Supercar Engine Poll

[Turbonutter55]

Numbers are bhp/lb ft

[UCR]

Rover v8, Cheap as hell

[Suka]

I've gone for the Radical V8, assuming that is the new one?

[Matra et Alpine]

we need weights and dimesions or we're chosing for all the wrong reason.

It needs the chassis guys to think how and where it would fit.

I also think it needs to include the clutch, bellhousing and transaxle for the mid/'rear mountign to work out. Can't see how we can chose an engine and THEN find out it costs a fortun to put it transverse in the rear - the chassis guys might suggest that !!!

Also it needs to be 160ks before rebuild. I can only think of one engien I'd stake my money on THAT numebr ( personally I think E-Ns being extreme in expecting a SUPERCAR to meet that, but he's our 'Bangle" )

[kko]

Fine take my Engine power away...

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by kko

Fine take my Engine power away...

If we can get lots of power AND 160ks before rebuid then fine.
Hell I've had to turn the back on the only chance of building a FIRST-EVER lightweight Supercar

[my porsche]

how about a porsche horizontally opposed 6 cylinder twin turbo 3.6 litre water cooled engine?

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

1.5 turbo charged F1 engines from way back, ran on methanol or something, cant remember the name

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by KnifeEdge_2K1

1.5 turbo charged F1 engines from way back, ran on methanol or something, cant remember the name

No they ran on high-octane petroleum.

HOWEVER, there was a famous incident when it came to light that oil company BASF-Wintershall had been using a fuel concoction, (passed by FISA as legal) that was in fact, literally, a rocket fuel from WW2 - ironically for the BMW engine.

There was lots of "innovation" from fuel companies back then. Elf were supplying Renault with 20-odd different high-octane mixes and supposedly inluding 2 mixes in the car. At the touch of a switch the driver could swicth to a higher octancve for short "boost" on the straights Couldn't do it for long as it destroyed the valves !!!

Some of the esoteric additives ( and even the well known ones ) were highly dangerous in contact with skin so FIA changed the rules to limit what additives were permissable. BUT it has always been a petroleum base.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

hmm, grade 11 chemistry flooding back into my head

methane, ethane, propane, butane, pentane, hexane, heptane, octane, nonane, decane

lol

actually does anyone know the octane rating of the fuel used in F1 now?

i know you can get 100+ octane fuel at most tracks but i dunno bout F1

actually while we're on this subject

what octane fuels do WRC cars use, JGTC, GT, Ferrari Challenge series, lemans ...

[my porsche]

id be willing to bet its around 97 or something

[Matra et Alpine]

