How do you increase Torque?

[SlickHolden]

Originally Posted by BradG

I'm just trying to enlighten people on this thread that this debate was settled long ago (late 1600's).

I know but you know time we love to change things from the past

[revetec]

Here is something you can all do....

Do this on a normally aspirated car (Turbo's make it a bit harder to feel as the boost isn't always a constant).

Drive your car and feel the acceleration. Note at what RPM you feel the most acceleration at. Look at your dyno graph (if you have one) and compare your best acceleration feel to the graph. I guaranty it won't be at peak power, rather than close to peak torque.

Try it.

My car feels most powerful at 4,700rpm and this is the point where I have maximum torque. Rev the engine higher and produce more power, but the engine feels weaker and weaker as the revs rise.

Now tell me that torque is not all important. The "G force" graph posted by "Slicks" is a very accurate way of proving it.

[revetec]

Originally Posted by henk4

you me to rev until the engine hits the rev limiter? What do we need the loud music for? So that we cannot hear the torque?????

BTW: You cannot hear power either. You can hear engine and exhaust noise, especially near the rev limiter.

Does everyone know what valve bounce sounds like and does everyone know that valves are bouncing about 500rpm before you hear it? You can actually see this with a BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) test by graphing cylinder pressure while the engine is operating. BMEP is a great test. You can see valve timing and bounce issues as well as ignition and combustion efficiencies. You can also work out your combustion verses mechanical efficiencies. Very cool to play around with.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by revetec

BTW: You cannot hear power either. You hear engine and exhaust noise, especially near the rev limiter. Does everyone know what valve bounce sounds like? Did you know that valves are bouncing about 500rpm before you hear it?

I have a diesel, it shuts off well in advance

btw, I should have added a torquey diesel, but that appears to be irrelevant in the eyes of some people these days...

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by revetec

Here is something you can all do....

Do this on a normally aspirated car (Turbo's make it a bit harder to feel as the boost isn't always a constant).

Drive your car and feel the acceleration. Note at what RPM you feel the most acceleration at. Look at your dyno graph (if you have one) and compare your best acceleration feel to the graph. I guaranty it won't be at peak power, rather than close to peak torque.

Try it.

My car feels most powerful at 4,700rpm and this is the point where I have maximum torque. Rev the engine higher and produce more power, but the engine feels weaker and weaker as the revs rise.

Now tell me that torque is not all important. The "G force" graph posted by "Slicks" is a very accurate way of proving it.

You are correct that the greatest rate of acceleration in any given gear is greatest at peak torque. This follows the theory because at that point the engine is producing the most power per rpm and is therefor producing the greatest amount of power per given speed, hence the best rate of acceleration is there.

However if we where driving identicle cars at 40km/h in 2nd gear and you decide that you are going to shift to the next gear just after peak torque and I decide that I will hang on and shift up just after peak power. Who do you think is going to get to 150km/h first?

It would be me

Also The argument is not about whether A=F/M still holds true (of course it does) the arguement is about what the F in the equation actually is. And about how to accelerate as fast as possible in a car. What everyone who supports the "Torque is best" idea is misunderstanding is that Power is simply torque in motion.

Dynameters measure power directly as they measure the torque produced at a given rpm... which is power.

Power accelerates you.

And finally for the best acceleration to any given speed it is best to hold the engine at peak power.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Dynameters measure power directly as they measure the torque produced at a given rpm... which is power.

so everything is solved now. Torque is power and the debate is over. Can we now freely talk about having a torquey engine or do we still have to watch the colour of our neck?

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by revetec

BTW: You cannot hear power either. You can hear engine and exhaust noise, especially near the rev limiter.

Does everyone know what valve bounce sounds like and does everyone know that valves are bouncing about 500rpm before you hear it? You can actually see this with a BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) test by graphing cylinder pressure while the engine is operating. BMEP is a great test. You can see valve timing and bounce issues as well as ignition and combustion efficiencies. You can also work out your combustion verses mechanical efficiencies. Very cool to play around with.

