Supercar Engine Poll [Archive] - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

Matra et Alpine

12-04-2004, 05:44 PM

ARTICLE 19 : FUEL
19.1 Purpose of Article 19:
19.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the fuel used in Formula One is petrol as this term is generally understood.
19.1.2 The detailed requirements of this Article are intended to ensure the use of fuels that are composed of compounds normally found in commercial fuels and to prohibit the use of specific power-boosting chemical compounds. Acceptable compounds and compound classes are defined in 19.2 and 19.4.4. In addition, to cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 19.2 and 19.4.4 definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel.
19.1.3 Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.
19.2 Definitions:
Paraffins - straight chain and branched alkanes.
Olefins - straight chain and branched mono-olefins and di-olefins.
- monocyclic mono-olefins (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Di-olefins - straight chain or branched or monocyclic or bicyclic or tricyclic hydrocarbons (with five or more carbon atoms in any ring) with or without paraffinic side chains, containing two double bonds per molecule.
Naphthenes - monocyclic alkanes (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Aromatics - monocyclic and bicyclic aromatic rings with or without paraffinic or olefinic side chains and/or fused naphthenic rings. Only one double bond may be present outside the aromatic ring. Fused naphthenic rings must meet the naphthene definition above.
Oxygenates - specified organic compounds containing oxygen.
19.3 Properties:
The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics:
Property Units Min Max Test Method
RON 95.0 102.0 ASTM D 2699-86
MON 85.0 ASTM D 2700-86
Oxygen %m/m 2.7 Elemental Analysis
Nitrogen mg/kg 500 ASTM D 4629
Benzene %v/v 1.0 EN 238
RVP hPa 450 600 ASTM D 323
Lead g/l 0.005 ASTM D 3237
Density at 15°C kg/m³ 720.0 775.0 ASTM D 4052
Oxidation Stability minutes 360 ASTM D 525
Existent gum mg/100ml 5.0 EN 26246
Sulphur mg/kg 10 ASTM D 5453
Copper corrosion rating C1 ISO 2160
Electrical conductivity pS/m 200 ASTM D 2624
Distillation characteristics:
2005 F1 Technical Regulations 41 / 50 30 October 2004
At E70°C %v/v 20.0 48.0 ISO 3405
At E100°C %v/v 46.0 71.0 ISO 3405
At E150°C %v/v 75.0 ISO 3405
Final Boiling Point °C 210 ISO 3405
Residue %v/v 2.0 ISO 3405
The fuel will be accepted or rejected according to ASTM D 3244 with a onfidence limit of 95%.
19.4 Composition of the fuel:
19.4.1 The composition of the petrol must comply with the specifications detailed below:
Component Units Min Max Test Method
Aromatics %v/v 35* ASTM D 1319
Olefins %v/v 18* ASTM D 1319
Total di-olefins %m/m 1 GCMS
Total styrene and alkyl derivatives %m/m 1 GCMS
* Values corrected for fuel oxygen content.
In addition, the fuel must contain no substance which is capable of ixothermic reaction in the absence of external oxygen.
19.4.2 The total of individual hydrocarbon components present at concentrations of less than 5% m/m must be at least 30% m/m of the fuel.
19.4.3 The total concentration of each hydrocarbon group in the total fuel sample (defined by carbon number and hydrocarbon type), must not exceed the limits given in the table below:
% m/m C4 C5 C6 C7 C8 C9+ Non PONA* Unassigned
Paraffins 10 30 25 25 55 20 - -
Naphthenes - 5 10 10 10 10 - -
Olefins 5 20 20 15 10 10 - -
Aromatics - - 1.2 35 35 30 - -
Maximum 15 40 45 50 60 45 1 5
* Non PONA are components not meeting definitions in 19.2 and 19.4.4
For the purposes of this table, a gas chromatographic technique must be employed which can classify hydrocarbons in the total fuel sample such that all those identified are allocated to the appropriate cell of the table. Compounds present at concentrations below 0.1% by mass may be deemed unassigned, except that it is the responsibility of the fuel approval laboratory to ensure that components representing at least 95% by mass of the total fuel are assigned. The sum of the non PONA and unassigned hydrocarbons must not exceed 5% by mass of the total fuel sample.
2005 F1 Technical Regulations 42 / 50 30 October 2004
19.4.4 The only oxygenates permitted are:
Methanol (MeOH)
Ethanol (EtOH)
Iso-propyl alcohol (IPA)
Iso-butyl alcohol (IBA)
Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE)
Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (ETBE)
Tertiary Amyl Methyl Ether (TAME)
Di-Isopropyl Ether (DIPE)
n-Propyl alcohol (NPA)
Tertiary Butyl Alcohol (TBA)
n-Butyl Alcohol (NBA)
Secondary Butyl Alcohol (SBA)
19.4.5 Manganese based additives are not permitted.
19.5 Air:
Only ambient air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant.
19.6 Safety:
19.6.1 All competitors must be in possession of a Material Safety Data Sheet for each type of petrol used. This sheet must be made out in accordance with EC Directive 93/112/EEC and all information contained therein strictly adhered to.
19.7 Fuel approval:
19.7.1 Before any fuel may be used in an Event, two separate five litre samples, in suitable containers, must be submitted to the FIA for analysis and approval.
19.7.2 No fuel may be used in an Event without prior written approval of the FIA.
19.8 Sampling and testing at an Event:
19.8.1 All samples will be taken in accordance with FIA Formula One fuel sampling procedure, a copy of which may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
19.8.2 Fuel samples taken during an Event will be checked for conformity by using a gas chromatographic technique, which will compare the sample taken with an approved fuel. Samples, which differ from the approved fuel in a manner consistent with evaporative loss, will be considered to conform. However, the FIA retains the right to subject the fuel sample to further testing at an FIA approved laboratory.
19.8.3 GC peak areas of the sample will be compared with those obtained from the reference fuel. Increases in any given peak area (relative to its adjacent peak areas) which are greater than 12%, or an absolute
amount greater than 0.1% for compounds present at concentrations below 0.8%, will be deemed not to comply.
If a peak is detected in a fuel sample that was absent in the corresponding reference fuel, and its peak area represents more than 0.10% of the summed peak areas of the fuel, the fuel will be deemed not to comply.

Matra et Alpine

12-04-2004, 05:45 PM

SUMMARY :)
The base is 95-102 octane petroleum.
additives are limited and tested.

KinifeEdge is likely the only one to understand all that :)

Coventrysucks

12-04-2004, 05:50 PM

The rules on F1 fuels are incredibly strict.
Over the summer I met the man from Mobil who's job it is to stand in the back of a Team McLaren Mercedes truck and make sure that all of the fuel is exactly as specified to the FIA.

Even tiny contaminants from containers, vessels etc can alter the composition of the fuel, and if it doesn't match what the FIA have, you can be penalised.

Matra et Alpine

12-04-2004, 05:52 PM

Yeah. The 'smartest' additive was the lead pellets Ken Tyrrell put in the cars at their last pit stop to ensure they were above minimum weight at the end of the GP :)

jcp123

12-04-2004, 10:57 PM

I went for the Hemi. I mean c'mon, it's a Hemi! Second choice is an LS/1

johnnyperl

12-04-2004, 11:35 PM

SUMMARY :)
The base is 95-102 octane petroleum.
An F1 car can (does) run on standard premium (95-97) fuel. ferrari has a shell station a fiorano that supplys the same fuel to F1 and road cars.

jcp123

12-04-2004, 11:58 PM

I wish I could get 95 or 97 octane here. Premium in California means 91 octane, and in most of the rest of the States means 92 or 93.

Turbonutter55

12-05-2004, 03:31 AM

i like the Hemi, but it's MASSIVE! With the 160k weight limit, it's out. Radical engine: great, but serious lack of torque. maybe a turbo'd version. You can get 400 horses out of one turbo'd Hayabusa, so imagine what you can get with 2!
BTW, this turbo'd Hayabusa was put in a Mini (old one) converted to RWD :)

IWantAnAudiRS6

12-05-2004, 03:56 AM

Nothing with forced induction, because you can tune it as much as is possible before it blows up, then add on a couple of sequential turbos, maybe a supercharger...:D

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 04:39 AM

does anyone have any specs on the radical V8? longevity, price, etc? im still going for the LS1, light compact, and massive amounts of power/torque. the radical V8 seems like a good idea if not expensive and not up to par on the power/torque numbers. so any clue on price?

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 04:49 AM

henk4

12-05-2004, 05:08 AM

"It is unprecedented that a new engine development programme should go so well. This engine is going to re-write the book. The RPA engine is producing Cosworth DFV power at sensible clubman money. All the signs are that the RPA(engine) rebuild costs will be very reasonable, and the time between rebuilds should be over 30 hours."
right off the Radical website.

"should be over 30 hours". ha i hardly find that reliable... :rolleyes:
and with a power peak of 383hp and harldy over 200lb foot of torque, impressive in design but not in practice. not to mention its not even in production yet and theirs only one made. and all its doing/done is sitting on a dyno...

This is a racing engine (and probably out of place here for supercar choice) and if it can run for thirty hours under race conditions it will be able to cover a full season with at least ten sprint races. People in the historic F1 use a DFV with a serious rev limitation, to make these last a whole season, so there is some progress.

As for my choice, I tend to go for the VWV10, but it is probably too heavy. If they could develop a four litre V8 version, that would be about right. The inline BMW 535d engine (3 litre, 270 bhp and 520/1.36 lbft of torque) would also do the job. If you are not looking for good mileage, you can economize on the size of the fuel tank. :)

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 05:12 AM

This is a racing engine (and probably out of place here for supercar choice) and if it can run for thirty hours under race conditions it will be able to cover a full season with at least ten sprint races. People in the historic F1 use a DFV with a serious rev limitation, to make these last a whole season, so there is some progress.
all the while making less power and still being reletivly unreliable ;)

As for my choice, I tend to go for the VWV10, but it is probably too heavy. If they could develop a four litre V8 version, that would be about right. The inline BMW 535d engine (3 litre, 270 bhp and 520/1.36 lbft of torque) would also do the job. If you are not looking for good mileage, you can economize on the size of the fuel tank. just about any diesel will be to heavy due to their heavy braced blocks, besides are we making a supercar here or a stump puller? ;)

henk4

12-05-2004, 05:20 AM

just about any diesel will be to heavy due to their heavy braced blocks, besides are we making a supercar here or a stump puller? ;)

oh come on, spare me your US prejudice :)

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 05:24 AM

and spare me your european liberalism :)

henk4

12-05-2004, 05:26 AM

and spare me your european liberalism :)

liber means free, if you don't want our freedom you can always go for GWB's version :)

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 05:39 AM

it also means reform and you can keep your diesel reforming butt away from my supercar! j/k ;)
and ill stay away from dubyas "freedom" too thank you :)

cossie

12-05-2004, 05:57 AM

If weight is now the benchmark how about the Cosworth 4cyl stroked to 2.2L with the 8 injector setup and T04 Garrett turbo,that'll pump out 550Hp with 500 ft lbs of torque running through an uprated Renault transaxle to give mid mount/rear drive,same setup as the RS200 EVO had

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 05:59 AM

also an option, how much did it weigh, how much would it cost, and how relaible was it?

