Supercar Engine Poll

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

Tell you waht SLicks, YOU explain why a Corvette or Viper is a SUPERCAR.

Maybe he can't, but I'll give it a shot...

NOt a great sportscar, or good sportcar or good all rounder or any other mediocrity.

Not a great sportscar? I dare you to compare anything to the stock performance of the Corvette or Viper for the price of either. If I really wanted to play, I'd go dollar for dollar and match the price of any of your Euro-wagons, and I'd not only outperform anything you could field, but ALSO have a more than competent street-to-track car to boot.

I'm certain if we did play like that, you'ld find that your euro-wagons and pasta rockets to be over-tuned and underperforming.

Justify them even being CONSIDERED a SUPERCAR.

Hmm okay, that means stock numbers are the rule of the day.

Corvette: 400 HP / 400 Ft.Lbs
Viper: 500 HP / 525 ft.lbs
Corvette skidpad: .98g
Viper Skidpad: 1.05g
Corvette 70-0: 166 ft
Viper 60-0: 97 ft
Corvette 0-60:4.3 seconds
Viper 0-60:3.9 seconds
Corvette QMT: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Viper QMT:11.77 sec @ 123.6 mph
Corvette $:$47,000
Viper $:$79,995

Now, if road holding and power aren't the measures of the European supercar, then god help me, I don't want one. Hell, for what they cost I still don't want one.

Write down all the rason with a full explanation of why it merits it.
Go on, come on, do some work, waiting ........

Your wait is over.
I am sure you will come back with some Euro-snob response resonating your dislike for all things American, including performance. In my opinion however, a Marque and a nice cut of leather do not a supercar make, nor does laggy, peaky turbos or huge pricetags a supercar make either. but to each his own..

[fpv_gtho]

Originally Posted by Hjholter3

Not a great sportscar?

Oh boy did you miss the mark with that one. He was saying to Slicks not to prove it as a great sportscar, not saying it isnt a great sportscar.

I dare you to compare anything to the stock performance of the Corvette or Viper for the price of either. If I really wanted to play, I'd go dollar for dollar and match the price of any of your Euro-wagons, and I'd not only outperform anything you could field, but ALSO have a more than competent street-to-track car to boot.

If performance on a doller per doller basis is all your after, then why not jump straight straight into a kit car or such, which im sure you'll find in abundance from Europe

Hmm okay, that means stock numbers are the rule of the day.

Corvette: 400 HP / 400 Ft.Lbs
Viper: 500 HP / 525 ft.lbs
Corvette skidpad: .98g
Viper Skidpad: 1.05g
Corvette 70-0: 166 ft
Viper 60-0: 97 ft
Corvette 0-60:4.3 seconds
Viper 0-60:3.9 seconds
Corvette QMT: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Viper QMT:11.77 sec @ 123.6 mph
Corvette $:$47,000
Viper $:$79,995

Now, if road holding and power aren't the measures of the European supercar, then god help me, I don't want one. Hell, for what they cost I still don't want one.

What about some track times or such, skidpan and slalom figures as much as they seem to be thrown around stateside, arent the final story.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by megotmea7

what makes an enzo a supercar? or a veyron? or a mucialago?

The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".

it's really quite ewasy to write the subjective description. When trying to apply minutiae of facts to "justify and quantify" it becomes a fairly pointless exercise.

like the TG "cool wall"

hjholter, what you presented were cold figures that show a fast sportscar. I can give you many cars which better that and I wouldn't even consider them as great sportscars never mind supercars. The majority of the kit cars in the world can better some/most of the Viper/Vette figures. but they are a LONG way from supercars The ULTIMA - way the fastest is a long step away from Supercar-status. it's a fast piece of kit tat handles exceptionally well andholds record, but it don't cut it on so many levels of "supercarness"

[megotmea7]

The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".

so what your saying performance takes a back seat to high tech gadgetery and dodads? it has to look cool, and it has to be comfortable?

what about PROVEN engineering and design(as "best" is subjective. proven could very well be the best. what dictates "the best"? the cost?) to attain the same result for 1/3rd the price? does that not qualify as a supercar?