I have already pointed out that the loud music was to keep you from using your sense of hearing to judge when to shift.

If you are talking about valve bounce as in when the valve stem loses contact with the cam (normally during the peak open to closing phase) then I do know what that sounds like on certain engines. BTW what do you mean that valves are bouncing by 500rpm? how much? Can you say this about every engine or is that a generalisation?

I am interested in what you use to measure cylinder pressure while the engine is running.

Agreed BMEP is definately cool

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by henk4

so everything is solved now. Torque is power and the debate is over. Can we now freely talk about having a torquey engine or do we still have to watch the colour of our neck?

NO!!!! you have that backwards!

Power is torque in motion.

Torque is only torque, no power involved.

Also about the "Torquey engine" thing it depends on what you mean.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

NO!!!! you have that backwards!

Power is torque in motion.

Torque is only torque, no power involved.

Also about the "Torquey engine" thing it depends on what you mean.

I am just quoting you and you say that I am wrong.....

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by henk4

I am just quoting you and you say that I am wrong.....

You missquoted me...

I never said torque is power. I said torque measured at any given rpm is actually measuring power. How can you fail to see the difference?

Power is torque in motion

torque is torque.

torque is not power.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

I said torque measured at any given rpm is actually measuring power.

I never said that torque in an engine existed when it was not running.....

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by henk4

I never said that torque in an engine existed when it was not running.....

I am not quite sure why you said that but...

Torque is an instantaneous force, ie no movement, no time componant.

[Old Sage]

Originally Posted by hightower99

And finally for the best acceleration to any given speed it is best to hold the engine at peak power.

The last time I tried that, I nearly ended up on the sidewalk.

[SlickHolden]

Originally Posted by revetec

Here is something you can all do....

Do this on a normally aspirated car (Turbo's make it a bit harder to feel as the boost isn't always a constant).

Drive your car and feel the acceleration. Note at what RPM you feel the most acceleration at. Look at your dyno graph (if you have one) and compare your best acceleration feel to the graph. I guaranty it won't be at peak power, rather than close to peak torque.

Try it.

My car feels most powerful at 4,700rpm and this is the point where I have maximum torque. Rev the engine higher and produce more power, but the engine feels weaker and weaker as the revs rise.

Now tell me that torque is not all important. The "G force" graph posted by "Slicks" is a very accurate way of proving it.

Isnt that what we have been trying to tell him to we are blue in the face

Originally Posted by hightower99

You are correct that the greatest rate of acceleration in any given gear is greatest at peak torque. This follows the theory because at that point the engine is producing the most power per rpm and is therefor producing the greatest amount of power per given speed, hence the best rate of acceleration is there.

However if we where driving identicle cars at 40km/h in 2nd gear and you decide that you are going to shift to the next gear just after peak torque and I decide that I will hang on and shift up just after peak power. Who do you think is going to get to 150km/h first?

It would be me

Your Weird, You have been through this whole post telling people they are wrong and you just contradicted yourself big time.
When i said i have the greatest acceleration in the torque area, And i found this out by a dyno that proved it, You said Wrong!..
But as long as you say fastest acceleration is in the peak torque area it's fine it's right.

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Your Weird, You have been through this whole post telling people they are wrong and you just contradicted yourself big time.
When i said i have the greatest acceleration in the torque area, And i found this out by a dyno that proved it, You said Wrong!..
But as long as you say fastest acceleration is in the peak torque area it's fine it's right.

Let me say this again:

Best rate of acceleration (I.e. 5m/s*s as opposed to 3m/s*s) happens at peak torque. Note that this is only where the highest rate of acceleration happens.

For best acceleration (i.e. 0-100km/h in 5 seconds as opposed to taking 8 seconds for same) happens at peak power.

So no I did not contradict myself at all.