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 06:02 AM

theoreticaly we coulduse a modified 1st/2nd gen eclipse driveline as an allwheel drive setup, the 6 bolt 4g63 could take any amount of power you wanted to make within reason and with a reverse gear transmission we could have awd with a rear wheel power bias... just a thought, or how about a dodge srt-4 motor mounted mid ship? it is bullet proof stock and makes amzing amounts of power and torque for its size.

cossie

12-05-2004, 06:06 AM

don't know on transaxle but engines can be sourced at Ford still...price not sure,second hand around £1500 complete,Mountune in UK will supposively build it to 550Hp with all extras for £10000 after you give them basic engine.They proved very reliable,only downfall was Turbo in race conditions running too hot for too long ,but they still won Bathurst in some prettiy torturing conditions

Coventrysucks

12-05-2004, 06:46 AM

Amerspeed 383ci supercharged V8
640bhp

Blue Supra

12-05-2004, 04:23 PM

I went with the turbo 4L Ford engine, btw is a straight 6 not a vee. it has AMAZING potential power outputs... FPV_GTHO will tell you all about it im sure:)

megotmea7

12-05-2004, 10:44 PM

an DOHC straight 6 will be a pretty long and tall engine compared to some of the other choices we hve here, and d say it weighs more than a LS1 also with less potential. and as was said were looking for around 500hp, we dont exactly need an engine with amazing potential as we wont take advantage of it anyway making 'only' 500hp. im still for the LS1

Turbonutter55

12-06-2004, 01:40 PM

I went with the turbo 4L Ford engine, btw is a straight 6 not a vee. it has AMAZING potential power outputs... FPV_GTHO will tell you all about it im sure:)
I meant the Mondeo 3.0 Duratec, as used in the Noble M400

Matra et Alpine

12-06-2004, 02:14 PM

hmm, yeah didn't think about the Duratec. You got weight and sizes for it.
It's got lots of options for mounting once we chose the UCP layout :)

SHoudl it be added to this poll - seems like it went off half-cocked with lots of US engines ( maybe not bad given the 160ks rebuild )

QuattroMan

12-06-2004, 03:02 PM

AUDI RS6 TWIN TURBO V8 love that engine...

megotmea7

12-06-2004, 03:37 PM

people we have to consider all aspects ere,
FIRST concern is getting it under budget, hell a 360 modena engine would be perfect for our ap but id toesnt mean we can afford it,
SECOND concern(at least for me) is to be reliable enough to put in a street car, which is what this is going to be remember.
THRID concern is to be able to make the amount of power we want relaibly while still being as light as possible.

think about these before naming motors. IMO the powertec is to unrelaible and might be too expensive, no clue as its not even out and no price is posted on it. any audi/bmw/etc motor would be prohibative from their cost and still having enough money to modify it to reach our power goals.

Matra et Alpine

12-06-2004, 03:53 PM

SECOND concern(at least for me) is to be reliable enough to put in a street car, which is what this is going to be remember.

Remember Egg-Nogs confirmed guildeine that the engine has to have a 160,000kms between rebuilds.
As stated when that was announced, out goes the Powertec :)
Also pretty much everything else except for an untuned LS1 !!!!!
Any other engines anyone is going to put forwrd you HAVE to put up the engine weight and dimensions - and if it's a turbo you have to include the turbos in the size !!

Blue Supra

12-06-2004, 08:02 PM

FORD XR6T STOCK ENGINE:

Engine Specifications
Cylinders: T6
Valve Gear: V-Dohc
Turbo: Yes
Engine cc: 3984
Bore/Stroke: 92.26x99.31
Compression Ratio: 8.7
Power kW: 240
Torque Nm: 450

FORD F6 TYPHOON:

Power 367 bhp / 274 KW @ 5250 rpm
Torque 550 Nm / 406 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm
BHP/Liter 92 bhp / liter

all of this is easily modifiable to well over 500bhp with kits from APS and a few other places...

megotmea7

12-06-2004, 11:45 PM

wieght? and it will have a higher center of gavity and be physicaly larger than an LS1 while producing less torque

PerfAdv

12-06-2004, 11:49 PM

Depends what kind of curb weight the car will have. If the car weighs about 1,000 kg or 2,200 lbs, a smaller displacement high revving engine would be better suited, for a gradual more controllable buildup of power. The Radical V8 is nice but might not have enough low end to pull 2K+ lbs. Also from this list 4.0 litre M3 engine sounds good.

Naturally aspirated should definately be preferred over forced induction. Less weight, less complexity, less heat, more reliability, and better more controllable power delivery.

I think a Nissan V8 might also be a good option. The 3.5 liter V8s used in Indy racing are very light weight and very powerful and even the reg 4.5 V8 in production trim make a healthy 340 hp. A detuned Indy 3.5 or more likely a highly tuned 4.5 might make for an excellent supercar engine.

Blue Supra

12-09-2004, 05:14 PM

OK so then if you seriously want to go with the LS1 i HIGHLY recomend one of these to go with:)

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/ls1/ls1.htm

Matra et Alpine

12-09-2004, 05:24 PM

yeah, but for SURE you're not 160,000ks between rebuilds :)

ALSO read the warning about heat :) We'd have to contedn with that.

AND heavier clutch, 'box, diff, brakes and with the extra weight heavier suspension and steering and THEN bigger tryres with more unsprung weight.

Colin Chapman : DESIGN IN LIGHTNESS :)

Matra et Alpine

12-09-2004, 05:25 PM

pull 2K+ lbs.
:cough: tank :cough: :(

fpv_gtho

12-09-2004, 05:27 PM

wieght? and it will have a higher center of gavity and be physicaly larger than an LS1 while producing less torque

The differences would be barely noticeable when comparing both engines, its got a cast iron block which doesnt help the weight but it does have an alloy head. Something Blue Supra hasnt included in those figures though is where the torque is produced, for the XR6T engine its between 2000 and 4500rpm and for the F6 Typhoon its between 2000 and 4250rpm.

Blue Supra

12-09-2004, 08:01 PM

the typhoon pulls 550nm from 2000rpm and 400 off the line... STOCK!

Spastik_Roach

12-10-2004, 04:02 AM

Torque is a good thing indeed!

Spastik_Roach

12-10-2004, 04:07 AM

Guys... How about a Lexus V8? Affordable, powerful, robust, reliable, and easily tunable. My neighbours got one in his Countach Replica with twin extractors...sounds absolutely beautiful and f**kin fast aswell!

megotmea7

12-10-2004, 11:22 PM

personally i think it would be cool if it was quiet, tool around town you can bear the motor but its not intrusive, then you open her up and she roars. or how about a driver controlled valve to open up a dump pipe right after the headers or close to go thru the mufflers and emissions equipment. so you can take her ot a track open her up then driver it home without a obnoxious lope. would work even better if it were a turbo car as the exhaust wouldnt be so loud and the dump pipe would aid in turbo spool up, and the turbo would provide some muffling to the exhaust. just a thought

Matra et Alpine

12-11-2004, 04:31 AM

For noise, lets ensure we meet ALL emissions by keeping it quiet and most efficient.

Then we'll steal from Lotuas nearly 20 years ago and put in an active sound system.
Flick of a switch and the computer produces the right sound for the throttle position, engine revs, load and 'demeanour'. We can then give different switch positions to keep the revvers and the grunters happy 100%. Option to include EXTERNAL speakers to give the right sounds for posing - coz that's all sound outside is for anyway :)

We can even add "truck" position on the switch for all the Viper customers :)

fpv_gtho

12-11-2004, 04:37 AM

well thats something that i like about the different APS and Nizpro kits on the XR6T motor, theyre all designed with driveability still in mind plus still comply to out emissions and noise laws here

SlickHolden

12-12-2004, 10:25 AM

I'd go for a LS2 stroked with twin APS Turbo's.:D 400(RWHP)

RS6

12-12-2004, 03:09 PM

1.5 litre V16.

megotmea7

12-12-2004, 03:49 PM

I'd go for a LS2 stroked with twin APS Turbo's.:D 400(RWHP)
an LS2 is already 6 liters thus not needing to be stroked, it is more expensive than the tried and true LS1, and an LS1 or LS2 can make 400rwhp VERY easily without the need for an expensive turbo setup, simple bolt on sill get you to 400hp without a doubt

and a 1.5 liter V16? wtf? :confused:

SlickHolden

12-13-2004, 12:16 PM

an LS2 is already 6 liters thus not needing to be stroked, it is more expensive than the tried and true LS1, and an LS1 or LS2 can make 400rwhp VERY easily without the need for an expensive turbo setup, simple bolt on sill get you to 400hp without a doubt

and a 1.5 liter V16? wtf? :confused:
The GTS came 400HP in LS1, I'm Talking 400RWHP:D It's a bit hard to get that with just bolt on:D I think a LS1 could get 350KW with bolt ons but thats it.
But the turbo system that was made by APS is a real Flyer:D I don't have the price but in a VY ute it done 9.81sec 1/4 on it's second run:eek: And on the fuel econemy side it was bloody supprisingly good. It was only the LS1. And i got it wrong, It's 472kw @ the wheels Here's a pic of the dash:D http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/ls1/tonner/Picture-008.jpg

fpv_gtho

12-13-2004, 01:14 PM

400rwhp is nothing Slick, it wouldnt be a problem. Someone's already achieved that with the BOSS and thats got barely anything left in it NA, just new cams, Unichip, helix spacer, 80mm throttle body, underdrive pullies, extractors etc and 300rwkw

Blue Supra

12-13-2004, 10:39 PM

seems like the engine crew want the LS1 and nothing we say, or prove, will change that FPV...

well, back the interior job i go!:D

Spastik_Roach

12-13-2004, 11:38 PM

But it seems like the majority of people want the radical V8...

fpv_gtho

12-13-2004, 11:40 PM

i think theres the dream engine and the budget engine, the radical no doubt seems to be the dream engine but the LS1 seems to be the better budget engine

SlickHolden

12-14-2004, 03:52 AM

But that engine did 9.8 on it's second run, And has a best time of 9.5 now it's fast but not over the top it's very drivably, And as the pic shows it's got ecconemy on it's side also not bad:D 7.8 litres per 100k :eek: and it was sitting on 119kph

fpv_gtho

12-14-2004, 04:27 AM

any performance figures from APS would be fairly irellevant though as its not a Commodore that we're putting the engine in here, its a purpose built supercar.

SlickHolden

12-14-2004, 08:23 AM

The supercar would be lighter and faster:D with wider track and longer wheelbase:D
This baby will do 0-100 in 3.3 sec:D

fpv_gtho

12-14-2004, 09:38 PM

i doubt it'd have a longer wheelbase to be honest, the one tonner uses the wheelbase from the statesman remember, so about 150mm longer than a commodore, thats already pretty big

megotmea7

12-14-2004, 10:55 PM

i garatee you any performance you'll be able to squeeze out of that motor, the LS1 will better it while being lighter and shorter. and it probly would get better mileage to boot, 500hp cars weighing 2800lbs with an LS1 have been getting ~29mpg, and a n/a LS1 will produce more torque in a more linear fashion than a turbo 6 for better track time driveability, and not to mention LS1's are cheap as dirt. and it has been said, the powertec(radical) V8 will not fit this criterium, it is too unreliable.

