post
Finally come across some decent debate.
The way I see it, and I shouted at the TV when it happened, was that Lewis didnt return back to a fair position after giving the place back to Raikonnen. He simply slotted straight back into Kimi's slipstream. Everyone keeps banding about the '6kph slower', but he more than made that up in half a straight - obviously somethings not right!!
How do you figure that?

Firstly, as you've noticed, he was in the slipstream so that speed can easily be made up.

Secondly, I'd guess that in an F1 car hitting the braked 0.05secs later than your opponent will make up 6kmph.

Both drivers drove firmly but fairly as far as I (and everyone else bar the stewards and the Tifosi) can see. It was just good racing. Watch any touring car series* or anything like that and you will see moves like that every race, and rightfully unpunished.


To echo what others have said regarding the sanitisation of Spa, I tend to agree. Not only Hamilton's move, but several others throughout the race simply would not have been achievable a few years ago. Raikkonen in particular used running wide onto the tarmac run off to his advantage on more than one occasion. Had the old wall on the exit La Source still been there he would have crashed out on laps one and two driving as he did. Indeed, the only reason Kimi was close enough to Hamilton to pass him in the tangle with the spinning Rosberg was that Raikkonen had blasted right around the outside of Pouhon on the high-grip run-off zone. A few years ago running wide there would have left him trundling through the gravel or buried in a tyre wall.

*with the exception of DTM, where nothing ever happens any more.
__________________
uәʞoɹq spɹɐoqʎәʞ ʎɯ
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-08-2008, 12:31 PM
Homem de Gelo's Avatar
Homem de Gelo Homem de Gelo is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,018
Brazil
Send a message via MSN to Homem de Gelo
What a waste of our time in front of the TV. Why don't they pick the winner earlier and save us some sleep?

Politics ruin the racing again. This is ****ing ridiculous.
__________________
Would it be possible, to play forever?
The conclusion reached was that a player is inevitably doomed to lose.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09-08-2008, 12:48 PM
Quiggs's Avatar
Quiggs Quiggs is offline
Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,984
Northampton, Pennsylvania
Send a message via AIM to Quiggs Send a message via MSN to Quiggs
Rubbin's racin'. Buncha whiny-ass Eurotrash cry babies in F1.
__________________
[O o)O=\x/=O(o O]

The things we do for girls who won't sleep with us.

Patrick says:
dads is too long so it wont fit
so i took hers out
and put mine in
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 09-08-2008, 06:43 PM
Kitdy's Avatar
Kitdy Kitdy is offline
Fanatic
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,601
Planet F1 had this to day:

Quote:
According to Allen, 'The stewards clearly felt that he didn't give back enough of the advantage he gained from cutting the chicane.' In fact, there is no basis to believe this was part of the stewards' reasoning. Their press release announcing Hamilton's punishment only stipulated that he had been punished for leaving the track and 'gaining an advantage' when he cut the chicane. It makes no mention of degree and offers no sort of suggestion or indication that Hamilton was punished because he was deemed not to have adequately surrendered that advantage. Under the terms of their punishment, they were equally entitled to punish Hamilton even if he brought his McLaren to a complete halt as Raikkonen scampered into the distance.
I think that's interesting.

Why wasn't Kimi told to give his position back after passing Lewis under yellows? Was it because Lewis went off and you are allowed to pass on yellows if the person goes off?

Also as I mentioned before and no one responded to, did not Nick Heidfeld and others pass several people under yellows, not just Timo?

Lap Chart

This seems to show that Heidfeld did gain positions while the yellows were waving unless I am somehow mistaken.

Last edited by Kitdy; 09-08-2008 at 06:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 09-08-2008, 07:45 PM
f6fhellcat13's Avatar
f6fhellcat13 f6fhellcat13 is offline
Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,012
└A & Connecticlump
Send a message via AIM to f6fhellcat13 Send a message via MSN to f6fhellcat13
...and somehow Heidfeld finished, penalty adjusted, ahead of Lewis...sigh. As on of the few McLaren fans who likes Kovi more than Lewis i think I can objectively say that the penalty was undeserved. Has anyone actually gone thru the FIA rulebook? or are we all relying on soundbites?
__________________
"Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
"No. My Finnish is fine, I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 09-08-2008, 08:45 PM
motorsportnerd's Avatar
motorsportnerd motorsportnerd is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,759
Haberfield, Sydney
Send a message via MSN to motorsportnerd Send a message via Yahoo to motorsportnerd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
Planet F1 had this to day:



I think that's interesting.

