No blood for oil, no corn for fuel

[LandQuail]

So, the U.S. Congress just passed almost unanimously a bill that would raise the U.S. auto industry-wide average mpg to 35 by 2020.

Also, the bill makes heavy mention of bio-ethanol's usage in coming years. In the U.S., bio-ethanol is almost exclusively made from corn.

It's not sweet corn, like corn on the cob, but the species of corn that we get corn meal and syrup from.

Listen to the Quail, folks, America's insistence on corn-produced fuel is the result of a few heavy-hitting lobbyists in Washington rabbiting away for the financial interests of a handful of corn factory farm owners.

From the lofty viewpoint of the folks in charge of running this country, feeding our machines is equally as important as feeding the populous. Corn meal and corn syrup is a big part of feeding this country and this world.

Using switchgrass, sugarcane or biomass to produce bio-fuel doesn't waste labor and capital investments better used in food production. It is a better source for petroleum alternatives.

Does anybody find a flaw with this argument? Is there something I'm missing here? WTF?

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by LandQuail

Using switchgrass, sugarcane or biomass to produce bio-fuel doesn't waste labor and capital investments better used in food production. It is a better source for petroleum alternatives.

Corn-derived ethanol fuel is also the worst bio-ethanol, providing less than 5% improvement in economy, whilst stuff made from sugarcane is much better (there's apparently a celluloid-based ethanol that's better again but hard to make). And all the South American producers have the stuff just sitting around, but can't get it into the States because of the all protections given to Corn producers.

[LandQuail]

Also, it takes four gallons of water to make a gallon of bio-ethanol from corn. The water is not recoverable, and must pass out of the "refinery" as near-toxic grey water.

And, it goes without mention, wouldn't higher demand for corn-based fuel drive up the cost of whisky?

[clutch-monkey]

i wish they'd use local sugarcane here to make some ethanol, not to replace petrol, merely to supplement it instead of sitting around going bankrupt and all. Making ethanol from an existing, rather important food source is a mistake; making it from sugarcane that really isn't doing much seems like common sense

[LandQuail]

Brilliant punctuation, there, clutch.

Yeah, it really doesn't add up, does it? Unless, of course, you add greed into the equation.

These farmers who stand to profit from corn-based fuel in no way resemble Pa Joad. We're talking big, big money families who measure their farms in square miles rather than acres. They've got domesticated journalists and disillusioned statesmen on the payroll as lobbyists. They speak loudly while carrying their big sticks, and their kind has had a hand in royally ****ing up the last three decades of American policy.

It's hard to keep faith. The likely GOP presidential candidate, Mick Huckabee, is, like the 'Quail, an Arkansan. I've had a few chances to talk to him both professionally and off the record. He's undeniably slick, just like Bill Clinton was, but unlike Bill, he's not got that intangible X-factor that marks him as trustworthy. It's something you have almost to trust your sense of smell to discern...

It's all up in the air in America. Kubla Khan would be a better statesman than our current President, but following the same path of reason, aren't we dangerously vulnerable to hopping merrily out of the frying pan that is the G.W. Bush presidency and into the fire of another inept fool?

Anybody can make themself look good on paper, and one of our motley crew of candidates will have their bite at the Big Burrito, but history is the real judge of nations and the awful pickles their leaders stumble them ass-first into.

Hopefully whoever we get sitting in the Oval Office, in that chair that's probably still got a few dark stains in the cushion from JFK's and Bill Clinton's off-the-clock exploits, will still retain a little sense after their dizzying ride to the top.

[Dino Scuderia]

Anything so politically driven like this is destined to be a flawed and retarted plan.

There is no consumer demand for this fuel. The major oil companies are blending 10% into billions of gallons per year as a PR gig and mandates...all the while kicking and screaming. The ethanol plants are being built by money grabbers bolstered by subsidies.

On the retail end fuel jobbers are blending it because their margins are so thin at retail that they'll do anything to make a few pennies per gallon. Of course that fluctuates but depending on barrel price and ethanol price they can make up to seven cents per gallon on regular grade where normally it's 2-3 cents if they're lucky. As soon as the ethanol market gets in balance with crude like it did before and the margins crumble jobbers will not fool with it.

Ethanol was the buzz in the 80's and there were subsidies then and companies like Chevron even owned an ethanol plant. In the early 90's the Clinton Admin. would not declare gasahol a clean air fuel IIRC subsequently the subsidies were halted and ethanol fuels all but went away.

It appears we're headed for a deja vu...only time will tell.

[Filovirus]

Corn-based biofuel is a horrible idea. Research is being done now now specially modified algae that can produce much higher yields of oil. The problem with all of these technologies is they are still cost prohibitive. Until the cost comes down or the government starts subsidising the companies, the overall cost of fuel will increase.

Another problem is getting these laws to pass and stick. The major oil companies are some of the largest political lobby groups out there. Do you think Exxon or any oil company is going to just sit there and let money be taken away from them by alternative fuel technology?

The law is a step in the right direction. We just need more and larger steps to solve the problems.

[Zorlox]

I personally think that using corn to produce ethanol is stupid, but I also think that that was the intention; people who know nothing about ethanol know that it made the cost of flour/other foods go up. If the administration can make people hate ethanol and the economic effects of producing it from corn, then I'm sure there are quite a few politicians/journalists/voters that would compare any future fuel source to ethanol to instantly discredit it.

[bdowns]

Another question is why the Gov't. "mandates" MPG numbers. So much for the free market system eh? People in this country obviously want humongous fuel sucking vehicles because that's what they buy. I think it's called "freedom of choice". Well they've tried it before with no luck, the auto makers will tell the Congressmen they own to exempt certain types of vehicle and pretty much keep doing what they're doing now. Sorry if I changed the thread, can't get into ethanol talk due to the biz I'm in.

[csl177]

Switchgrass, hemp, sugarcane, even Jerusalem artichokes produce more ethanol per acre than corn, but have no lobby. It doesn't matter though, since ethanol is a poor fuel source, costing energy to produce a low-energy yeild product. Three steps forward, two steps back. The biggest issue regarding any alternative fuels will be control of distribution, which is why the government screws us: Big Oil will retain control. They have the pumps, we're stupid enough to let them keep thinking that's important.

Hopefully the real energy revolution will come when individual home hydrogen fuel cells run on cheaper photo voltaics... eliminating the grid. Charge your car from your own energy source. But it won't happen as long as people continue to believe they can't effect change.

[cmcpokey]

Originally Posted by LandQuail

And, it goes without mention, wouldn't higher demand for corn-based fuel drive up the cost of whisky?

im not certain about whiskey, but i do know for a fact that the prices for corn oil and strangely soy have gone up. the soy due to the fact that lots of soy growers have switched their crops due to the higher demand.

[kingofthering]

Screw ethanol. It doesn't have as much energy as oil, so you'll burn more, which means more corn will be processed in factories powered by oil, therefore, you'd be better off buying oil.

Diesel ftw!

[clutch-monkey]

out of curiosity is it hard to turn ethanol into methanol...

[MadMax13]

Wont happen because no one will keep an eye on the companies, like "The Kimberley Accords"...

[NSXType-R]

Jeez. I love how stubborn America is. It seems like we're always 10 or so years behind everyone else.