VtecMini

12-15-2004, 01:58 PM

How about an engine that could produce more power than all of those put together? How about having all that power available at 102rpm? Ladies and gents... I present to you the king of engines (http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/) :D

Oh come on guys, 108,920 hp and 5,608,312 lb/ft of torque at 102 rpm! It's perfect! AND it only weighs... 2300... what? 2300 tons? Hmm... is that a lot? It certainly sounds like quite a lot... Erm... crap. :rolleyes:

Okay, 3.0 duratec it is then. :)

Matra et Alpine

12-15-2004, 02:23 PM

Well you can match that with the electric motor pods used in the Queen Mary 2
http://www.marine.alstom.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobkey=id&blobwhere=1006515570964&blobcol=urllargepicture&blobtable=at_picture

These are fitted with 20Mw electric motors.

Yeap, I did type that properly 20 MEGA WATTS.

Now THAT is one big electric motor - jstu can't find a picture of it on the Alstom, RR or Thales site :(

VtecMini

12-15-2004, 03:07 PM

What's a megawatt? Is it not one thousand kilowatts? If it is, my diesel beast is still better, cos 20,000 kilowatts is "only" (lol) 26820.44 hp. You'd need 4 of those to match my diesel guzzler.

Naturally you're gonna tell me I'm wrong and that you're QE2 engine is 25 times better than mine and then someone will probably kick my ass for deviating from topic, but it's okay, I'm ready for it!

Where the hell does one store the electricity for a motor of that power anyway? Or are they generator powered?

Matra et Alpine

12-15-2004, 03:10 PM

QM2 has 5 of these pods fitted IIRC.
Each of them rotatable around 360 degrees to improve stopping and maneouvring ( the reasons BIG ELECTRIC pods are the way for modern boats )
Military proposals are around for DOUBLE the size of pod.

The QM2 has 3 turbines and 2 diesel engines to produce the electriciy for these puppies :)
I don't think they've any major storage, they just turn on more engines when they need more electricity

SlickHolden

12-16-2004, 08:38 AM

SlickHolden

12-16-2004, 08:39 AM

Matra et Alpine

12-16-2004, 08:53 AM

Why turbo ? WHay not jsut tune up and avoid all the heat and lag problems ?

megotmea7

12-16-2004, 07:21 PM

we're going non turbo to my knoledge, there is no need to turbo a LS1 to attain ~500hp reliably, its a walk in the park n/a ;) and i quoted ~450lbs altogether for a porshe transaxle and built LS1. should cost around $9000 also

Blitz_

12-17-2004, 03:31 AM

Mopar Hemi 528 "King Kong" 620/640 coz it sounds awsum

Turbonutter55

12-17-2004, 07:26 AM

It is. That's *drumroll* FIVE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-EIGHT CUBIC INCHES! For you metric-users, EIGHT THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED AND FIFTY-SIX CUBIC CENTIMETERS! 620 horsepower is lazy for an engine that big. Only problems are weight (with an iron block!) and the 20,000 dollar price tag.

SlickHolden

12-17-2004, 05:55 PM

Why turbo ? WHay not jsut tune up and avoid all the heat and lag problems ?
This one has been made by APS, And it's perfect reliably and best of all where they stuck the turbo's keeps the heat down, Also fuel economy was very good with it:D And it's bloody fast:p

Matra et Alpine

12-17-2004, 06:01 PM

remember we're sticking the engine in the middle, no nice cool air from the front to help :(

SlickHolden

12-17-2004, 06:11 PM

It's ok cause the turbo's are at the bottom of the engine near the tranny they scoop up cool air from the ground:D http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/ls1/under1.jpg

Matra et Alpine

12-18-2004, 04:35 AM

that's in inline trannie.

How woudl it work with a transaxe and driveshafts ??

SlickHolden

12-18-2004, 11:09 AM

Hey your the expert mate:D I'm just a driver:D

ruim20

12-18-2004, 02:33 PM

hmm, some time ago i was looking for an engine and found this marvell...

http://www.carclassic.com/html/CX04.htm

couldn't that be in the poll?

Matra et Alpine

12-18-2004, 02:55 PM

SPending HALF the availabel money on one engine that is race tuned so will likely need a rebuild every 5000 miles isnt' going to fit in Egg-Nog's requirements

ruim20

12-18-2004, 03:09 PM

Egg-nog's to picky!! :D

and whats a supercars without a proper engine?

megotmea7

12-18-2004, 03:13 PM

we have a proper engine. an unreliable, unnessesarily high reving, extreamly peaky engine is out of place on a road car. the LS1 suits it nicely

ruim20

12-18-2004, 03:20 PM

It's just my opinion, i don´t think v8s are supercars engines... it's one of the problems some cars have, like the one on the KoennigSegg, nothing agains't v8, i just don't believe in them for supercars. Probably an european thing...

Matra et Alpine

12-18-2004, 03:35 PM

we have a proper engine. an unreliable, unnessesarily high reving, extreamly peaky engine is out of place on a road car. the LS1 suits it nicely
Bloody Americans - pah !!!

Don't know what a performance supercar is :)

SlickHolden

12-19-2004, 09:07 AM

What about the HSV GTS LS1. Reliable fast smooth as a baby's bum:D 300kw 400HP

We would have a OHC if GM wasnt so dumb in 89.

fpv_gtho

12-19-2004, 09:06 PM

megotmea7

12-20-2004, 12:34 AM

Bloody Americans - pah !!!

Don't know what a performance supercar is :)
hahaha

mabe its YOU who doesnt know what a performance supercar is. or possibly you dont know what a road car is ;)

SlickHolden

12-20-2004, 12:49 AM

The C4B would be getting pretty expensive Slick, considering its a Callaway engine and all. You remember how the price of the GTS jumped $25K when it got the 300kw engine as opposed to te 220kw stroker
But i would also say the extras the GTS comes with over the rest could make it $5,000+ maybe:D
But it would be a great donk maybe grab a second hand one from a smashed GTS ?? Or maybe grab the parts straight from callway might be heaps cheaper.

fpv_gtho

12-20-2004, 03:13 AM

well if you can find the price of one from a wrecker, by all rights post it but i wouldnt be surprised if it a 5 figure engine

Falcon500

12-20-2004, 04:33 AM

From a Clean sheet of paper (and engine aniliser 3.0) i made barry....also while i was off work....

12 cylenders 3.89 bore x 2.303 stroke 328 ci
and is running a very small turbo charger 8 psi
42 valves tiny little ports
3.5' twins

By rights this engine should not work (as well as it looks onpaper) considering to get it working ihad to do some very strange thingswith the set up :) Rember I built this engine on paper so there was alot of trial and error...alsoit runs on av gas lol.

But anyways

2000 rpm 415 break tq and 158 bhp
2500... 520 ....247
3000...525....300
3500...536....357
4000...582....443
4500...601...515
5000...621...591
5500...622...651
6000...602...688
6500...589...728
7000...560...747
7500...532...760

......unstable or what....the moral of the story...dont stay unemployed for too long i plays with your mind....but i had fun trying to make it work (without EA iluminiating the letters SPARK KNOCK)

Any takers :) maybey i could downtune son of barry :D

fpv_gtho

12-20-2004, 04:36 AM

where the hell did you get that program???

Falcon500

12-20-2004, 04:46 AM

Performance trends Of america...........but remberits a very expensive programm but it widely used by drag racers and bench racers (essentially to stop bench raceing but not going to a true dyno) ............and to its credit, it helped build a local HP heros engine (i still have to data on it and it did win too rember that white WB ute that won 2 years running untill its engine grenaded? and yes it did warn us....)

Matra et Alpine

12-20-2004, 05:04 AM

Falcon500

12-20-2004, 05:09 AM

matra im suprised you arntpulling the spec of my engine apart :( im almost dissapointed...

Matra et Alpine

12-20-2004, 05:26 AM

moi ? never :)
What I want to know is how you manage to get the valve train to move and what firing order ?

Falcon500

12-20-2004, 05:41 AM

lmao you must have the program because there 2 of the things it doesnt cover....Theres an engieneers version ($3,000 american) that more then likly would cover that but this ones more for existing engines...that arnt rotarys or diesel....

It also has a 1988 honda f1 engine (all 1.5 litres of it) and the power delivery is very much like my own engine...and valve sizes arnt far off it either....i think i made an engine that wont even last the 160,000...and i cannot get this to work with out the turbo i loose my low down torque :(

megotmea7

12-21-2004, 12:29 AM

sheez, megotmea7, don't act like your avatar.

There was a smiley and it's clearly a funny comment.

oh and I think i DO know what a supercar and road car are so thanks for the wink :)

Name the American performance Supercars.
Ford GT is about it.
Cobra - it's an AC
GT40 - it's a Lola
viper, 'vette - sports car NOT 'super'
muscle cars - too much focus on grunt
you wanna claim VECTOR ????? :)
apearently you misswed my sarcasm... :rolleyes:

but since you started why not, the cobra and GT40 both used big american V8's... and worked. the ford GT uses a smaller american V8 and it is in supercar status. the saleen S7 uses a big ass 427 and its a supercar. and the viper and vette, well thats a matter of opinion and personal definition of a 'supercar' you having a european veiwpoint sees them as big heavy tanks that NEED a big motor to pull around, and a true supercar needs to be unreliable and high reving. me, i see them as coparable to some european competiton for cheaper and still making decent track cars. but hey this has been gone over time and again so why bring it up?

Matra et Alpine

12-21-2004, 04:23 AM

No sarcasm and you missed the facts.
The Cobra is a big engine stuck into an exceptionally well designed and engineered chassis/body from AC Cars of England - so it's not really American.
The GT40 is a Lola design - that's England - and ultimately made successfel by John Wyers team - they're English too !! - so it's not really American.
a 'supercar' needs to offer excellence in all areas. The Saleen doesn't match styling. The vette and viper dont' stack up excellence in engineering or handling capability. ( an Enzo is fine in a straight line AND twisty alps roads for example )
I know more about American cars that you surmise in your comments :)
and how did you ever equate "unreliable" with supercar ? :confused:
"bring it up" ? Beacuse you asked if I knew what a road car was :)
Jsut answering you and correcting a few misconceptions at the time ( and ensuring Slicks will come in to defend the "engineering" comment which IS contentious I know :) )

Slicks

12-21-2004, 04:04 PM

Matra et Alpine

12-21-2004, 04:56 PM

Tell you waht SLicks, YOU explain why a Corvette or Viper is a SUPERCAR.