Why wasn't Kimi told to give his position back after passing Lewis under yellows? Was it because Lewis went off and you are allowed to pass on yellows if the person goes off?

Also as I mentioned before and no one responded to, did not Nick Heidfeld and others pass several people under yellows, not just Timo?

Lap Chart

This seems to show that Heidfeld did gain positions while the yellows were waving unless I am somehow mistaken.

I agree. According to this quote, Lewis was going to get a penalty for cutting the chicane regardless. If so, can someone tell me why Kimi wasn't penalised for running wide at La Source on Lap 1 (true he was avoiding Lewis' spin) or using a large part of the runoff area to gain advantage after Lewis passed him? Or why Rosberg didn't get a penalty for cutting the chicance early in the race?
If penalties are going to be applied, they need to be given to everyone - not just McLaren drivers (remember Kovi also got fairly judged drive through penalty in the race, but what about the others that committed transgressions?).
__________________
UCP's biggest Ford Sierra RS500 and BMW M3 E30 fan. My two favourite cars of all time.

Last edited by motorsportnerd; 09-08-2008 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 09-08-2008, 10:36 PM
henk4's Avatar
henk4 henk4 is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 27,166
Rozenburg, Holland
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
If penalties are going to be applied, they need to be given to everyone - not just McLaren drivers (remember Kovi also got fairly judged drive through penalty in the race, but what about the others that committed transgressions?).
Post race Glock got a 25 sec penalty for overtaking under yellow.
__________________
"I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 09-08-2008, 10:57 PM
fpv_gtho fpv_gtho is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 20,953
St Marys Western Sydney
Send a message via MSN to fpv_gtho
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
In my view the whole incident was in 2 parts. The passing move by Lewis on busstop and the subsequent treatment of the advantage gained from cutting the chicane. The pass was botched, period. The move was optimistic at best. Going around outside of a chicane with a single line not being clearly in front was never going to work. As I've said if the guardrail was still there that move would not have been on offer at all. The cutting of the chicane was the result of the botched pass, Lewis DID infact give the position back, before attack again and completing the pass this time around. Stewards think giving the position back was not enough in that case and punished him for it....that I think was silly and they should have just left it as it was....
I dont recall the specifics myself, but ive read others bring up Suzuka 2005 where Alonso made a botched pass on Klien, gave it back and re-overtook him, just for the FIA to order him to give it back again.

Theres almost a precedent set there, and had it been lap 20 instead of the 2nd last or whichever it had been, the FIA wouldve had the means to re-adress the issue without the need for a penalty.
__________________
I am the Stig
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 09-08-2008, 11:02 PM
twinspark twinspark is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 817
Tampere
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
I agree. According to this quote, Lewis was going to get a penalty for cutting the chicane regardless. If so, can someone tell me why Kimi wasn't penalised for running wide at La Source on Lap 1 (true he was avoiding Lewis' spin) or using a large part of the runoff area to gain advantage after Lewis passed him?
I'm sure it's allowed to run wide to avoid hitting another car when there's no other options. Sure, Räikkönen ran wide again after Hamilton's pass, but he gained nothing because of it.

Still about the Bus Stop incident, I looked the Hamilton onboard camera footage again and again, and in my opinion he could just have lifted and stayed on track through the chicane, instead of cutting it. He woul've lost a couple tenths, but that's racing. When he returned to the part of the circuit that mentioned racing should be done, I'm not sure he even left Räikkönen by, he just got worse acceleration to the straight being off line. So as far as the penalty is given only on whether Hamilton eased off enough or not, I still say it was easily justified. Just look at the footage.

By the rules I suppose Heidfeld should also be penalised for overtaking under yellows, but were those yellows out only because of the rain? If so, I find it somewhat stupid when there's cars out on wet tyres.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
belgium, controversy, eau rouge, ferrari, formula 1, formula one, lewis hamilton, lolocaust, mclaren, penalty, skill, spa, talent


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Renault F1 R28 2008 Sledgehammer Matt's Hi-Res Hide-Out 14 08-20-2008 04:31 PM
2008 Formula One Monaco Grand Prix Jack_Bauer Racing forums 64 06-21-2008 08:02 AM
Planned 2008 Superleague Formula with 750 hp V-12s togos452 Racing forums 2 05-08-2008 12:08 PM
2008 NASCAR Sprint Cup Schedule DanicaFan Racing forums 0 12-31-2007 05:06 AM
2008 Formula 1 Technical Regulations Jack_Bauer Racing forums 7 12-22-2005 02:32 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:22 AM.

 

© 1998 - 2014 Ultimatecarpage.com