ARTICLE 19 : FUEL
19.1 Purpose of Article 19:
19.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the fuel used in Formula One is petrol as this term is generally understood.
19.1.2 The detailed requirements of this Article are intended to ensure the use of fuels that are composed of compounds normally found in commercial fuels and to prohibit the use of specific power-boosting chemical compounds. Acceptable compounds and compound classes are defined in 19.2 and 19.4.4. In addition, to cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 19.2 and 19.4.4 definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel.
19.1.3 Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.
19.2 Definitions:
Paraffins - straight chain and branched alkanes.
Olefins - straight chain and branched mono-olefins and di-olefins.
- monocyclic mono-olefins (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Di-olefins - straight chain or branched or monocyclic or bicyclic or tricyclic hydrocarbons (with five or more carbon atoms in any ring) with or without paraffinic side chains, containing two double bonds per molecule.
Naphthenes - monocyclic alkanes (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Aromatics - monocyclic and bicyclic aromatic rings with or without paraffinic or olefinic side chains and/or fused naphthenic rings. Only one double bond may be present outside the aromatic ring. Fused naphthenic rings must meet the naphthene definition above.
Oxygenates - specified organic compounds containing oxygen.
19.3 Properties:
The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics:
Property Units Min Max Test Method
RON 95.0 102.0 ASTM D 2699-86
MON 85.0 ASTM D 2700-86
Oxygen %m/m 2.7 Elemental Analysis
Nitrogen mg/kg 500 ASTM D 4629
Benzene %v/v 1.0 EN 238
RVP hPa 450 600 ASTM D 323
Lead g/l 0.005 ASTM D 3237
Density at 15°C kg/m³ 720.0 775.0 ASTM D 4052
Oxidation Stability minutes 360 ASTM D 525
Existent gum mg/100ml 5.0 EN 26246
Sulphur mg/kg 10 ASTM D 5453
Copper corrosion rating C1 ISO 2160
Electrical conductivity pS/m 200 ASTM D 2624
Distillation characteristics:
2005 F1 Technical Regulations 41 / 50 30 October 2004
At E70°C %v/v 20.0 48.0 ISO 3405
At E100°C %v/v 46.0 71.0 ISO 3405
At E150°C %v/v 75.0 ISO 3405
Final Boiling Point °C 210 ISO 3405
Residue %v/v 2.0 ISO 3405
The fuel will be accepted or rejected according to ASTM D 3244 with a onfidence limit of 95%.
19.4 Composition of the fuel:
19.4.1 The composition of the petrol must comply with the specifications detailed below:
Component Units Min Max Test Method
Aromatics %v/v 35* ASTM D 1319
Olefins %v/v 18* ASTM D 1319
Total di-olefins %m/m 1 GCMS
Total styrene and alkyl derivatives %m/m 1 GCMS
* Values corrected for fuel oxygen content.
In addition, the fuel must contain no substance which is capable of ixothermic reaction in the absence of external oxygen.
19.4.2 The total of individual hydrocarbon components present at concentrations of less than 5% m/m must be at least 30% m/m of the fuel.
19.4.3 The total concentration of each hydrocarbon group in the total fuel sample (defined by carbon number and hydrocarbon type), must not exceed the limits given in the table below:
% m/m C4 C5 C6 C7 C8 C9+ Non PONA* Unassigned
Paraffins 10 30 25 25 55 20 - -
Naphthenes - 5 10 10 10 10 - -
Olefins 5 20 20 15 10 10 - -
Aromatics - - 1.2 35 35 30 - -
Maximum 15 40 45 50 60 45 1 5
* Non PONA are components not meeting definitions in 19.2 and 19.4.4
For the purposes of this table, a gas chromatographic technique must be employed which can classify hydrocarbons in the total fuel sample such that all those identified are allocated to the appropriate cell of the table. Compounds present at concentrations below 0.1% by mass may be deemed unassigned, except that it is the responsibility of the fuel approval laboratory to ensure that components representing at least 95% by mass of the total fuel are assigned. The sum of the non PONA and unassigned hydrocarbons must not exceed 5% by mass of the total fuel sample.
2005 F1 Technical Regulations 42 / 50 30 October 2004
19.4.4 The only oxygenates permitted are:
Methanol (MeOH)
Ethanol (EtOH)
Iso-propyl alcohol (IPA)
Iso-butyl alcohol (IBA)
Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE)
Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (ETBE)
Tertiary Amyl Methyl Ether (TAME)
Di-Isopropyl Ether (DIPE)
n-Propyl alcohol (NPA)
Tertiary Butyl Alcohol (TBA)
n-Butyl Alcohol (NBA)
Secondary Butyl Alcohol (SBA)
19.4.5 Manganese based additives are not permitted.
19.5 Air:
Only ambient air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant.
19.6 Safety:
19.6.1 All competitors must be in possession of a Material Safety Data Sheet for each type of petrol used. This sheet must be made out in accordance with EC Directive 93/112/EEC and all information contained therein strictly adhered to.
19.7 Fuel approval:
19.7.1 Before any fuel may be used in an Event, two separate five litre samples, in suitable containers, must be submitted to the FIA for analysis and approval.
19.7.2 No fuel may be used in an Event without prior written approval of the FIA.
19.8 Sampling and testing at an Event:
19.8.1 All samples will be taken in accordance with FIA Formula One fuel sampling procedure, a copy of which may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
19.8.2 Fuel samples taken during an Event will be checked for conformity by using a gas chromatographic technique, which will compare the sample taken with an approved fuel. Samples, which differ from the approved fuel in a manner consistent with evaporative loss, will be considered to conform. However, the FIA retains the right to subject the fuel sample to further testing at an FIA approved laboratory.
19.8.3 GC peak areas of the sample will be compared with those obtained from the reference fuel. Increases in any given peak area (relative to its adjacent peak areas) which are greater than 12%, or an absolute
amount greater than 0.1% for compounds present at concentrations below 0.8%, will be deemed not to comply.
If a peak is detected in a fuel sample that was absent in the corresponding reference fuel, and its peak area represents more than 0.10% of the summed peak areas of the fuel, the fuel will be deemed not to comply.

[Matra et Alpine]

SUMMARY
The base is 95-102 octane petroleum.
additives are limited and tested.

KinifeEdge is likely the only one to understand all that

[Coventrysucks]

The rules on F1 fuels are incredibly strict.
Over the summer I met the man from Mobil who's job it is to stand in the back of a Team McLaren Mercedes truck and make sure that all of the fuel is exactly as specified to the FIA.

Even tiny contaminants from containers, vessels etc can alter the composition of the fuel, and if it doesn't match what the FIA have, you can be penalised.

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah. The 'smartest' additive was the lead pellets Ken Tyrrell put in the cars at their last pit stop to ensure they were above minimum weight at the end of the GP