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by fpv_gtho

If performance on a doller per doller basis is all your after, then why not jump straight straight into a kit car or such, which im sure you'll find in abundance from Europe.

For one, try financing a kit car. Two, Why? I could easily build a kit car, but in that case, now I have to put together my ride that I couldn't finance, and after that insure. I think modding a Corvette or Viper would be the best bet.

What about some track times or such, skidpan and slalom figures as much as they seem to be thrown around stateside, arent the final story.

because track times are driver dependent, skidpad numbers and QMT's are as close to breaking down a cars performance to the basis: who can accelerate most quicky, and who can handle turns most readily. anything after that (and often including that) is driver dependent.
The final story is your skill + whatever the car is capable of.

[fpv_gtho]

You'll find that basically any aspect to a cars performance is driver dependant. Your not going to get the same slalom spees, skidpan G's and of course the same track cars out of the same car with 10 different drivers. Better drivers will extract more from the car

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".

or.. "a nice cut of leather in an underperforming vehicle crowned with an overhyped marque for way too much money". gotcha.
Best design is opinion, especially when your Euro-wagon is ugly AND underperforms a car that cost so much less.

it's really quite ewasy to write the subjective description. When trying to apply minutiae of facts to "justify and quantify" it becomes a fairly pointless exercise.

you mean numbers indicating what the car is capable of are pointless?

hjholter, what you presented were cold figures that show a fast sportscar.

you mean numbers by which all cars are evaluated? I indeed presented those.

I can give you many cars which better that and I wouldn't even consider them as great sportscars never mind supercars. The majority of the kit cars in the world can better some/most of the Viper/Vette figures.

but can you give me these cars at the same or BETTER cost than the Viper or Vette? I think not.

As for the kit cars, you have to put it together yourself, in whole or part, and that labour and time is equivilant to dollars; time equals money, afterall, and that is time spend I would rather have with my signifigant other.. how about you? and nevermind financing and the like, I've already covered that.

but they are a LONG way from supercars

I guess if it doesn't have a euro-trash badge it doesn't do anything for ya, eh?

The ULTIMA - way the fastest is a long step away from Supercar-status. it's a fast piece of kit tat handles exceptionally well andholds record, but it don't cut it on so many levels of "supercarness"

Again, no badge and no nice cut of leather, and you have to put it together yourself. I guess it can't be a supercar

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by fpv_gtho

You'll find that basically any aspect to a cars performance is driver dependant. Your not going to get the same slalom spees, skidpan G's and of course the same track cars out of the same car with 10 different drivers. Better drivers will extract more from the car

Thank you for clarifying my point, but I'll go one more: outside of mathmatical calculation, no car will give you 100% without some skill. The math can tell you what it is capable of, but only YOU and YOUR skill determine what the car actually does and how it performs.

[fpv_gtho]

So then if thats the case, why support skidpan and slalom figures but not track times? Sre the average idiot off the street will get far from the best, but those people that do rely on track times either get a credible driver to get all the figures, or they themselves are a credible driver.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by megotmea7

so what your saying performance takes a back seat to high tech gadgetery and dodads? it has to look cool, and it has to be comfortable?

where did you start reading ? best engineering" was up there too you know.
Shouldn't have skipped over that to try to get over a point.
Neither is that the only one !!

what about PROVEN engineering and design(as "best" is subjective. proven could very well be the best. what dictates "the best"? the cost?) to attain the same result for 1/3rd the price? does that not qualify as a supercar?

ah, NOW you're trying to bring "bang for buck" in and that doesn'ty work in ANY equation of the elite top - whcih surely is what a supercar must be.
Try to justify 2000 dollars for a bottle of 50 year old malt whisky when I can buy Bells for a fiver !! Same with wine, brandy, food, clothes, and yetp, cars.
McDonalds are a top restaurant ? He, proven formula Same ingredients - meat and heat
Some can tell the difference and want it and some can't. So is McDOnalds a top restaurant becase someone doesn't know any different ? Course not !!!
Seats that are adjustable, comfortable, switches that "feel" right ( a failing of Jaguars over the years keeping THEM out of that calss coz they isnisted in using Ford switches straight out of 5K Escorts !!!!
The "everything in the right place" feel.
Everything with the "feel of quality" - a rason I'd keep the F40 OUT of Supercar. up close they feel and look cheap !!!
Is it starting to make more sense to you by looking BEYOND figures ( as price is just one more )

