How do you increase Torque?

[Slicks]

Originally Posted by hightower99

I do type the odd typo here and there but:

Torque is static and can't be felt (if you think so please provide an example)
Power is simply the rate at which you can do work. You can feel when work is being done, right? You have an internal sense of time and so you can feel the difference between work that is done fast (like putting your hand on a hot stove top) as opposed to work being done slowly (like putting your hand on a massive tank of slightly warm water).

Do you agree torque is a twisting force? Your tires, they turn no? When your tires turn (assuming we get traction) what you feel is the car pushing you from that twisting force that the tires are putting to the ground.

I think your just going in circles and getting confused.
Lets take a simple example: two identical cars, same gears, both have are making the same flat torque curve from idle to redline. But one of them revs 1000RPMs higher lets say. Yes, that other car is making more hp, and will be quicker, but lets analyze whats happening. When the car A, the one with 1000RPMs shorter, gets to redline and switches gears, car B will still be in a gear lower, putting more torque to the ground and therefore accelerating harder.
What if we geared them differently, car B will be geared now to match the top speed of car A. Car B pulls harder now because the with shorter gearing its putting more torque to the ground. Can you understand this?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Power is simply the rate at which you can do work.

correct....you need a certain amount of power to propel a car AT 120 mph (and keep it going)....and you need a certain amount of torque to get it there.....

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by Slicks

Because your logic is way off, if you have driven a car before, you would have noticed that it accelerates on the torque curve.
If what your saying is true, and a car accelerates according to the hp curve, then it would be very noticable how hard a car pulls at 2000RPMs, opposed to say 6000RPMS where hp would be trippled(lets assume a flat torque curve from 2000-6000RPMs). The car would pull three times harder, thats what your saying right? Wouldnt that be VERY noticable?

Wrong acceleration is affected by velocity aswell. So if you make triple the power at triple the speed you will be accelerating at 1/3 the rate you started at. Thats what you feel in the car.

Originally Posted by Slicks

Did YOU actually look at them? Am I going to have to spoon feed you this one?
Lets start here:
http://www.wahiduddin.net/race/dynotest.htm
Now actually LOOK at the graphs. Do you agree that G forces are a fair measure for how hard the car is accelerating?
Lets take a look at the rear wheel thrust (torque) graph compared to the g-forces in acceleratoin graph, do you not see a direct relation? Do you want me to draw it out for you?

Here I drew it for you:
this is the image of the thrust curves for each gear. Notice that the peak thrust is highlighted making it very apparent at what speed each gears max thrust occurs. Notice also that the peak values start as narrow peaks but flatten out as the gears are changed.

Here is the Gs when accelerating:
the black lines are when the gear is changed tot he next, the red lines mark the points of max acceleration in each gear.

What! look at that! the speeds for peak thrust and peak Gs doesn't match at all! notice also that the peak acceleration is held for a shorter time in the lower gears where there is a wide plateu of peak thrust.

Brilliant so your theory is blasted out of the water as this comparison shows that acceleration is highly dependant on velocity and that torque alone didn't tell you anything about how it would accelerate.

Originally Posted by Slicks

Sorry but that makes no sense.
PLEASE find me ANY article or proof that a car accelerates on its hp curve. Find a graph like you said you would.

How doesn't it make sense? it is a simple idea. Each gear has a speed range. Imagine a 1st gear that goes from 0 to 50km/h and a 2nd gear that goes from 0 to 80km/h it is now obvious why with the same power available it would still take longer to accelerate in 2nd gear.

Originally Posted by Slicks

Do you agree torque is a twisting force? Your tires, they turn no? When your tires turn (assuming we get traction) what you feel is the car pushing you from that twisting force that the tires are putting to the ground.

Yes torque is a twisting force, Yes tires turn, What I feel is my body's inertia against the acceleration of the car caused by power.

Originally Posted by henk4

correct....you need a certain amount of power to propel a car AT 120 mph (and keep it going)....and you need a certain amount of torque to get it there.....

Ok if you are right tell me how much torque does it take to make a 1000kg car go to 120mph in 12 seconds ? If you can't answer then you are wrong and your lack of answer will be admitting that fact.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Ok if you are right tell me how much torque does it take to make a 1000kg car go to 120mph in 12 seconds ? If you can't answer then you are wrong and your lack of answer will be admitting that fact.

Best. Logic. Ever. Also exceptionally hypocritical.

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen

Best. Logic. Ever. Also exceptionally hypocritical.

Damn straight! If he can't answer such a simple question then he shouldn't support the idea because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Damn straight! If he can't answer such a simple question then he shouldn't support the idea because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

thank you for your constructive approach....I am sure you can now also read the whole message that 2nd Class citizen posted

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by henk4

thank you for your constructive approach....I am sure you can now also read the whole message that 2nd Class citizen posted

I did catch it before I quoted it. I quoted it because my post was to point out that it isn't hypocritical. If you don't know what you are talking about then you shouldn't support the idea. If you do I want to get an answer from you.

simple.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

I did catch it before I quoted it. I quoted it because my post was to point out that it isn't hypocritical. If you don't know what you are talking about then you shouldn't support the idea. If you do I want to get an answer from you.

simple.

i'll give you the classic Rolls Royce answer "enough"

[Cyco]

Look at that! A graph showing something Mr hightower99 disagrees with, but he uses it as supportive evidence - this is unusual

Originally Posted by hightower99

What! look at that! the speeds for peak thrust and peak Gs doesn't match at all!