NOt a great sportscar, or good sportcar or good all rounder or any other mediocrity.
Justify them even being CONSIDERED a SUPERCAR.
Write down all the rason with a full explanation of why it merits it.
Go on, come on, do some work, waiting ........

megotmea7

12-21-2004, 09:39 PM

The Cobra is a big engine stuck into an exceptionally well designed and engineered chassis/body from AC Cars of England - so it's not really American.
The GT40 is a Lola design - that's England - and ultimately made successfel by John Wyers team - they're English too !! - so it's not really American.
never said the cobra or the GT40 per purly american, i just stated they used big amercan V8's and worked. which i get the conception around here from most people that a big american V8 will not work in a supercar, its "not good enough"

a 'supercar' needs to offer excellence in all areas.
all areas? practicality? this whole argument it opinionated. some consider an elise a supercar others just a sports car, its fast around a track and in a strait line but its also a bare bones chassis. what is it lacking to be a supercar?

The Saleen doesn't match styling.
id hardly expect you to use that as a point in an argument such as this, as slicks said that is PURLY opinion, many people say the S7 is beutiful, some dont, others condemn it because its got an "old school" V8 and somehow that carrys over to it being ugly. also as was said b4 the enzo is "ugly in my eyes and beutiful in say werty's. so does tht mean its not a supercar to me and is to him?

The vette and viper dont' stack up excellence in engineering or handling capability.
define exelence of engineering. they are very well engineered. if you mean using the latest CAD carbon fiber parts/chassis and the highest revving OHC V8/V10/V12 possible then i guess your right. but is that what makes a supercar? a technological pissing contest? and handling? the vette is a very good handling car whether you choose to acknoledge it or not

an Enzo is fine in a straight line AND twisty alps roads for example no one is denying that, but so is a vette ;)

I know more about American cars that you surmise in your comments :)
never questioned your knoledge of american cars ;)

and how did you ever equate "unreliable" with supercar ?
having to change your rotors every couple thousand miles is IMO unreliable, along with many other things. a buddy of mine used to have a 355 spyder and he was scared to drive it for fear of somehing else breaking. and he got rid of it for a C5 :rollseyes:

"bring it up" ? Beacuse you asked if I knew what a road car was :)
i asked you no questions, i was being sarcastic in response to your generalization that "us americans dont know what a supercar is"

Jsut answering you and correcting a few misconceptions
i know who made the cobra chassis. that was never a questions nor were the builders of the GT40's chassis, my point was the powerplant WAS a big american V8, and it was successful. in response to your "dont know what a supercar is" comment regarding me saying: "we have a proper engine. an unreliable, unnessesarily high reving, extreamly peaky engine is out of place on a road car. the LS1 suits it nicely"

i say this because one of our requirments is the car must run for 160km's so a superhigh revving formula one motor would be out of place since its a road car

megotmea7

12-21-2004, 09:41 PM

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 02:13 AM

Tell you waht SLicks, YOU explain why a Corvette or Viper is a SUPERCAR.

Maybe he can't, but I'll give it a shot...

NOt a great sportscar, or good sportcar or good all rounder or any other mediocrity.

Not a great sportscar? I dare you to compare anything to the stock performance of the Corvette or Viper for the price of either. If I really wanted to play, I'd go dollar for dollar and match the price of any of your Euro-wagons, and I'd not only outperform anything you could field, but ALSO have a more than competent street-to-track car to boot.

I'm certain if we did play like that, you'ld find that your euro-wagons and pasta rockets to be over-tuned and underperforming.

Justify them even being CONSIDERED a SUPERCAR.
Hmm okay, that means stock numbers are the rule of the day.

Corvette: 400 HP / 400 Ft.Lbs
Viper: 500 HP / 525 ft.lbs
Corvette skidpad: .98g
Viper Skidpad: 1.05g
Corvette 70-0: 166 ft
Viper 60-0: 97 ft
Corvette 0-60:4.3 seconds
Viper 0-60:3.9 seconds
Corvette QMT: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Viper QMT:11.77 sec @ 123.6 mph
Corvette $:$47,000
Viper $:$79,995

Now, if road holding and power aren't the measures of the European supercar, then god help me, I don't want one. Hell, for what they cost I still don't want one.

Write down all the rason with a full explanation of why it merits it.
Go on, come on, do some work, waiting ........
Your wait is over.
I am sure you will come back with some Euro-snob response resonating your dislike for all things American, including performance. In my opinion however, a Marque and a nice cut of leather do not a supercar make, nor does laggy, peaky turbos or huge pricetags a supercar make either. but to each his own.. :rolleyes:

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 02:22 AM

Not a great sportscar?

Oh boy did you miss the mark with that one. He was saying to Slicks not to prove it as a great sportscar, not saying it isnt a great sportscar.

I dare you to compare anything to the stock performance of the Corvette or Viper for the price of either. If I really wanted to play, I'd go dollar for dollar and match the price of any of your Euro-wagons, and I'd not only outperform anything you could field, but ALSO have a more than competent street-to-track car to boot.

If performance on a doller per doller basis is all your after, then why not jump straight straight into a kit car or such, which im sure you'll find in abundance from Europe

Hmm okay, that means stock numbers are the rule of the day.

Corvette: 400 HP / 400 Ft.Lbs
Viper: 500 HP / 525 ft.lbs
Corvette skidpad: .98g
Viper Skidpad: 1.05g
Corvette 70-0: 166 ft
Viper 60-0: 97 ft
Corvette 0-60:4.3 seconds
Viper 0-60:3.9 seconds
Corvette QMT: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Viper QMT:11.77 sec @ 123.6 mph
Corvette $:$47,000
Viper $:$79,995

Now, if road holding and power aren't the measures of the European supercar, then god help me, I don't want one. Hell, for what they cost I still don't want one.

What about some track times or such, skidpan and slalom figures as much as they seem to be thrown around stateside, arent the final story.

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 02:29 AM

what makes an enzo a supercar? or a veyron? or a mucialago?
The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".

it's really quite ewasy to write the subjective description. When trying to apply minutiae of facts to "justify and quantify" it becomes a fairly pointless exercise.

like the TG "cool wall" :)

hjholter, what you presented were cold figures that show a fast sportscar. I can give you many cars which better that and I wouldn't even consider them as great sportscars never mind supercars. The majority of the kit cars in the world can better some/most of the Viper/Vette figures. but they are a LONG way from supercars :) The ULTIMA - way the fastest is a long step away from Supercar-status. it's a fast piece of kit tat handles exceptionally well andholds record, but it don't cut it on so many levels of "supercarness"

megotmea7

12-22-2004, 02:37 AM

The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".
so what your saying performance takes a back seat to high tech gadgetery and dodads? it has to look cool, and it has to be comfortable?

what about PROVEN engineering and design(as "best" is subjective. proven could very well be the best. what dictates "the best"? the cost?) to attain the same result for 1/3rd the price? does that not qualify as a supercar?

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 02:39 AM

If performance on a doller per doller basis is all your after, then why not jump straight straight into a kit car or such, which im sure you'll find in abundance from Europe.
For one, try financing a kit car. Two, Why? I could easily build a kit car, but in that case, now I have to put together my ride that I couldn't finance, and after that insure. I think modding a Corvette or Viper would be the best bet.

What about some track times or such, skidpan and slalom figures as much as they seem to be thrown around stateside, arent the final story.

because track times are driver dependent, skidpad numbers and QMT's are as close to breaking down a cars performance to the basis: who can accelerate most quicky, and who can handle turns most readily. anything after that (and often including that) is driver dependent.
The final story is your skill + whatever the car is capable of.

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 02:42 AM

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 02:55 AM

The appliaction of best engineering, best design in ALL areas to produce at the same time a performance, look and comfort with some "cachet".
or.. "a nice cut of leather in an underperforming vehicle crowned with an overhyped marque for way too much money". gotcha.
Best design is opinion, especially when your Euro-wagon is ugly AND underperforms a car that cost so much less.

it's really quite ewasy to write the subjective description. When trying to apply minutiae of facts to "justify and quantify" it becomes a fairly pointless exercise.
you mean numbers indicating what the car is capable of are pointless?

hjholter, what you presented were cold figures that show a fast sportscar.
you mean numbers by which all cars are evaluated? I indeed presented those.

I can give you many cars which better that and I wouldn't even consider them as great sportscars never mind supercars. The majority of the kit cars in the world can better some/most of the Viper/Vette figures.
but can you give me these cars at the same or BETTER cost than the Viper or Vette? I think not.

As for the kit cars, you have to put it together yourself, in whole or part, and that labour and time is equivilant to dollars; time equals money, afterall, and that is time spend I would rather have with my signifigant other.. how about you? and nevermind financing and the like, I've already covered that.

but they are a LONG way from supercars :)
I guess if it doesn't have a euro-trash badge it doesn't do anything for ya, eh?

The ULTIMA - way the fastest is a long step away from Supercar-status. it's a fast piece of kit tat handles exceptionally well andholds record, but it don't cut it on so many levels of "supercarness"
Again, no badge and no nice cut of leather, and you have to put it together yourself. I guess it can't be a supercar :rolleyes:

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 02:58 AM

You'll find that basically any aspect to a cars performance is driver dependant. Your not going to get the same slalom spees, skidpan G's and of course the same track cars out of the same car with 10 different drivers. Better drivers will extract more from the car
Thank you for clarifying my point, but I'll go one more: outside of mathmatical calculation, no car will give you 100% without some skill. The math can tell you what it is capable of, but only YOU and YOUR skill determine what the car actually does and how it performs.

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 03:01 AM

So then if thats the case, why support skidpan and slalom figures but not track times? Sre the average idiot off the street will get far from the best, but those people that do rely on track times either get a credible driver to get all the figures, or they themselves are a credible driver.

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 03:11 AM

so what your saying performance takes a back seat to high tech gadgetery and dodads? it has to look cool, and it has to be comfortable?
where did you start reading ? best engineering" was up there too you know.
Shouldn't have skipped over that to try to get over a point.
Neither is that the only one !!

what about PROVEN engineering and design(as "best" is subjective. proven could very well be the best. what dictates "the best"? the cost?) to attain the same result for 1/3rd the price? does that not qualify as a supercar?
ah, NOW you're trying to bring "bang for buck" in and that doesn'ty work in ANY equation of the elite top - whcih surely is what a supercar must be.
Try to justify 2000 dollars for a bottle of 50 year old malt whisky when I can buy Bells for a fiver !! Same with wine, brandy, food, clothes, and yetp, cars.
McDonalds are a top restaurant ? He, proven formula :) Same ingredients - meat and heat :)
Some can tell the difference and want it and some can't. So is McDOnalds a top restaurant becase someone doesn't know any different ? Course not !!!
Seats that are adjustable, comfortable, switches that "feel" right ( a failing of Jaguars over the years keeping THEM out of that calss coz they isnisted in using Ford switches straight out of 5K Escorts !!!!
The "everything in the right place" feel.
Everything with the "feel of quality" - a rason I'd keep the F40 OUT of Supercar. up close they feel and look cheap !!!
Is it starting to make more sense to you by looking BEYOND figures ( as price is just one more )

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 03:18 AM

For one, try financing a kit car. Two, Why? I could easily build a kit car, but in that case, now I have to put together my ride that I couldn't finance, and after that insure. I think modding a Corvette or Viper would be the best bet.
When we talk about kit cars we're generally refereing to the WIDE variety offered elsewhere.
The US is limited in which cars it gets.
The Tiger ZZ is a 15K DOLLAR car that does 0-60 in sub 3 seconds :)
You can buy most kits pre-built for another 5-10K.
They achieve it through lightness - and IN that aren't really up for being "supercars" despite their blistering performance on tracks and roads.

because track times are driver dependent, skidpad numbers and QMT's are as close to breaking down a cars performance to the basis: who can accelerate most quicky, and who can handle turns most readily. anything after that (and often including that) is driver dependent.
The final story is your skill + whatever the car is capable of.
The numbers have been oft debated and generally agreed that whilst they give a number they dont' give an experience.
The favourite "useless numebr" is the skidpan - it only measures a single variable of a suspenion. The ability of a cr to handle a corner is dependand t on the corner BEFOER and the corner AFTER> You can get HIGH G figures real easy and end up with an uncontrollabel car on corners at the limit.
Even the slalom is questionable as it only test one harmonic of the suspension

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 03:29 AM

Now, what I was initially here for.