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Hjholter3

For one, try financing a kit car. Two, Why? I could easily build a kit car, but in that case, now I have to put together my ride that I couldn't finance, and after that insure. I think modding a Corvette or Viper would be the best bet.

When we talk about kit cars we're generally refereing to the WIDE variety offered elsewhere.
The US is limited in which cars it gets.
The Tiger ZZ is a 15K DOLLAR car that does 0-60 in sub 3 seconds
You can buy most kits pre-built for another 5-10K.
They achieve it through lightness - and IN that aren't really up for being "supercars" despite their blistering performance on tracks and roads.

because track times are driver dependent, skidpad numbers and QMT's are as close to breaking down a cars performance to the basis: who can accelerate most quicky, and who can handle turns most readily. anything after that (and often including that) is driver dependent.
The final story is your skill + whatever the car is capable of.

The numbers have been oft debated and generally agreed that whilst they give a number they dont' give an experience.
The favourite "useless numebr" is the skidpan - it only measures a single variable of a suspenion. The ability of a cr to handle a corner is dependand t on the corner BEFOER and the corner AFTER> You can get HIGH G figures real easy and end up with an uncontrollabel car on corners at the limit.
Even the slalom is questionable as it only test one harmonic of the suspension

[Hjholter3]

Now, what I was initially here for.

I say a 6 liter LS1 engine could easily meet the power goals for this supercar, Naturally aspirated and on readily available and in-expensive engine components.

Why not the competition?

The Ford 4 liter turbo I-Six is peaky, and lag in a supercar is unnacceptable. It's also a tall and heavy engine, made moreso by the turbo and all the piping necessary to maintain the integrety of the engine and smooth power output.
Nizpro, who tuned the I6 opened the RPM band to allow the engine to make big power without the dangers caused by big torque ( rods and rod bearing failure for one ) but in that, had to replace the valvetrain with non-stock pieces. not good.

The mondeo 3 Liter turbo 'duratec' six is a conventional V engine, but would be at its peak in the range of power you would want this car to be in, meaning you run more risk of blown head gaskets and other failures common to turbo engines, plus the ever-present risk of rod and rod bearing failure.

The LS1 / LS6 in stock, naturally aspirated form is capable of producing numbers near what this car would need. with a head and cam swap, these engines can easily make 450 horsepower to the flywheel.

[fpv_gtho]

Originally Posted by Hjholter3

The Ford 4 liter turbo I-Six is peaky, and lag in a supercar is unnacceptable. It's also a tall and heavy engine, made moreso by the turbo and all the piping necessary to maintain the integrety of the engine and smooth power output.
Nizpro, who tuned the I6 opened the RPM band to allow the engine to make big power without the dangers caused by big torque ( rods and rod bearing failure for one ) but in that, had to replace the valvetrain with non-stock pieces. not good.

Peaky? Funny that no one else seems to agree.

The XR6T STANDARD has 450nm from 2000-4500rpm, does that sound peaky
The F6 Typhoon STANDARD has 550nm from 2000-4250rpm, does that also sound peaky?
The Nizpro Cobra stage 3 kit hits its peak torque of over 800nm around 3000rpm, does that also sound peaky?

Now, as for the engine Nizpro went all out on. Yes they did increase the revs, the original engine done 6500rpm from 6000rpm and that returned over 700kw. They went back and retuned it and its now got over 900kw. I think when your dealing with those numbers, its hardly a bad thing having to go back and upgrade the internals for that. The XR6T stock has basically the same internals other than pistons (for lower compression) to the normal XR6. Just one more way that Ford under-engineered the car to prevent backyard tuning, ontop of keeping the normal XR6's injectors, transmissions, fuel pump, small intercooler as well as fitting 2 supercodes in the ECU.

