Camless Engine to Possibly Debut in Fiat 500, Alfa Junior in 2009

[Kitdy]

Well, according to Autoblog, Fiat may produce a camless engine as early as 2009. I have never heard of this technology before, but it seems to be excellent. Fiat claims a 20% reduction in emissions to go along with an increase in performance.

If it's so good, why doesn't F1 use it?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Kitdy

If it's so good, why doesn't F1 use it?

don't they use pneumatic valves?

[Kitdy]

Originally Posted by henk4

don't they use pneumatic valves?

I heard that somewhere. I suppose that is superior.

[hightower99]

Originally Posted by Kitdy

I heard that somewhere. I suppose that is superior.

Only in the sense that pnuematic closing allows a much higher redline (currently 19000RPM)

I doubt that the electric solenoids used in this system would be able to obtain the same high redline... I bet they hit serious limitations before 10000RPM.

Note: F1 engines still use conventional cam systems to open the valves. They use a pneumatic system to close the valves (instead of conventional spring systems).

Technically you could replace the springs in the cam less system with pneumatic closing systems but I doubt the solenoids could open the valves fast enough and cycle fast enough to get to 19000RPM.

[lightweight]

The systems that will be used for road cars will use hydraulic actuators, as opposed to pneumatic ones used in F1.

The F1 engines still use cams, whereas these systems will not use cams at all.

The objective of this technology is not outright power though high-revs. On the contrary (just like all engine techs these days) the objective is to reduce fuel consumption.

The idea is that each valve of each cylinder will be controlled individually by the CPU, allowing more exact airflow management. This will allow HCCI combustion (the DiesOtto technology) along with EGR.

I expect engines to keep the redline where it is now and reduce fuel consumption. Maybe a slight increase in power will help market this technology better.

I will try and find an article on Lotus proActive magazine that explains this tech. Lotus Engineering sold this tech to Eaton.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Originally Posted by hightower99

Only in the sense that pnuematic closing allows a much higher redline (currently 19000RPM)

I doubt that the electric solenoids used in this system would be able to obtain the same high redline... I bet they hit serious limitations before 10000RPM.

Note: F1 engines still use conventional cam systems to open the valves. They use a pneumatic system to close the valves (instead of conventional spring systems).

Technically you could replace the springs in the cam less system with pneumatic closing systems but I doubt the solenoids could open the valves fast enough and cycle fast enough to get to 19000RPM.

That's true, but it's only a new technology, and has only been developed for road car usage. I'd say once it can be miniaturised and made to run at high rpm it'll find it's way to F1.

There's better tech than valve springs now anyway. Desmo FTW.

[lightweight]

Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen

That's true, but it's only a new technology, and has only been developed for road car usage. I'd say once it can be miniaturised and made to run at high rpm it'll find it's way to F1.

There's better tech than valve springs now anyway. Desmo FTW.

If it was better (the Fiat system), they would have used it in F1.

But they can't use it (the Fiat system) under current regulations, because the valves must be moved with a camshaft IIRC.

Renault was experimenting with magnetic valve actuators when they had the 111o V10, but the magnets that could handle the stress were too heavy and too big, deteriorating the COG of the car.

As far as the desmo is concerned, it would be too complex and too heavy to make a Desmo V8. I once read that Ducati are experimenting with pneumatic valves in moto gp. is this true??

[henk4]

Originally Posted by lightweight

As far as the desmo is concerned, it would be too complex and too heavy to make a Desmo V8. I once read that Ducati are experimenting with pneumatic valves in moto gp. is this true??

possibly in great secrecy, because, if successful, it will undermine one of their great marketing assets.

[lightweight]

In the link provided below, you can see a full article explaining Lotus Enineering's "Active Valve Train" (AVT) System. This article is a couple of years old, so since then Lotus Engineering sold the technology to Eaton automotive.

The AVT part is on page 11

http://www.just-auto.com/proactive/p...ve-issue-4.pdf

This is a pdf article, so 56k users beware...

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen

There's better tech than valve springs now anyway. Desmo FTW.

Desmo --- ROFLMAO.

Marmorini of Touyota said they were too complex and too expensive.

Check out Ducati in motorbike racing. They need more capacity to make equal power - or new regs are less restrictors ! AND their engines last ONE RACE.

No thanks, Desmo is a bad idea in performance cars -- just as it is in bikes

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine

Check out Ducati in motorbike racing. They need more capacity to make equal power - or new regs are less restrictors

I thought in Superbikes they could have larger capacity because they were only 2 cylinder engines, compared to the Japanese 4 cylinders.
Is there a different regulation regarding the restrictors in current GP1?

[Ferrer]

I read somewhere that Fiat was havin problems in industrialising that technology. Apparently it should have been introduced much earlier and several Alfa Romeo 147 mules have been built with this type of engines.

[culver]

I thought MB was talking about doing camless motors. Anyone know what happened to that?

[VtecMini]

Originally Posted by henk4

I thought in Superbikes they could have larger capacity because they were only 2 cylinder engines, compared to the Japanese 4 cylinders.

That's what I thought, too. I believe a few years ago the regs favoured the twin cylinders, hence Honda's decision to "out-Ducati" Ducati with the development of their V-twins. The irony of Ducati taking the championship with a V4 this year seems to be lost on many folk, though.

Is there a different regulation regarding the restrictors in current GP1?

They're all 800cc 4 cylinders, where the desmodromic system seems to be working rather nicely in Stoner's bike...

[Matra et Alpine]

Originally Posted by VtecMini

That's what I thought, too. I believe a few years ago the regs favoured the twin cylinders, hence Honda's decision to "out-Ducati" Ducati with the development of their V-twins. The irony of Ducati taking the championship with a V4 this year seems to be lost on many folk, though.

Not at all.
Ducati are outspending on engines by a order of magnitude
An engine lasts one race ... not after a race needs stripped ... but after a race the running gear is worn out and replaced -- FULLY

They're all 800cc 4 cylinders, where the desmodromic system seems to be working rather nicely in Stoner's bike...

No, the engine isnt' the most powerful.
The problem others are having is Ducati run their engines in big-bang mode and it reacts like a twin and they've more experience on running electronics to control the wheel pulses.
Other teams are producing much mroe power and torque but can't get a tyre to handle it.
On top of that Stoner is a great rider and ROssi has been hampered by a poor chassis and his injuries.
But most of it goes to Stoner imho ... check out where Capirossi's Ducati ended up