Pushrod or OHC

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Juggs

matra thank you for setting me straight on a couple things..however i wonder if you agree with what i said about airflow characteristics on a 4 vavle OHC vs 2 valve OHV

Yes I concur.

There is a formula that equates the valve lift to the valve size and the optimum. But I can't remember it only knowing the figures for the cvommon heads I've reworked over the years It's on my list of things to fidn in my library of tuning books. Nowadyas we seldon have to go "back to first principles" the way we did in the 60s when porting a Mini 1275 head

I DO remember that some companies ( Toyota was one ) that played with 5 valves as it gave less null-spots in the chamber but they didnt' get taken up much as I'm sure the cams woudl ahve been a nightmare to squeeze in to the availabel space.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Slicks

We've all heard your stories about the Grand AM rental car you got. Stop complaining about it, its a RENTAL car. Its NOT a performance car, it competes with the likes of the Civic and such, its a kids beater car. And the economy you got was with the 4 speed auto box, congradulations, stop comparing it to 5 and 6 speed diesel european spec cars.

In this thread though I did not mention anything about diesels. This GM V6 engine is placed in run of the mill cars and I got one like that so I think I have every right to talk about it. I even got the Ram-Air version which poured out a whopping 5 BHP more than the standard version. It even had four exhaust pipes, so it was clearly meant to be sporty, but it only produced an irritating drone.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Slicks

OMG, what a surprise! A 3L V6 is smaller than a 5.7-7.0L V8, no way!
For an even comparison try and find an equally displaced V8 with OHC.

Just a random example from your way of posting. Go and read how Culver and Jugss respnd to posts and try to emulate that,

[henk4]

for illustration purposes a Venturi 300 and an AlpineA610GTA

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

I DO remember that some companies ( Toyota was one ) that played with 5 valves as it gave less null-spots in the chamber but they didnt' get taken up much as I'm sure the cams woudl ahve been a nightmare to squeeze in to the availabel space.

Audi introduced 5-valve heads and the 4 pot 1.8 turbo engine used in a lot of Volkswagen based products is still dubbed 20V.

[targa]

DOHC PWN5 OHV 8!tch3s

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by henk4

an AlpineA610GTA

<PEDANT-MODE>
The picture is an A610.
The GTA was the earlier version, similar but really 90% different
</PEDANT-MODE>
This is a GTA.

Note the lights and the lack of side air vents

[Suka]

Originally Posted by henk4

for illustration purposes a Venturi 300 and an AlpineA610GTA

Behind the Alpine is the largest gathering of Renault Spiders!! Man i love that car!

[Slicks]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

hey DOUGHHEAD grow up and ABSORB some information rather than just knee-JERK reactions

You wanted to compare only power and volume of the engine - remember the BIG argument about hp/l beign irrelevant ? So how come you NOW want capacity taken into account ? The 3litre V6 was matchign the power and torque

You've just made yourself look silly again by NOT READING

I want you to notice how you sounded:
"The engine is SMALLER than the LS1 AND it is a OHC design"
"oh LOOK, it is SMALLER.
But, WAIT it can't be it is a DOHC"
"it must weigh LOTS then"
"See now we can compare like with like and NOT some 25 year old design "
Tell me now, who is "jerking the knee?"
Dont try an tell me you were not trying to be a smart ass.
You were NOT comparing like to like, you were comparing a race engine with 6 cylinders to a street engine with 8 cylinders.

Yep, it's a race version and with RACE engines you dont' strip when they NEED overhaul, you strip to judge what MIGHT break "soon". So it's not quite as bad as it seems.
The A610 and Atlantique have NO lsited mileage for engine strip downs. So the 250-450 bhp ranges of THOSE engines isn't in question.
I DO wish tou woudel stop pickign on ONE piece of information provided, ignoring the rest adn then making assumptions. It gets very tirign for the rest of us having to spoon feed you. Compare YOUR responses and Culvers - ther is a adifference - Culvber has clearly WORKED on engines and considered the benefits rather than read 1960s magazines

Im just going through and finding flaws to your "perfect solution." Having to be striped is an inconvenience.
BTW Ive never read a 1960s magazine before.

Yep, 2 INCHES - might even only be an inche for a scavenger system - go BACK and compare the sizes. It was a HELLUVA lot more than 2" difference
Do you even THINK these things therough before posting ????

You want to compare like to like correct? Its funny when you ignore things like this when the argument is in your favor.

Look wil you PLEASE stop beeing a JERK with that knee
YES the race engine was given only because it was the first time I've seen the PRV publicly shown dimensions. After all if I TOLD you the A610 engine was that size you are so narrow minded you'd have called me a liar. AND then I'd have got VERY angry at you (again).

So your saying that the racing engine is the same size as the street engine? Im sorry but I doubt that.

I ALSO pointed out that the BLOCK wa common.
I pointed out the range of powers available.
I pointed out FACTS.
The block was NOT made for racing - you were TOLD THAT
THAT engine is, the A610 isn't, nor the Venturi !!! YOU WERE TOLD THAT !!!
The EGNINE IS a streeet engine and until you can grow up and actually READ and ABSORB before commenting get your sorry ass out of this thread !!!!

The engine that YOU showed was the racing engine, the weight YOU gave was for the racing engine, and the dimensions YOU gave was for the racing engine.

