Drifting vs. Power-sliding

[nota]

Originally Posted by Kooper

Probably the latter.

So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein none of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?

Sorry, I don't have any good examples to illustrate ATM except for these small pics which depict four wheel drifts, with under & oversteer (Alfa GTV, Monaro 350, Mustang)

[Kooper]

Originally Posted by nota

So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein none of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?

Sorry, I don't have any good examples to illustrate ATM except for these small pics which depict four wheel drifts, with under & oversteer (Alfa GTV, Monaro 350, Mustang)

Seems more or less accurate. I know they used a Porsche 911 as an example in the article. Hold on, I'll try to get some pics as well...

[whiteballz]

so if drifting is the wheels having grip and producing slide while maintaining power, what the hell are they doing in the D1 championships??

[Kooper]

Originally Posted by whiteballz

so if drifting is the wheels having grip and producing slide while maintaining power, what the hell are they doing in the D1 championships??

Unfortunately I don't watch D1 championships, so you tell me?

[whiteballz]

http://tunertrader.vidiac.com/search...2bfc1f41c6.htm

in car, this guys front wheels have grip, rears have little to none at all, the rear is swinging around by using the throttle, steering inputs, and momentum of original power.

i fail to see how the tyres deforming will maintain grip and keep the car accelerating if the wheels are pointing inside the corner @ 90 degrees??

[Kooper]

Originally Posted by whiteballz

http://tunertrader.vidiac.com/search...2bfc1f41c6.htm

in car, this guys front wheels have grip, rears have little to none at all, the rear is swinging around by using the throttle, steering inputs, and momentum of original power.

i fail to see how the tyres deforming will maintain grip and keep the car accelerating if the wheels are pointing inside the corner @ 90 degrees??

That's just it though, we're not talking 90 degrees here. I don't know of any tyre that would still have grip at a 90 degree sideways movement either...

We're talking a difference in angle that would not break the tyres' grip, and obviously that depends on a great deal of factors. Tyre make, profile, compound etc. EDIT: don't forget pressure either.

[whiteballz]

oh ok i mis understood the earlier point, what i think the trouble with the way your describing is the drift in the original term of the matter, when it was still used in racing by the drift god, who raced an underpowered AE86 in japan, he found he was faster in corners then most others, but once the straights appeared he just wasnt able to keep up with the S13's and 180's, also ceffy's 300's etc etc. he found it quicker to slide abit through some corners to maintain revs and momentum to be able to overtake on the corners.

i think thats what your describing, maintaining grip whilst still trying to maintain speed.

i think everyone else now is viewing "drift" and the term drift, to the evloution of that original style, which is drift as we know it as the sport.

[Kooper]

Yeah... still not sure we're quite on the same page.

[Kooper]

Originally Posted by nota

So a deliberately achieved & controlled 'steady state' cornering stance wherein none of the wheels (neither front OR rear) are pointing in the vehicle's true direction of travel?

This is hard to explain and hard to understand, but if what you say here is what I think you said, then I think you and I are on the same page. (If that makes sense at all)

[taz_rocks_miami]

I found some links on different drifting techniques. Interesting to say the least:

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te.../shiftlock.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...brakedrift.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...s/dirtdrop.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...feintdrift.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te.../jumpdrift.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...akingdrift.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...anseidrift.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te.../longslide.htm

http://www.driftsession.com/drift_te...ayingdrift.htm

[nota]

Originally Posted by Kooper

This is hard to explain and hard to understand, but if what you say here is what I think you said, then I think you and I are on the same page. (If that makes sense at all)

I think we might be ..

For example this pic which is a somewhat clearer example; note the wheel angles of this '71 Falcon GT-HO production-sedan in relation to its true direction of travel. It is exhibiting both power understeer & power oversteer .. at the same time. Having myself witnessed drivers making these cars do this all the way around a corner, this car is in a true four wheel drift imho

http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/ite....html?cache=no

Also 4W-drifting was the little Alfa GTV in my previous pic, because although that car is tail-sliding under corrective opposite lock, its front wheels are also sliding (almost a reverse understeer situation, I guess) and thus it doesn't require more steering correction to both reflect and countersteer towards the vehicle's true direction of travel - so again it's in a four wheel drift

Or you could imagine a car which is in a similar tail-out sliding stance to the GT-HO (nose pointing inward of the apex) except that its front wheels might have zero steering lock applied (ie front wheels pointing straight ahead). But in effect it would be understeering (as well as oversteering) because, although there is no steering input, the vehicle's true direction of travel does not follow where the front (or rear) wheels are pointing, and both front and rear axles are sliding outwards

I agree it can be a bit challenging to describe clearly in words, at least for me in a quick post. Perhaps four wheel drifting could be quantified as a vehicle being in a controlled (usually power-on) circumstance wherein all four tyres are exhibiting a significant slip-angle in relation to said vehicle's true & intended direction of travel down the roadway?