I say a 6 liter LS1 engine could easily meet the power goals for this supercar, Naturally aspirated and on readily available and in-expensive engine components.

Why not the competition?

The Ford 4 liter turbo I-Six is peaky, and lag in a supercar is unnacceptable. It's also a tall and heavy engine, made moreso by the turbo and all the piping necessary to maintain the integrety of the engine and smooth power output.
Nizpro, who tuned the I6 opened the RPM band to allow the engine to make big power without the dangers caused by big torque ( rods and rod bearing failure for one ) but in that, had to replace the valvetrain with non-stock pieces. not good.

The mondeo 3 Liter turbo 'duratec' six is a conventional V engine, but would be at its peak in the range of power you would want this car to be in, meaning you run more risk of blown head gaskets and other failures common to turbo engines, plus the ever-present risk of rod and rod bearing failure.

The LS1 / LS6 in stock, naturally aspirated form is capable of producing numbers near what this car would need. with a head and cam swap, these engines can easily make 450 horsepower to the flywheel.

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 03:44 AM

The Ford 4 liter turbo I-Six is peaky, and lag in a supercar is unnacceptable. It's also a tall and heavy engine, made moreso by the turbo and all the piping necessary to maintain the integrety of the engine and smooth power output.
Nizpro, who tuned the I6 opened the RPM band to allow the engine to make big power without the dangers caused by big torque ( rods and rod bearing failure for one ) but in that, had to replace the valvetrain with non-stock pieces. not good.

Peaky? Funny that no one else seems to agree.

The XR6T STANDARD has 450nm from 2000-4500rpm, does that sound peaky
The F6 Typhoon STANDARD has 550nm from 2000-4250rpm, does that also sound peaky?
The Nizpro Cobra stage 3 kit hits its peak torque of over 800nm around 3000rpm, does that also sound peaky?

Now, as for the engine Nizpro went all out on. Yes they did increase the revs, the original engine done 6500rpm from 6000rpm and that returned over 700kw. They went back and retuned it and its now got over 900kw. I think when your dealing with those numbers, its hardly a bad thing having to go back and upgrade the internals for that. The XR6T stock has basically the same internals other than pistons (for lower compression) to the normal XR6. Just one more way that Ford under-engineered the car to prevent backyard tuning, ontop of keeping the normal XR6's injectors, transmissions, fuel pump, small intercooler as well as fitting 2 supercodes in the ECU.

Oh, by the way, that engine isnt peaky either. Its been said that from as litle as 2000-3000, it torque figure eclipses that of the Cobra stage 3 kit on its wa to a peak figure way over 1000nm

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 03:50 AM

When we talk about kit cars we're generally refereing to the WIDE variety offered elsewhere.
I've seen some of that variety, and I'm not impressed.

The US is limited in which cars it gets.
The Tiger ZZ is a 15K DOLLAR car that does 0-60 in sub 3 seconds :)
You can buy most kits pre-built for another 5-10K.
so it's a 15k sports car eh? I'd rather buy an Rx7 and put an LS1 in it.. or a Miata... Cost me less and have less assembly involved. I'd get an 'experiance' :D

They achieve it through lightness - and IN that aren't really up for being "supercars" despite their blistering performance on tracks and roads.
And you have to put them together yourself, or pay more to get someone else to turn-key them for ya. niether option seems thrilling to me.

The numbers have been oft debated and generally agreed that whilst they give a number they dont' give an experience.
meaning that they aren't as good as actually test driving the cars back to back...

The favourite "useless numebr" is the skidpan - it only measures a single variable of a suspenion. The ability of a car to handle a corner is dependent on the corner BEFOER and the corner AFTER You can get HIGH G figures real easy and end up with an uncontrollabel car on corners at the limit.
Even the slalom is questionable as it only test one harmonic of the suspension
Yet they are numbers that are used to quantify most every cars performance, and are a good rule of thumb. I think I've made my point that Eurotrash is not the ultimate in performance, and probably never will be, and will never be worth it for the price paid, unless of course your a billionare or other 'too many dollars not enough sense' individual and are looking for an experiance. So heres an experiance for ya: Twin Turbo Vette passing whatever you happen to put forward as a supercar. he paid less, his car is probably less fragile and he gets to pass whatever it is you put on that silverplatter of supercardom.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 04:17 AM

Peaky? Funny that no one else seems to agree.
compared to any N/a engine with some displacement it IS peaky.

The XR6T STANDARD has 450nm from 2000-4500rpm, does that sound peaky
The F6 Typhoon STANDARD has 550nm from 2000-4250rpm, does that also sound peaky?
The Nizpro Cobra stage 3 kit hits its peak torque of over 8000nm around 3000rpm, does that also sound peaky?

one, your standard engine has to have a turbo to put out LS1 N/a numbers.
two, your stage 3 kit makes alot of torque, so I'm guessing you meant 800nm, meaning you have to buy a stage three kit to make 590 foot.pounds.

Thats assuring.

Now, as for the engine Nizpro went all out on. Yes they did increase the revs, the original engine done 6500rpm from 6000rpm and that returned over 700kw. They went back and retuned it and its now got over 900kw.
this is a one off engine, right? Or can you buy the parts to put this together yourself? Because if they're keeping it to themselves, you can keep dreaming.

I think when your dealing with those numbers, its hardly a bad thing having to go back and upgrade the internals for that. The XR6T stock has basically the same internals other than pistons (for lower compression) to the normal XR6. Just one more way that Ford under-engineered the car to prevent backyard tuning, ontop of keeping the normal XR6's injectors, transmissions, fuel pump, small intercooler as well as fitting 2 supercodes in the ECU.

Meaning, no matter what you have to replace the engine internals, and your still building a tall, heavy turbo engine. I mean, it gets better and better.

Oh, by the way, that engine isnt peaky either. Its been said that from as litle as 2000-3000, it torque figure eclipses that of the Cobra stage 3 kit on its wa to a peak figure way over 1000nm
.. in an engine which the compenents for you can't buy in kit form and can only hope goes further than a one-off halo engine in someone else's car.

According to the website, the stage 3 kit makes 600 flywheel horsepower and 600 ft.lbs, yet costs 'only' 19,800 AU, which is the equivilant to 15,165.49 USD. Now you try to tell me I can't build a better LS1 for that. Good luck.

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 04:32 AM

compared to any N/a engine with some displacement it IS peaky.

Matter of opinion. Many people who have actually driven an XR6T back to back with an FPV GT will say its the GT that has the peakier engine. The GT by the way uses the 5.4. Ford chose that engine over the 4.6 because it was less peaky than the 4.6

one, your standard engine has to have a turbo to put out LS1 N/a numbers.

Yes it does have a turbo. Do you have a more cost effective way to match power when youve got 1.7L less capacity??

two, your stage 3 kit makes alot of torque, so I'm guessing you meant 800nm, meaning you have to buy a stage three kit to make 590 foot.pounds.

Correct, that was a simple typo that mind you i have since corrected after looking back on it

Thats assuring.

Well now your looking at it from an "engine-alone" perspective, which isnt what the kits are designed for. For under $80K youve got a car that'll be faster than anything this side of $300K, thats what its designed for. Not only that but for the stag 3 kit Nizpro have fitted forged internals

this is a one off engine, right? Or can you buy the parts to put this together yourself? Because if they're keeping it to themselves, you can keep dreaming.

That specification engine is able to be purchased straight from Nizpro for $38K

Meaning, no matter what you have to replace the engine internals, and your still building a tall, heavy turbo engine. I mean, it gets better and better.

And how is that different to many other engines as far as upgrading internals?

.. in an engine which the compenents for you can't buy in kit form and can only hope goes further than a one-off halo engine in someone else's car.

Well i proved before the availability of the 900kw engine. You may be surprised to actually here Nizpro are currently making a customer engine to that specification that will find its way into a drag car doing the rounds nationally, hoping to get into the 6's

According to the website, the stage 3 kit makes 600 flywheel horsepower and 600 ft.lbs, yet costs 'only' 19,800 AU, which is the equivilant to 15,165.49 USD. Now you try to tell me I can't build a better LS1 for that. Good luck.

As far as the kit is concerned thats way out of context. When Ford released the XR6T late 2002, the aftermarket industry has literally EXPLODED with kits parts, you name it, all to truly unlock the potential of sticking the Garret GT40 onto a proven straight six engine.

It may help to know that both APS and Nizpro whilst trying to develop their cost effective kits, have FAILED to destroy an engine in achieving the maximum goal

I wont try and tell you anything about being able or not beig able to build a better engine as that'd be subjective and i doubt you'd care anyway

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 04:39 AM

where did you start reading ? best engineering" was up there too you know.
Shouldn't have skipped over that to try to get over a point.
Neither is that the only one !!

So to have the best engineering it has to have all sorts of technology and parts sourced from F1 or whatever Racing series you adhere to, right? I always thought getting the job done for less was best engineering, but I guess if you have to drive a rolex watch, you can. In the end, its all opinion, but if you look at say, F1, it has stopped progressing technologically in favour of keeping it a drivers race, and only so much can transfer over before your driving a race car with a nice stereo. again I say, to each their own :rolleyes:

ah, NOW you're trying to bring "bang for buck" in and that doesn'ty work in ANY equation of the elite top - whcih surely is what a supercar must be.
Which is an old man's opinion.. I'm sure many people are more than happy to call the Nobel M12 or the Ultima supercars because they offer superlative performance for less than the price of the competition. and hey, drop in the appropriate engine ( LS1 ;) ) and it easily could be. The only plus I see to a kit car is picking out what you like, and putting it together how you like. it's the ultimate personalized vehicle.

Try to justify 2000 dollars for a bottle of 50 year old malt whisky when I can buy Bells for a fiver !!.
It gets you just as drunk, eh? and the nasty taste means it's workin' my ol' lady likes to tell me. I'm not a wine drinker, and for the most part like things that taste good ( guiness probably being the exception ), and satisfy my wallets craving to remain full. comes down to opinion.When I get older, have
been married awhile and am more sentimental, I'll take time to savour life and all of its experiances, I'll probably buy an old(er) bottle of wine or the somesuch and get drunk with the ol' lady. I'm sure you'll understand.