Oh, by the way, that engine isnt peaky either. Its been said that from as litle as 2000-3000, it torque figure eclipses that of the Cobra stage 3 kit on its wa to a peak figure way over 1000nm

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

When we talk about kit cars we're generally refereing to the WIDE variety offered elsewhere.

I've seen some of that variety, and I'm not impressed.

The US is limited in which cars it gets.
The Tiger ZZ is a 15K DOLLAR car that does 0-60 in sub 3 seconds
You can buy most kits pre-built for another 5-10K.

so it's a 15k sports car eh? I'd rather buy an Rx7 and put an LS1 in it.. or a Miata... Cost me less and have less assembly involved. I'd get an 'experiance'

They achieve it through lightness - and IN that aren't really up for being "supercars" despite their blistering performance on tracks and roads.

And you have to put them together yourself, or pay more to get someone else to turn-key them for ya. niether option seems thrilling to me.

The numbers have been oft debated and generally agreed that whilst they give a number they dont' give an experience.

meaning that they aren't as good as actually test driving the cars back to back...

The favourite "useless numebr" is the skidpan - it only measures a single variable of a suspenion. The ability of a car to handle a corner is dependent on the corner BEFOER and the corner AFTER You can get HIGH G figures real easy and end up with an uncontrollabel car on corners at the limit.
Even the slalom is questionable as it only test one harmonic of the suspension

Yet they are numbers that are used to quantify most every cars performance, and are a good rule of thumb. I think I've made my point that Eurotrash is not the ultimate in performance, and probably never will be, and will never be worth it for the price paid, unless of course your a billionare or other 'too many dollars not enough sense' individual and are looking for an experiance. So heres an experiance for ya: Twin Turbo Vette passing whatever you happen to put forward as a supercar. he paid less, his car is probably less fragile and he gets to pass whatever it is you put on that silverplatter of supercardom.

[Hjholter3]

Originally Posted by fpv_gtho

Peaky? Funny that no one else seems to agree.

compared to any N/a engine with some displacement it IS peaky.

The XR6T STANDARD has 450nm from 2000-4500rpm, does that sound peaky
The F6 Typhoon STANDARD has 550nm from 2000-4250rpm, does that also sound peaky?
The Nizpro Cobra stage 3 kit hits its peak torque of over 8000nm around 3000rpm, does that also sound peaky?

one, your standard engine has to have a turbo to put out LS1 N/a numbers.
two, your stage 3 kit makes alot of torque, so I'm guessing you meant 800nm, meaning you have to buy a stage three kit to make 590 foot.pounds.

Thats assuring.

Now, as for the engine Nizpro went all out on. Yes they did increase the revs, the original engine done 6500rpm from 6000rpm and that returned over 700kw. They went back and retuned it and its now got over 900kw.

this is a one off engine, right? Or can you buy the parts to put this together yourself? Because if they're keeping it to themselves, you can keep dreaming.

I think when your dealing with those numbers, its hardly a bad thing having to go back and upgrade the internals for that. The XR6T stock has basically the same internals other than pistons (for lower compression) to the normal XR6. Just one more way that Ford under-engineered the car to prevent backyard tuning, ontop of keeping the normal XR6's injectors, transmissions, fuel pump, small intercooler as well as fitting 2 supercodes in the ECU.

Meaning, no matter what you have to replace the engine internals, and your still building a tall, heavy turbo engine. I mean, it gets better and better.

Oh, by the way, that engine isnt peaky either. Its been said that from as litle as 2000-3000, it torque figure eclipses that of the Cobra stage 3 kit on its wa to a peak figure way over 1000nm

.. in an engine which the compenents for you can't buy in kit form and can only hope goes further than a one-off halo engine in someone else's car.

According to the website, the stage 3 kit makes 600 flywheel horsepower and 600 ft.lbs, yet costs 'only' 19,800 AU, which is the equivilant to 15,165.49 USD. Now you try to tell me I can't build a better LS1 for that. Good luck.