If you look more closely they match pretty much exactly.

Originally Posted by hightower99

notice also that the peak acceleration is held for a shorter time in the lower gears where there is a wide plateu of peak thrust.

Are you on a different planet to the rest of us? The peak thrust gets wider the higher the gear - as shown in YOUR graph.

Peak thrust in 1st gear is spread over ~2m/h. Peak thrust in 5th gear is over ~11m/h.

Obviously much wider in the lower gears........

Originally Posted by hightower99

Brilliant so your theory is blasted out of the water as this comparison shows that acceleration is highly dependant on velocity and that torque alone didn't tell you anything about how it would accelerate.

What it also shows is that acceleration is inversely proportional to horsepower.

ie As horsepower climbs in the rev range acceleration drops off.

Seeing as torque levels are much more consistent across the rev range than if your theory that acceleration is velocity dependant would make more sense that one that has a power increase to go with a velocity increase.

[SlickHolden]

Wasn't this thread about how to increase torque?

Easy way blow it .

[henk4]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Wasn't this thread about how to increase torque?

Easy way blow it .

this is how Hightower joined the debate


"Power does everything, from accelerating to maintaining top speed. Torque is simply a factor involved and getting hot under the collar about peak torque figures is ridiculous at best." (see post 41#)...

not everybody fully agreed

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by Cyco

Are you on a different planet to the rest of us? The peak thrust gets wider the higher the gear - as shown in YOUR graph.

Peak thrust in 1st gear is spread over ~2m/h. Peak thrust in 5th gear is over ~11m/h.

Relax when I said lower gears I was referring to the ratio which in your terms would be the higher gears.

Originally Posted by Cyco

What it also shows is that acceleration is inversely proportional to horsepower.

ie As horsepower climbs in the rev range acceleration drops off.

Seeing as torque levels are much more consistent across the rev range than if your theory that acceleration is velocity dependant would make more sense that one that has a power increase to go with a velocity increase.

Umm so you think that this is what the acceleration would look like if the energy needed to maintain acceleration goes up exponentially and the input is relatively flat? I think not. An increase in input is needed to achieve even the acceleration rates just before gear changes.

Originally Posted by henk4

i'll give you the classic Rolls Royce answer "enough"

So you have no idea what you are talking about... fine.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by hightower99

.


So you have no idea what you are talking about... fine.

if you give me the power and the revs it can be calculated....(I suppose you also want to do the experiment under vacuum circumstances because we do not want air resistance do we?).

[Slicks]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Wrong acceleration is affected by velocity aswell. So if you make triple the power at triple the speed you will be accelerating at 1/3 the rate you started at. Thats what you feel in the car.

So are you saying that given the same example, at 6000RPMs it would be pulling 1/3rd as hard than at 2000RPMs? Again wouldnt that be VERY noticable?

Here I drew it for you: http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/763...correctpv9.gif
this is the image of the thrust curves for each gear. Notice that the peak thrust is highlighted making it very apparent at what speed each gears max thrust occurs. Notice also that the peak values start as narrow peaks but flatten out as the gears are changed.

Here is the Gs when accelerating: http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/2...correcttb6.gif
the black lines are when the gear is changed tot he next, the red lines mark the points of max acceleration in each gear.

What! look at that! the speeds for peak thrust and peak Gs doesn't match at all! notice also that the peak acceleration is held for a shorter time in the lower gears where there is a wide plateu of peak thrust.

Brilliant so your theory is blasted out of the water as this comparison shows that acceleration is highly dependant on velocity and that torque alone didn't tell you anything about how it would accelerate.

Youve got to be kidding me...
Look I layed the torque to the wheels graph over the G's graph:

What do you know, they match up PERFECTLY!
If your acceleration followed the hp curve, the Gs graph would look like this:

How doesn't it make sense? it is a simple idea. Each gear has a speed range. Imagine a 1st gear that goes from 0 to 50km/h and a 2nd gear that goes from 0 to 80km/h it is now obvious why with the same power available it would still take longer to accelerate in 2nd gear.

Yes torque is a twisting force, Yes tires turn, What I feel is my body's inertia against the acceleration of the car caused by power.

So its just a coincidence that torque changes with gears and hp doesnt, while your car pulls harder with more wheel torque(in lower gears)?
Serisously I can tell you dont drive.
Like I said in the previous post, find me an article written by a professional or test done to prove what your saying, Ive already provided more than enough proof.

Ok if you are right tell me how much torque does it take to make a 1000kg car go to 120mph in 12 seconds ? If you can't answer then you are wrong and your lack of answer will be admitting that fact.

Thats highly dependant on gearing, you know, those things that multiply TORQUE?

[Slicks]

Is everyone just wrong?
http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=46

Hmm, Telsa, a car manufacturer, are they wrong?
http://www.teslamotors.com/performan...p?js_enabled=1
Notice: "delivers constant acceleration up to 6000RPMs" ...And the torque curve is flat there... But if hp moves the car, the acceleration wouldnt be constant, following the flat torque curve...