Same with wine, brandy, food, clothes, and yetp, cars.
McDonalds are a top restaurant ? He, proven formula :) Same ingredients - meat and heat :)
Some can tell the difference and want it and some can't. So is McDOnalds a top restaurant becase someone doesn't know any different ? Course not !!!)
Mickey d's is profititable, thats the point. the food is edible, cheap, and quickly made. but you know what your getting.

Seats that are adjustable, comfortable, switches that "feel" right ( a failing of Jaguars over the years keeping THEM out of that calss coz they isnisted in using Ford switches straight out of 5K Escorts !!!!
oh oh oh, don't forget the nickname.. jiggly-wire, they suck because the electrical system shorts and it gets to be bitch replacing fuses and running down wiring scematics... I tend to think jaguar builds cars for those that either expect to do alot of walking, or have anouther car to drive ( or be driven in).

The "everything in the right place" feel.
After a certain point tho, it's sheer opinion and knowing your car..

Everything with the "feel of quality" - a rason I'd keep the F40 OUT of Supercar. up close they feel and look cheap !!!
Is it starting to make more sense to you by looking BEYOND figures ( as price is just one more )

but price is the ultimate figure, you get what you pay for. I for one want alot of bang for my buck, I work hard for mine and so, I guess I would never understand a supercar.

Spastik_Roach

12-22-2004, 04:45 AM

one, your standard engine has to have a turbo to put out LS1 N/a numbers.

God man. It has 2 less cylinders and 1.7l less capacity. Seems like a pretty poor desperate excuse to me. Now if it had 2 extra cylinders and 1.7l more you'd be making a valid point, but since it doesn't maybe you should think before you post.

FPV_Gtho has proved pretty much everything you have said wrong. Please, get your facts right before you post.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 05:01 AM

Matter of opinion. Many people who have actually driven an XR6T back to back with an FPV GT will say its the GT that has the peakier engine. The GT by the way uses the 5.4. Ford chose that engine over the 4.6 because it was less peaky than the 4.6
Then it comes down to opinion..

Yes it does have a turbo. Do you have a more cost effective way to match power when youve got 1.7L less capacity??

A turbo which adds wieght and more complication. you do whatever math is necessary to understand my point here.

Well now your looking at it from an "engine-alone" perspective, which isnt what the kits are designed for. For under $80K youve got a car that'll be faster than anything this side of $300K, thats what its designed for. Not only that but for the stag 3 kit Nizpro have fitted forged internals

I thought this thread was for engine alone. Again, that's alot of cash for a turbo engine.

That specification engine is able to be purchased straight from Nizpro for $38K

where on their website is that stated? The most performance they have there is the stage 3 kit, which we've discussed. And 38k for a turbo motor is again, a bit much.

And how is that different to many other engines as far as upgrading internals?

Your pre-modding the engine internals before its anywhere near the car. The idea is to give the stated performance for so much, and in this case, leave room for mods, and here you are modding away.

Well i proved before the availability of the 900kw engine. You may be surprised to actually here Nizpro are currently making a customer engine to that specification that will find its way into a drag car doing the rounds nationally, hoping to get into the 6's
Proved nothing, but I hope they hit six's.

As far as the kit is concerned thats way out of context. When Ford released the XR6T late 2002, the aftermarket industry has literally EXPLODED with kits parts, you name it, all to truly unlock the potential of sticking the Garret GT40 onto a proven straight six engine.
Out of context? it's 2004 buddy, they've had nearly three years to build on the thing and strap bigger turbo's on and the like, and all I can find on their website is a 600 HP stage 3 kit, and here you are saying that's out of context? sounds like a misunderstanding somewhere...

It may help to know that both APS and Nizpro whilst trying to develop their cost effective kits, have FAILED to destroy an engine in achieving the maximum goal

So they've failed to destroy engines they've more than likely overbuilt.. good for them.

I wont try and tell you anything about being able or not beig able to build a better engine as that'd be subjective and i doubt you'd care anyway
I only mentioned it because I knew the outcome would equal 'more cost effective for goal horsepower and torque levels' and that is easily doable within the Nizpro Stage 3 kit budget.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 05:11 AM

God man. It has 2 less cylinders and 1.7l less capacity. Seems like a pretty poor desperate excuse to me. Now if it had 2 extra cylinders and 1.7l more you'd be making a valid point, but since it doesn't maybe you should think before you post.

FPV_Gtho has proved pretty much everything you have said wrong. Please, get your facts right before you post.

I don't see where desperation has anything to do with it. I mean the turbo adds wieght and more plumbing, meaning more clutter to the engine bay and more complication. If you want to use a smaller displacement engine with a turbo good for you, but the price to get it to the level attainable with a small block is a good bit more.

so what it has less displacement and fewer cylinders? power is power, right? The LS1 can do it N/a and the 4 liter has to have a crutch..

So how about we add a turbo to an LS1? they'd probably weigh in similarly, with the LS1 making more power. win-win right? unless of course you just love the ford engine and think less displacement is the way to go, which I personally disagree with.

and sir, he hasn't proved me wrong, he has in fact clarified my points.

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 05:31 AM

A turbo which adds wieght and more complication. you do whatever math is necessary to understand my point here.

And theres SOOOOO much weight in a turbo now is there? Theres compication in many things, but considering its a factory turbo conversion as opposed to everyone sticking their own turbos on aftermarket, the confusion is considerably less as all the hard yards have been done by Ford already

I thought this thread was for engine alone. Again, that's alot of cash for a turbo engine.

The thread is for engine alone. But that doesnt change the fact that these kits are for something thats the whole package. Theyre made to attract buyers with the thought that at the end of the day, their car which may cost $60K all up as supercar matching straight line performance

where on their website is that stated? The most performance they have there is the stage 3 kit, which we've discussed. And 38k for a turbo motor is again, a bit much.

The engine has been discussed AT LENGTH across the country here. After the first dyno pics of the engine with its extractor glowing red hot, theyve spread everywhere. Nizpro couldnt have prayed for better coverage.

If your not satisfied with that, a representative from Nizpro has actually posted info on the engine on this very site: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9155

$38K for a turbo motor isnt the bottom line either though, $38K for 913kw/1400nm is

Your pre-modding the engine internals before its anywhere near the car. The idea is to give the stated performance for so much, and in this case, leave room for mods, and here you are modding away.

That may be the idea for people around you, but most people around here will quite happily tune an engine for what its worth or to a budget, THEN work on how to get it to the ground and wait for the figures.

Proved nothing

Look above at what i said

Out of context? it's 2004 buddy, they've had nearly three years to build on the thing and strap bigger turbo's on and the like, and all I can find on their website is a 600 HP stage 3 kit, and here you are saying that's out of context? sounds like a misunderstanding somewhere...

Its out of context as you seem to have no grasp on the difference between yours and my local aftermarket industry.

Dont forget that alot of the aftermarket business is driven by demand. If they start building kits that wont get sold, its a big waste of money now isnt it. Not only that, but alot of these companies have many development projects on their hands, ALL OF WHICH TAKE TIME. APS alone are conntinuing to provide furthe XR6T kits whilst also developing a twin turbo kit for both the 5.4, LS1 and 350Z, ontop of their usual range of WRX/STi kits.

So they've failed to destroy engines they've more than likely overbuilt.. good for them.

Dont forget the most important part in keeping the engine together is the block, and how many people build/replace stronger blocks as if it was nothing? MANY cars once they start cracking/fracturing blocks, thats the end of the line. So maybe i shouldve said that 913kw and 1400nm havent been able to crack the engines standard block yet

Coventrysucks

12-22-2004, 05:55 AM

I am sure you will come back with some Euro-snob response resonating your dislike for all things American, including performance. In my opinion however, a Marque and a nice cut of leather do not a supercar make, nor does laggy, peaky turbos or huge pricetags a supercar make either. but to each his own.. :rolleyes:

I think I've made my point that Eurotrash is not the ultimate in performance, and probably never will be, and will never be worth it for the price paid, unless of course your a billionare or other 'too many dollars not enough sense' individual and are looking for an experiance. So heres an experiance for ya: Twin Turbo Vette passing whatever you happen to put forward as a supercar. he paid less, his car is probably less fragile and he gets to pass whatever it is you put on that silverplatter of supercardom.

Yawn.

More of the same old tired dross about the Vette and the Viper being the best cars on the planet because of simple engineering and price.

Well they are impressive. Well done America, have a medal. Two good cars.

You make out that "a cut of leather" or F1 grade engineering are bad things.

You might not aspire to quality or technology, but some do.
What of those Americans who are rich enough to consider buying our "Eurotrash"?

Do you really think that a multi millionaire in the US will be feeling smug driving a Corvette thinking "wow, I saved so much money"?

I doubt it. I think they'll be down to their nearest Porsche, Lamborghini or Aston Martin dealership.

Case and point - Rappers. They want to show off their wealth and success. What do they buy - Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, Bentley.

Look at all "rich people" things - clothes, buildings, cars - all objects of QUALITY not cheap plastic and fake leather.

And why is technology bad? You obviously think it is important as you are at a computer, posting on the internet, rather than a stone tablet and chisel.

Anyone can build a car with "simple" engineering - as proven by kit cars.
You can knock one up in your garage.

It takes skill and knowledge if you want to start baking carbonfibre, or constructing your chassis out of bonded aluminium.

And obviously technology wins the day as proven by the fact that the best and fastest cars are inevitably built to the highest possible specification.

And if American cars are so great why aren't there any serious contenders to the "Eurotrash" of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston, Porsche etc?

Please someone tell me why the "greatest" country on the planet can't build supercars!

ruim20

12-22-2004, 06:04 AM

hmm, if i'd known you guys where going to "fight" about it, i'd never had posted that Lambo engine... still pretty interesing exchange of ideias.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 06:55 AM

Yawn.

More of the same old tired dross about the Vette and the Viper being the best cars on the planet because of simple engineering and price.

Well they are impressive. Well done America, have a medal. Two good cars.

We have more than that, but I'm sure you're not interested in any non-eurotrash.

You make out that "a cut of leather" or F1 grade engineering are bad things.

When judged as more important than handling or power, it is :rolleyes:

You might not aspire to quality or technology, but some do.
What of those Americans who are rich enough to consider buying our "Eurotrash"?

They want the fastest status symbol they can lay their hands on that will lend them credibility or make them seem as part of the elite.

Do you really think that a multi millionaire in the US will be feeling smug driving a Corvette thinking "wow, I saved so much money"?

No, he'd feel smug knowing that he bought American, and still outran you fools.

I doubt it. I think they'll be down to their nearest Porsche, Lamborghini or Aston Martin dealership.

To point and laugh? are they having a sale they aren't advertising?

Case and point - Rappers. They want to show off their wealth and success. What do they buy - Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, Bentley.

umm, they also buy Cadillac Escalades, Hummers, Chrysler 300c's and Yukons. These guys obviously share your taste in automobiles.. trucks and lowered armoured cars, oh my.

Look at all "rich people" things - clothes, buildings, cars - all objects of QUALITY not cheap plastic and fake leather.

rich people things? umm the rich people I know buy what the rappers buy.. as I stated above...

And why is technology bad? You obviously think it is important as you are at a computer, posting on the internet, rather than a stone tablet and chisel.

