Pattakon engine.....legitimate alternative or just another fly-by-night

[lightweight]

This system has been publicized on the press
i have a pdf of the magazine which I can post

Of course it's in Greek, but it will be a proof.

It's no hoax. The mag says that the development was made on a Renault 19 Energy (1989 model) and the carbon monoxode emissions were cut down to 1/40th (from 1,8% down to 0,05% - even on a cold start they never went above 0,1, e reduction down to 1/20).

The idle was down to 350 rpm. There is even a possibility to de-activate some cylinders.

[drakkie]

Originally Posted by lightweight

This system has been publicized on the press
i have a pdf of the magazine which I can post

Of course it's in Greek, but it will be a proof

Bring it on, i can understand a little bit of modern greek. My ancient greek is much better though translating programmes do the rest.

[lightweight]

Originally Posted by drakkie

Bring it on, i can understand a little bit of modern greek. My ancient greek is much better though translating programmes do the rest.

Εντάξει, but my connection is 56K and the pdf must be 20-30 MB.

Maybe I will visit an Internet cafe or sth, so it might take a day or two. Don't be impatient plz

[Matra et Alpine]

The VVA is good, but compared with what the variable compression from Volvo is capable of achieving is still a minor improvement on old technology.

[revetec]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

Beee-have !!!
No need to act like others.
Please remain professional. Benefits the discussion AND your image
Thanks

If I think it is good...I will say it is good.
If I think it is bad....I will say that it is bad.
If I think it is funny....I will laugh.

Go look at the flying machine on their website. If in anyway you find that concept anything but funny....I'll hold no respect for you.

[revetec]

Originally Posted by manolis

Spot on the sentence “Companies like this just burn investors money without having any prospect of getting an engine to perform or get to production.”


And here is my reply:

Originally Posted by manolis
I declare publicly today, to any one of pattakon’s investors to brink me their shares and I will buy them - immediately - a million times their initial price in US dollars (i.e. for each dollar the investor – any investor – gave, he will take a million dollars in return)."

My reply simply says to Revetec: Look who is talking…

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Offering to buy shares in your own families company at an inflated price is funny. So how much money has your company raised and burned to date, and has your company returned anything yet? Has your company signed any solid agreements? How long has the company been around? Is it a private company or listed on the stock exchange? How many shareholders do you have (Only the ones that paid for their shares, outside your family and friends, and ones given away for services like accountants and solicitors)? How much did they paid for the shares?

Please note that a private company can say their shares and technology are worth anything. Patents maybe valued, but the valuers often can't tell the value until it is into the marketplace, so they are often valued at their cost. This fact often gives a misrepresentation of the actual value of the company, as the valuers cannot tell whether the technology is any good. The actual value can be higher or lower.

A public listed company is openly market driven and the share price gives a better idea of a company's value.

In my opinion, expenditure on a patent of a flying machine (with the design shown) would give it a value due to costs incurred from securing the intellectual property. This doesn't really mean it is worth anything (it could be...it is only my opinion). If I was a shareholder, I would question the expense laid out for such a design, due to the safety and marketability of this product. For this reason I assume that this company is a private one and don't have to account themselves to the shareholders.

[revetec]

As a note: I do not wish to make any negative comments on the variable valve timing system as it must work. How efficiently I don't know. It is the other designs on their website like the greco engine which clearly shows the shafts with sections that have about 80% of the material machined out, at an offset to allow clearence, which may fail under operation. The bearings seem to small to handle load. The flying machine? The piston acceleration of the pull rod engine? The strength and deflection of the tabs actuating the valves on the desmo valve design. The cams slicing through the shafts of the short stroke engine animation with two shafts. The manufacturing of the shafts of the multi cylinder greco engine: How are you going to machine or grind the concave cam face?

I have more questions but I think these are a good start.
I'm not having a go at you, just need these addressed so I can be satisfied that the engine can be built and work. I look forward to your positive responses.

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by revetec

If I think it is good...I will say it is good.
If I think it is bad....I will say that it is bad.
If I think it is funny....I will laugh.

Kust reminding that childish posts can create an image of being childish.
I've been trygin to clean up this and the revetec so we can get back to and keep on reasonable technical discussion.

Go look at the flying machine on their website. If in anyway you find that concept anything but funny....I'll hold no respect for you.

Of course it got a laugh. BUT it might work, just impractical and a guaranted huge litigation generater The use of the dual rotors directly driven is neat and I'd buy one to behead my enemies !!!!

[manolis]

Initially I was accused for lack of courage to present Pattakon’s projects in an open forums (this specific thread was opened not by me, but to challenge me) and now I am accused for “spending too much time” in open forums to present Pattakon’s projects.
Very fair and honest.

I was also accused for “begging” desperately people to drive Pattakon’s prototypes.
I only challenged them. And the ultimate challenge is “You don’t believe it? Come to check by yourself”.
And the fact is that nobody accepted the challenge.
If you find one case (one is enough) where somebody accepted the challenge and Pattakon “stepped back”, write it down.
I was driving the first VVA prototype car on the roads of Athens and the reply from the moderator of “TOV” (the temple of VTEC) “strictly technical” forums was “you tell lies, there is no prototype at all”. My “begging” and “desperate” reply was (some three years ago): “Come in Athens to see and drive the car, to video it and to present it to your forum members. In case there is no car I will pay for your 1st class airplane tickets and your Hotel”.