[Kooper]

Originally Posted by nota

I think we might be ..

I think that what you're thinking is right!

I've got the magazine in my hands, just have to find someone with a scanner now.

It seems I might have been incorrect by saying drifting and power-sliding isn't the same thing. Not sure at this point to be honest. Maybe someone else can clear things up after I submitted the article.

[hightower99]

To be able to get this thing finished everyone should agree to the meaning of certain terms.

To start I will bring up Grip, Traction, Slip, and Sliding.

Now this is what I believe they mean:

Grip: When a wheel is not slipping or sliding at all (no smoke) it has grip, although during cornering a slip-angle may be present (ie the wheel appears to be pointing in a different direction then it is traveling but there is still no smoke or screeching). A tire will run out of grip long before it runs out of traction. F1 however is special because the tires are designed so that the grip of the tires continues right up to the limit of traction.

Traction: Used to describe the limits of force transmission between the tire and the ground. For example most tires produce the most traction for acceleration when they are slipping slightly, producing very little smoke (chirping). Also during cornering the very limit of traction will be when the tire is slightly slipping. When you pass the limit of traction any additional force is wasted and the current force allowed is not the same as when at the limit (alot less so normally).

Slip: When a tire slips it produces small amounts of smoke. Slipping is what happens when a tire is right at it's maximum traction level.

Slide: When you exceed the traction limit of a tire you slide, losing traction and control. Burnouts are an example of sliding during pure acceleration.

D1 championship slides the rear tires to produce their drift, while the front tires grip and are well within their traction limits.

Real drifting that allows you to drive the fastest is about maintaining all 4 tires at their limit of traction (hence alittle slipping and little smoke). The mastery is combining cornering and acceleration and deceleration forces without passing the limit of traction, the closer you get the faster you are.

Now in my mind power sliding is using the force generated by the engine to exceed the tractive limits of the back tires so that the car exhibits oversteer, which needs to be maintained and controled by counter steering and throttle control.

D1 does this but takes it to another level where they maintain the powerslide through a series of corners. Hence D1 is actually glorified extreme powersliding, not drifting. However rally racing where cars take corners with oversteer is not powersliding, it is force vectoring. Rally racers need to get the car into oversteer because on loose ground (which allows low levels of grip and traction) you need to corner by using the radial force retaining abilities of the tires instead of the axial.

[chayson roberts]

everybody go to google video and type in drifting in the search bar

[MrKipling]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Grip: When a wheel is not slipping or sliding at all (no smoke) it has grip

Grip is simply a measure of how much traction you have, not really a force in its own right.

Originally Posted by hightower99

although during cornering a slip-angle may be present

Which is caused by flex in the sidewalls when the grip of the tyre exceeds the possible turning moment. It doesn't mean that the tyre is slipping across the surface of the tarmac.

Originally Posted by hightower99

F1 however is special because the tires are designed so that the grip of the tires continues right up to the limit of traction.

I guess you're refering to the 'snappiness' of F1 cars i.e. their tendancy to spin at the point they break traction? That's because of the set up trade-off between the width of the line between smokey tyres and a crash, and ultimate cornering speed. The narrower the line, the higher the cornering speed - F1 cars have no need to move around so, through very stiff suspension and so-on, that line can be atom-thin. The reliance on aerodynamic grip also has a huge impact: if the car is not moving straight into its direction of travel, none of the wings will be working and you'll lose enormous amounts of grip in a split second - spin-a-rama.

Originally Posted by hightower99

Traction: Used to describe the limits of force transmission between the tire and the ground. For example most tires produce the most traction for acceleration when they are slipping slightly, producing very little smoke (chirping).

That depends on the type of power delivery the engine provides relative to the grip level of the tyres (torque vs power for example), weight distribution, driveshaft wind-up, tyre type, weather conditions etc etc. If you try that chirping technique in a 911, you stand a good chance of wasting tenths to axle tramp.

Originally Posted by hightower99

Also during cornering the very limit of traction will be when the tire is slightly slipping.

On road tyres, yes.

Originally Posted by hightower99

Slip: When a tire slips it produces small amounts of smoke. Slipping is what happens when a tire is right at it's maximum traction level.

Depends on the tyre, the car and the purpose, if by 'maximum traction' you mean 'going as fast as you can go'

Originally Posted by hightower99

However rally racing where cars take corners with oversteer is not powersliding, it is force vectoring. Rally racers need to get the car into oversteer because on loose ground (which allows low levels of grip and traction) you need to corner by using the radial force retaining abilities of the tires instead of the axial.

Rally cars don't really oversteer though, you only ever see the back trying to overtake the front during hairpins. The trick to rally driving is balancing the throttle that's taking you forward via the four wheels against the what has always been known (long before D1) as a four-wheel drift, to create an arc from entry to apex to exit. In rallying all four wheels are moving across the surface towards the outside of the corner - oversteer is when only the back of the car has those tendencies.