I never said technology was bad, I just feel that to pursue technology in lieu of actual performance was less than intellegent, and if you feel that my love of the LS1 means I like low tech, I have news for ya buddy.

Anyone can build a car with "simple" engineering - as proven by kit cars.
You can knock one up in your garage.

.. To compare a kit car to Corvette or Viper is an apples to oranges comparison.

It takes skill and knowledge if you want to start baking carbonfibre, or constructing your chassis out of bonded aluminium.

To the best of my knowledge, if you can work fibreglass, carbonfibre isn't that much more difficult, but bonded aluminum is out of my realm of work.
Maybe my point should be, why do you need these things if you can build an engine? ( guess who I am paraphrasing :D )

And obviously technology wins the day as proven by the fact that the best and fastest cars are inevitably built to the highest possible specification.

What about the Nobel M12? or is it not advanced enough for you? I guess it falls down to your love of Marque.

And if American cars are so great why aren't there any serious contenders to the "Eurotrash" of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston, Porsche etc?
Because most american car manufacturers don't seem to care and build cars to get decent gas mileage and go on the cheap. Concurrently GM is improving quality and building better cars, but it's not like everyone will change suddenly. And to be honest with you, those same American companies OWN the Eurotrash and don't feel the need to compete with their own product.

Please someone tell me why the "greatest" country on the planet can't build supercars!
We do, we own the European companies that build them :D

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 07:04 AM

I think its attitudes like that which are causing Jaguar to lose money :rolleyes:

ruim20

12-22-2004, 07:21 AM

Hjholter3... "buy american"????

i definetly hate "Go USA, Hill Billy Rednecks" guys like you!

"To the best of my knowledge, if you can work fibreglass, carbonfibre isn't that much more difficult" read more or work with it, for every fiber there's a way to work.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 07:41 AM

fpv_gtho, rather than parse through all your text, I'll respond like this.

The Turbo straight six makes good power for a turbo engine, but the turbo adds more moving parts and wieght with plumbing, intercoolers and the like.

If you'ld like to argue that fine, you do that.
Again, this is a one off car, and I'm sure it will not match the underhood setup of your Ford.

fact is, you can easily buy a complete crate LS1 that satisfies the the power requirements for this design iteration naturally aspirated and can easily be pushed further with turbo or supercharging if need be.

Link> http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com/57500.html

specs:
HP: 500
TQ: 480
Pump gas aluminum 5.7 liter, Natural aspiration
price: 10,550 USD

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 08:00 AM

Hjholter3... "buy american"????
Yup, buy American. :D

i definetly hate "Go USA, Hill Billy Rednecks" guys like you!

Because we have pride in our country and it's heritage? because we've served in the military? ****, I'm proud to be a redneck from the same area Alvin C York came from, and if you have a problem with it, deal. I mean, its better than being from Europe, which it seems we visit every now-and-again to make sure they don't all start speaking German. Not that thats a bad thing, meh.

"To the best of my knowledge, if you can work fibreglass, carbonfibre isn't that much more difficult" read more or work with it, for every fiber there's a way to work. ... but if you have fiberglass experiance, you know how to set matt and use resin, The technique for carbon fibre is like Fiberglass except you're using Carbon Fibre cloth as your reinforcement for the resin. you can get the cloth here >http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-Carbon+Fiber+%28Graphite%29+Fabrics+%26+Tapes-15.html#19
and the resin here> http://www.fibreglast.com/category.php?categorycode=5&trksrc=HelpfulProd
Easy eh? :D

fpv_gtho

12-22-2004, 08:15 AM

umm....as far as i know, carbon fibre has to be baked meticulously. nothing of the sort is needed for fibreglass

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 08:31 AM

umm....as far as i know, carbon fibre has to be baked meticulously. nothing of the sort is needed for fibreglass

Meticulous? from the website which I provided a link to...

System 2000 Epoxy Resin

System 2000 Epoxy Resin is a low viscosity, light amber laminating resin that is designed for fabricating parts and other demanding structural applications. Use this system to maximize the physical properties of carbon fiber, Kevlar®, and glass laminates! Test results have proven superiority over other room temperature epoxies. Its low viscosity and great handling characteristics make it a favorite in the shop too!

Three high performance hardener systems are available for the System 2000 resin. 20 minute, 60 minute and 120 minute pot life versions are all options. This added variety allows the fabricator to select the system best suited to the size, complexity, or time-frame of the project. Simple parts which need to be demolded quickly should use the 20 minute hardener. Larger and more complex parts can use either of the other hardeners.

Vacuum Bagging applications would typically warrant the longest 2 hour working time. As with any epoxy system, adhere to the proper mix ratios and maintain an adequate curing temperature of at least 70 degrees F. The cure time will be cut in half for every 10 degrees F that the temperature is raised above 70 degrees F Purchase a single cure, or buy resin in bulk and order a variety of hardeners to keep on hand for any project.

okay, as I read it, you mix it right and keep it at least 70 degrees for however long it specifies as a cure time... if thats meticulous to you, I'd hate to see the results of you building an engine :rolleyes: maybe fiberglass is easier, but the technique hasn't changed.

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 08:59 AM

the same or BETTER cost than the Viper or Vette? I think not.
Look up car prices for kits. Even the expensive Caterhams and Westfields are cheaper !

As for the kit cars, you have to put it together yourself, in whole or part, and that labour and time is equivilant to dollars; time equals money, afterall, and that is time spend I would rather have with my signifigant other.. how about you? and nevermind financing and the like, I've already covered that.
not really, but you can buy the kits ready built and there is an excellent market in kits built by others.

I guess if it doesn't have a euro-trash badge it doesn't do anything for ya, eh?
How many real Eurepean cars ahve you seen or driven in. Give us a list please.
Also, we've already covered the variants in the US aren't the same so REAL European cars please )

Again, no badge and no nice cut of leather, and you have to put it together yourself. I guess it can't be a supercar :rolleyes:
erm, THAT was the point, please go back and read it.
The not so subtle but still missed point was that a Donkervoort does destroy a Viper or Vette on performance and bang for bucka dn still doesn't make a "supercar"
I'll try to make thigs less subtle :)
Let me try it differnetly. WHY did Ford make the GT ? To rekindle the memory of the GREAT GT40 and through that get soem "cachet" for the car.

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 09:09 AM

I've seen some of that variety, and I'm not impressed.
Surprised.
What ones have you seen ?
Driven ??

so it's a 15k sports car eh? I'd rather buy an Rx7 and put an LS1 in it.. or a Miata... Cost me less and have less assembly involved. I'd get an 'experiance' :D
ANd have somethign weighing TWICE AS MUCH and get left as soon as the road got twisty.
One CLEAR defineition of a supercar is it has to be better on more than just a 1/4 mile !!

And you have to put them together yourself, or pay more to get someone else to turn-key them for ya. niether option seems thrilling to me.
Odd last comment. Every production car you've ever bought was a "turn-key".
Arguably you get BETTER production from a kit builder as they are dedicated and focussed and NOT someone being paid minimum wage in a mexican engine plant - or Ford's casting sub-contractor (ouch) !

Yet they are numbers that are used to quantify most every cars performance, and are a good rule of thumb. I think I've made my point that Eurotrash is not the ultimate in performance,
erm, NO, by a long way.
You've added PRICE in the equation to be able to have eny tenable argument.

and probably never will be, and will never be worth it for the price paid, unless of course your a billionare or other 'too many dollars not enough sense' individual and are looking for an experiance.
It's NOT that expensive to own a Porsche or Ferrari :)

So heres an experiance for ya: Twin Turbo Vette passing whatever you happen to put forward as a supercar. he paid less, his car is probably less fragile and he gets to pass whatever it is you put on that silverplatter of supercardom.
Donkervoort - it OWNS the Nordschliefe record.
Radical - it USED to own the record ( see above ) and the SR8 is coming to take it back.
And you knwo I don't consider any of those supercars because they are great MACHINES but lack a level of comfort and handalability.
Just like Vipers and Vettes on twisty roads.
Ferrari 612 - do it all and with space for 4 adults.

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 09:14 AM

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 09:20 AM

well, the super-tuned vipers are made to do quarter mile super insanely fast. if you dont get it tune to the max, and dont get the super-stiff suspension, then you can go faster and handle. but most of the packages they offer dont have that. dam, matra, do you eat encyclopedias?

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 09:31 AM

I would rather a HSV Clubsport LS2 cheaper and got 5 seats:D 400hp off the line:D
Almost hitting sub 5 to 100:D

Also i thought for a extra $3000 you could get a XR6T with 350kw

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 09:33 AM

Look up car prices for kits. Even the expensive Caterhams and Westfields are cheaper !
It's still a kit car with all the trouble with financing and insurance that comes with it. not interested at this point in my life.

not really, but you can buy the kits ready built and there is an excellent market in kits built by others.
not really what? and yeah, you can buy a prebuilt kit, but then you have to find your own financing and insurance and blah blah blah. The market exists, but it isn't the same as the normal automotive market.

How many real Eurepean cars ahve you seen or driven in. Give us a list please.
Also, we've already covered the variants in the US aren't the same so REAL European cars please )

Volvo S80 (rode in)
Porsche 911 ( I drove )
multiple 3 series BMW's and a 5 series ( rode in )
BMW Z4 ( drove in and rode in )
Mercedes SLK 230 ( test drove )
Early 90's Jaguar with round headlights ( rode in )
Mercedes Sedan, older model.

erm, THAT was the point, please go back and read it.
The not so subtle but still missed point was that a Donkervoort does destroy a Viper or Vette on performance and bang for bucka dn still doesn't make a "supercar"
so obviously if the marque doesn't have prestige, then it will never be supercar...okay :rolleyes: **** supercars then. I'm happy with the vette and viper, cachet or no, they do exactly what I want them to do. You Euro's will never respect my views I am sure.

I'll try to make thigs less subtle :)
Let me try it differnetly. WHY did Ford make the GT ? To rekindle the memory of the GREAT GT40 and through that get soem "cachet" for the car.
well duh, its a limited production 'halo' car. thats the point.

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 09:36 AM

I should grab a VL Calais and hit the turbo 1/4's in 8sec and street legal:D Blow the doors of any V8:D And it's 18 years old:eek:

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 09:40 AM

ok, how about this. a supercar is any automobile that does something, very very well. like for what we mostly talk about here, how well it performs on a track, or a related road. hjholter, i do believe the viper and vette do exactly what they were designed for, incredibly well. also he meant european cars, in europe. different engines over there, then the versions over here, unless your talking about things like the enzo for example.

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 09:46 AM

I see a supercar as something that is first expensive $200,000+ (AUD)
Power above 400kw. and looks like a enzo:p
Something that is more for track then road.
Take the HSV GTS fast car on road and track but it's a family car that goes fast which turns into a sporty high performance car.
then there was the HRT 427, they wanted to build it for one thing nock of the king as they seen was the Porsche GT3. It was a car that wasn't really of the streets.
It got a nickname Ozzilla:D

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 09:51 AM

but then there are so few supercars to love!

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 09:55 AM

Surprised.
What ones have you seen ?
Driven ??.
Done.