Don’t get the articles in magazines and the presentations in TV as THE truth.
In many cases it is a good trap for those who cannot judge by themselves. Think how many lost their money exactly this way.
Don’t take magazines and TV as more reliable than your thinking power and reasoning.
Andy Grove, chairman of Intel : “Base knowledge on facts and analysis rather than on what everybody knows. When everybody knows that something is so, nobody knows nothing.”
The journalist / reporter must have the proper background / experience. And he must spent a lot of time examining and investigating the “case”. Otherwise the article / presentation is far from being a “reference point”.
The presentations of Pattakon’s projects in magazines (in and out of Greece) maybe be excellent. So what? What makes you believe they say the truth? Ignore them and judge by your own.
What you really need is info.
The info provided by Pattakon web site is so vast and complete (most animations relevant to Pattakon’s VVA and other projects are actually made by the “blueprint” CAD drawings used in the machine shop) that the relevant to cylinder heads technology has all it takes to modify a B16A or B18A Honda cylinder head to Pattakon VVA in a week.
Instead of listening to others, listen to your own mind.




Take a look at the photo
www.pattakon.com/vva/RenaultHonda.jpg

Open also the photo collection
www.pattakon.com/vvar/OnBoard/Assembly.exe (1.8 MB)
It shows, step by step, the modification of the Honda B16A cylinder head.

There is also the Citroen / Peugeot 1600cc version (at www.pattakon.com/vts) head.

There is also the Light Version for Honda VTEC B16A and B18A, not yet presented in the Pattakon web site.

The Honda VTEC were selected because it has the TOP power concentration in its class. 160 PS at 7600 rpm from 1600 cc. The challenge is to improve the champion. Not only in power but also in fuel consumption, exhaust emissions, low revs and partial load operation, idling.
Take a look at the www.pattakon.com/vva/VVA_Idle/VVA_Idle.htm . If you know a car capable of doing something similar, please write. Are the data so good to be true?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[manolis]

Light version of Pattakon VVA on Honda B16 / B18 VTEC engines.

Why light version?
Cheaper.
Easier to apply.
Use of the existing VTEC system for the control of the exhaust valves’ lift and duration .
Soft gas pedal.



The add-on kit includes.

A cylinder head



Four light alloy rocker arms (A) for the intake valves, with their yoke roller bearings (basic rollers plus free rollers)



One intake Control shaft and one Camshaft







A TPS sensor (B) with basis for installation inside the cylinder head



A vacuum pump (D) for brake assistance.





end of part one

[manolis]

part 2


The cylinder head modification includes :
a bearing cut on the aluminum, for the intake control shaft,
two back bearings/supporters between the intake pivot shaft and the control shaft,
a hole/basis for the vacuum pump (D) and the relevant piping,



a basis for the TPS,
a stop – cut on the aluminum – for the maximum control shaft rotation angle, i.e. for the maximum permitted intake valve lift,




an adjustable stop (E) – on the intake oiler bar – for the minimum intake control shaft rotation angle,



a support for the gas cable,



a set of idle valves:



The light alloy rocker arms use the original Honda adjusters for the intake valve lash.

The maximum valves’ stroke is over 12 mm. If more than 11 mm intake valve lift is to be used, the intake valve springs must be replaced by other ones.

The original intake pivot shaft is sealed – at its flywheel side – so the VTEC oil is restricted to the exhaust pivot shaft for the
engagement of the high rpm exhaust rocker arms of Honda’s VTEC.



There are no throttle valves at all.
The original plenum is properly modified to a top flow efficiency ITB (independent throttle bodies without any throttle).



Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[revetec]

How do you turn, roll and pitch? Don't say by moving body weight, as you cant get all movements to fly. Thats why a helicopter changes propeller pitch as it rotates and has a tail rotor blade.

What happens if you get engine failure? You can't open a parachute. Where is the fuel tank etc. I know it is a concept but....

Can I come and watch you make the first test flight?

[revetec]

Now let's look at all the greco engine designs. All the shafts have cutouts to allow the engine operated and these are the points of failure under torsional stress. The bearings are too small to handle the loadings (I have checked in my stress analysis software) These are questions I have posed before and although you have posted some nice pictures, you have not answered any of the difficult questions. If the designers were such geniuses as you say they are, why have they posted designs on their website with such obvious faults?

Piston into shaft, bearings too small which will not handle the loads.

Cutouts 80% through shafts which will cause failure on torsional loadings.

In reference to your posted pictures of the cylinder head:
Who does your machining? It looks like it was welded and finished with a hammer drill.

[revetec]

I'm waiting for the PDF article. One question though.....Was it a paid editorial?

When the article is posted, I want to know the reporter, publication and date published.

[Matra et Alpine]

hmmmmm open throttle bodies on teh engine.... now THAT makes a big difference in conjunction with an ECU on what you can achieve.
For comparison have you done all the mods EXCEPT the VVA to an engine and measured it ?

THAT would be the proper way to do an engineering evaluation --- instead of saying come see the car work


oh and on the "whinging" ... you were spouting in a thread about a differnet engine and were asked a number of times to take the promotion elsewhere. You didnt, so another member DID.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...nolis+pattakon <<< check the number of forums THAT turns up ..... the evidence DOES suggest you spedn lots fo time on forums promoting the engine

and finally .... your idea of "details" on the Pattakon web site are a long way away from anything an engineer would consider detailed. There are plenty of cheaply produced animations and pronouncments on advantages but without properly evaluations. The info may exist in Pattakons files, but it ain't on the web site