[Slicks]

Originally Posted by henk4

In this thread though I did not mention anything about diesels. This GM V6 engine is placed in run of the mill cars and I got one like that so I think I have every right to talk about it. I even got the Ram-Air version which poured out a whopping 5 BHP more than the standard version. It even had four exhaust pipes, so it was clearly meant to be sporty, but it only produced an irritating drone.

LOL, the exhaust tips split in two at the end, it must be sporty!
There is a difference in looking "sporty" and being sporty.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Suka

Behind the Alpine is the largest gathering of Renault Spiders!! Man i love that car!

Zolder 2004, BIG Alpine meet. The largest collection then
PS this is a fraction.
I'll try and get some pics from mates to post

If Renault had allowed the Spider to be developed it coudl ahve been another Elise
The windscreen-less version was interesting and worked well for wind ( but not rain or stones )

PS: the car park at Zolder - over 600 Alpines present

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by Slicks

I want you to notice how you sounded:
"The engine is SMALLER than the LS1 AND it is a OHC design"
"oh LOOK, it is SMALLER.
But, WAIT it can't be it is a DOHC"
"it must weigh LOTS then"
"See now we can compare like with like and NOT some 25 year old design "
Tell me now, who is "jerking the knee?"
Dont try an tell me you were not trying to be a smart ass.

NONE of it was "knee jerk" - LOOK IT UP PLEASE.

You harp on and on about the size and KEEP quoting the Miata engine and others point it out to you and YOU IGNORE IT.

So I TRIED to use a little bit of sarcasm to MAKE you look at the sizes and to TRY to get you to compare like with like

Clearly it worked as you actually botyered to read it and respond viz.....

You were NOT comparing like to like, you were comparing a race engine with 6 cylinders to a street engine with 8 cylinders.

I was comapring an engine with an output for a given volume of space it used up.
YOU are the one that prefers that over hp/l
NAD I DID POINT OUT that the engine was a modern performacne version of an older design adn that it was oirignally capable of 250bhp and now 400 with no major changes - certainly NOT to the level of the SODEMO engine.
At least you are now aware of smaller engiens with COMPARABLE output and YES I had to "play a trick" with a race engine to get you to read.
BUT in the past you don't read things others say and DEMAND proff. I coudlnt'have said my A610 engine is smaller than the LS1 as you'd have said I was lying and so I chanced upon theat engine with dimensinos and posted it.

Im just going through and finding flaws to your "perfect solution." Having to be striped is an inconvenience.
BTW Ive never read a 1960s magazine before.

Funny as most of your concepts of what is involved in engines dates from then
I NEVER said it was a "perfect solution" !!!
I said it was "THE solution for the A610", WHY are you lying to make your argument sound plausible ??
BTW, by now you'll have read that the A610 has NO mileage agaisnt it for requireing a strip-down !!

You want to compare like to like correct? Its funny when you ignore things like this when the argument is in your favor.

Clearly you didnt' engage brain before letting the fingers loose on the keyboard
IF you only want to compare like with like, then WHY were you comparing with an I4 ?
I added the extra 2" to give an INDICATION of what like-for-liek might be.
Equally you coudl lengthen the block by 1/3 to give a like-for-lie comparison IF the engine was a V8. IT STILL WORKS OUT SMALLER THAN THE LS1.
It's the preposterous stance you take on the LS1 and it's size by ONLY comparing it against a known large cast block and NOT taking on-board that there are other alternatives.
Others do, I've already acknowledged the benefits of the LS1 and others you've posted. Unliek others - see Culver - you seem incapable of actually absorbing, considering and responding.
YOU only seem to knee-jerk and repeat the same twaddle

So here was presented an OHC engine which is smaller than the LS1 and lighter. YOU seem to be the only person envountered who thinks the LS1 is the smallest goign. I think maybe you've been sitting to close to the exhuast funes

So your saying that the racing engine is the same size as the street engine? Im sorry but I doubt that.

Tell me why and we can discuss.
Tell me WHAT on a street engine MUST be bigger than on a race engine ?

The engine that YOU showed was the racing engine, the weight YOU gave was for the racing engine, and the dimensions YOU gave was for the racing engine.

Granted, BASED on an engine block shared amongst a number of vendors.
At best you drop the moving parts weight on race version - eg lighter pistons, rods. But often lose it again with dry sump, heavier rockers and journals. Typically you can get about 25% of that mass down. NOT a big difference

The purpose was to give some numbers to work on as it was BASED around a standard engine - unlike for example an Illmor F1 engine So it would be comparable to an LS1 crate race engine versus stock LS1.

PLEASE read and consdier before "knee jerk" and learn from the dialogue Culver and I are having. I've learned more from him about the setup and he from me than we seem to achieve, I've not changed MY style, perhaps a lesson for both ??

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Slicks

LOL, the exhaust tips split in two at the end, it must be sporty!
There is a difference in looking "sporty" and being sporty.

Thank you for pointing that out to me. I really thought I had a sportscar, I will sue Hertz now.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

I'll try and get some pics from mates to post

don't forget to also show the A110, powered by a Push Rod engine

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by henk4

don't forget to also show the A110, powered by a Push Rod engine

Do you want the bent rod pics too