ANd have somethign weighing TWICE AS MUCH and get left as soon as the road got twisty.
One CLEAR defineition of a supercar is it has to be better on more than just a 1/4 mile !!

Incorrect. The LS1 weighs less than the turbo rotory in the Rx7 and produces more power. Try again. in fact, Jim Labreck is putting a naturally aspirated 650 horsepower LT1 ( do you know what that is?) into his Rx7 and it'll STILL wiegh less than the stock Turbo car, while being infinitely more drivable street or track. Start reading here>
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=135921&page=1&pp=15

Odd last comment. Every production car you've ever bought was a "turn-key".
Arguably you get BETTER production from a kit builder as they are dedicated and focussed and NOT someone being paid minimum wage in a mexican engine plant - or Ford's casting sub-contractor (ouch) !

Like you said, 'Arguably'. I'd rather have a car with a warrantee that I can finance and insure rather than something someone 'threw together in there garage'.

erm, NO, by a long way.
You've added PRICE in the equation to be able to have eny tenable argument.

I've added the the variable that affects whether or not someone owns one of these vehicles, as they don't give them away for free.

It's NOT that expensive to own a Porsche or Ferrari :)

it is when you're 22 and live in the states. at least I can buy parts for the 'vette or viper at my local Napa and install them myself, if necessary.

Donkervoort - it OWNS the Nordschliefe record.
Radical - it USED to own the record ( see above ) and the SR8 is coming to take it back.
And you knwo I don't consider any of those supercars because they are great MACHINES but lack a level of comfort and handalability.
Just like Vipers and Vettes on twisty roads.
Ferrari 612 - do it all and with space for 4 adults.

I've already made my point. You'll never call it a supercar without that marque.

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 09:56 AM

I dont like any car above $500,000 i think it's a tad overboard then:D

Slicks

12-22-2004, 10:04 AM

Wow, it seems like youve made a little friend there Marta ;)

Tell you waht SLicks, YOU explain why a Corvette or Viper is a SUPERCAR.

NOt a great sportscar, or good sportcar or good all rounder or any other mediocrity.
Justify them even being CONSIDERED a SUPERCAR.
Write down all the rason with a full explanation of why it merits it.
Go on, come on, do some work, waiting ........
Now now, lets not get too hasty. First everyones definition of a supercar is different. For me the only thing keeping the Corvette Z06 or the Viper SRT-10 out of the "supercar status" would be price. As you can see all supercars are very highpriced, were as these two are not. On top of that limited production comes to mind, which again these two are not.
Now about that engineering. It cant be the fact that both these cars use an OHV engine, because the Ultima GTR (a supercar by your stats) uses a Chevy OHV engine. And we've gone over this before, why would they do that? Weight, space, usable power. It cant be hp/l either, because again the Ultima doesnt sport that very well either (like hp/l matters...) Maybe its suspension? But the Viper SRT-10 uses coils, so it cant be that... (and the Z06's leafs work like a wonder according to every test driver) Maybe areodynamics? No, the Z06 has a CD of .29, and the Viper has a .31, the Mclaren F1 has a .34 so it cant be that... So exactly what is engineered "wrong"? What engineering is holding them back from being supercars?

Now to the handling, and again you havent proven to me that the Viper or Corvette dont "handle good" or good enough. In every article talking about handling usually the vette of viper play a role. Ive posted articles before, here. Great Grip! (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=221&page_number=3) The Road and Track article, where the Z06 is beaten by only 4 cars, 2 of which are much higherpriced(and one AWD too), one isnt offered in the US(euro spec elise), and one is an AWD rally car known for its great handling(and the vette beats it in all other categories, even EPA).
And the Viper is said to handle better than that. Viper vs Vette (http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0211_vv/index.html)
As you can see one of their high points is handling.
Now, why dont you, as Ive asked before, find me an article that says the vette and viper do NOT handle well.

It was you that wanted track times right? Ive got some.
The world famous Nurburgring.
7:54 Porsche GT3 (supercar?)
7:55 Caterhan R500 Superlight (supercar by your standards? Well, definetly a good track car, wouldnt you say?)
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (supercar?)
7:56 Corvette Z06
7:56 Corvette C6 (probably Z51)
7:59 Porsche 997 Carrera S
8:09 Ferrari 360 Modena
8:06 Caterham 7 Superlight R
8:09 Lamborghini Diablo SV (520hp)
8:10 Viper GTS ("only" 411hp, let me remind you, the SRT-10 has 500, and is a totally revised car)
8:13 Lotus Esprit Sport 350
8:17 Aston Martin V12 Vanquish

I will gladly provide more times if you wish.

OH yeah and as far as supercars goes dont forget we have the Mosler...

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 10:12 AM

Actually I stopped reading.

hjholter - you're a fanboy.

You really think dropping an engine into a car automatically makes it "better", which clearly doesnt' graps the balance necessary to make a great car.

It's possible to "overpower" a car and many of the super-tuned Vipers certainly didn't win awards for handling on roads as the suspension is stiffened so much to stop squat !!

You're blinded by bias and sadly you may never get the chance to actually experince a real lightweight performance car :(

Also you put SO many words into my mouth I'm in the mood for another "bitch-slapping" but hey it's Christmas and I got soem of it out of my systems yesterday.

Goodnight, you're blocked :)

Man, I already see that we will never agree, so I'll sum it up.

I'm the kid that turns into the man that says screw your cachet and your system and ends up building one of those super kit cars or doing something to satisfy my own urges automotively.

I can see the point of a lightwieght sports car, but I don't feel you should sacrafice power for lightwieght.. call me carol shelby or something, but suspension tuning must count for something :D !

As for putting words in your mouth, I'm forced to assume due to you being ambigious and subtle in your meaning. I'm a bit more direct than that.

and for the record, I am a fanboy: a performance fanboy.

but I'm all for beautiful automobiles, I think the corvettes are beautiful cars, but I think the Enzo is one UGLY mother. IMHO.

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 10:15 AM

If Jeremy Clarkson says that the HSV GTO is the best then it's the best and he did test a heap of coupes along his way and he hates all overseas cars to:D
My uncle had a camaro and vette, I don't know what he seen in them.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 10:23 AM

Slicks, Matra is a Eurosnob. He feels price was my only way to have a tenable arguement, yet that seems to be the only thing that seperates a Corvette or Viper from Supercar status, other than Cachet.

meaning, if the mark and the car doesn't confer some prestige or fame onto it's owner, its just not a supercar.

I'm taking this to mean you must be having a midlife crisis, or have to make up for something :rolleyes: to want a supercar.

Coventrysucks

12-22-2004, 10:27 AM

but I'm sure you're not interested in any non-eurotrash.

Well obviously. An American car? I don't people to think I'm American thank you very much. The only people I've seen in American cars in the UK are either American or David Beckham.

I like the way you try to make "Eurosnob" sound like an insult.

I have too much self respect to stoop to that level. :)

We do, we own the European companies that build them :D

Yeah right. I forgot that "you" owned VAG, FIAT, Pagani, BMW, Porsche etc.

I would much rather spend money on something of quality, and enjoy it whilst sat in traffic on the M25. I'll be able to sit back in my exceptionally comfortable connolly leather seat, turn up the bespoke Lynn stereo and think of you with your "performance and handling".

They are called "supercars" because they excel in every department.

Performance, Design, Engineering, Interior etc.

Even TVR can build better cars than the Vette and Viper. True they may break down occasionally, but when they decide to work, they are hugely fast, with race derived spaceframe chassis, totally hand crafted and bespoke interiors. The only reason that they cost more than a Vette or Viper is due to the exchange rates.

So why must GM and DaimlerChrysler compromise, with their huge reserves of cash?

Why must their flagship models be built to such a low specification?

The way you put your point across makes it sound as if there are pleanty of American companies with the ability to build a car as fast, or if not faster than any European supercar, with an interior just as nicely appointed, for a mere fraction of the cost.

Where are they then? Why aren't they being built? You can't have the Chrysler ME412, because that has a European chassis, engine and gearbox.

Quite frankly neither the Corvette or Viper is actually worth the money you pay for them. They are making a huge profit on those things, and laughing at you, the die-hard fans, who would buy it anyway just so you can wave your precious stripy flag about, and not be accused of being a "terrorist".

So what "supercars" are there in America apart from the Ford GT and Saleen S7 and Mosler?

Finally, to go even further off topic:

Because we have pride in our country and it's heritage? because we've served in the military? ****, I'm proud to be a redneck from the same area Alvin C York came from, and if you have a problem with it, deal. I mean, its better than being from Europe, which it seems we visit every now-and-again to make sure they don't all start speaking German. Not that thats a bad thing, meh.

It is this tiresome, non-stop repitition of "We are so great and saved your asses in wars" that makes America the butt of so many jokes.

It makes your country a laughing stock. I guess that makes you "proud"?

Why not come up with your own insults once in a while, rather than recycling the old cliches?

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 10:28 AM

Funny i didnt see him say that anywhere??

And your a yanker = a us yank = wanker:D But we wont hold that againts you for to long:p j/k:D Since you been so nice to other people from outside of the U.S:D

Matra et Alpine

12-22-2004, 10:28 AM

I can see the point of a lightwieght sports car, but I don't feel you should sacrafice power for lightwieght.. call me carol shelby or something, but suspension tuning must count for something :D !
Ok, lets take Carrol.
How did he make it BIG ?
By taking a lightweight chassis that was already working adn putting a BIG engine in it to match up to the onger straighter roads of the USA.
NOTE. he could have taken any chassis around but he saw the ebnefit of weight ( as in lack of )
Chapman proved THAT on every track in every race series on the planet :)

As for putting words in your mouth, I'm forced to assume due to you being ambigious and subtle in your meaning. I'm a bit more direct than that.

and for the record, I am a fanboy: a performance fanboy.

Sit your backside in a Caterham or Elise and you'll get the point about lightness versus solving it with power :0

but I'm all for beautiful automobiles, I think the corvettes are beautiful cars, but I think the Enzo is one UGLY mother. IMHO.
and looks are the MOST subjective of all variables.
I think Viper's are equally beautiful and the early vettes and stingrays were drool-worthy. They modern stuff isn't so nice.
You never answered whether it was US spec "Euro-boxes" you've driven.
The cars shipped to the US have their handling and engine's modified. It' s NOT the same car. Equally the Vipers and (presumably) vettes over here are different too.

Slicks, Matra is a Eurosnob.
woo-hoo I'm a Eurosnob.
ohh, the agony, I've been called a Eurosnpob by a redneck - ohh ouch aaarrrgh.

See the "redneck" comment probably doesn't fit you either.
BTW, go read some of the psots on what I actually drive and rally in, "snobbery" doesnt' coem into the equation :)
But hey a bit of truth might clean up those glasses.
Tell me do all glasses come in "rose tinted" as standard for 'vette fans ? :) :)

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 11:10 AM

Well obviously. An American car? I don't people to think I'm American thank you very much. The only people I've seen in American cars in the UK are either American or David Beckham.

Thank god! I'd die if someone mistook you for American.

I have too much self respect to stoop to that level. :)

lol or NO AMBITION WHATSOEVER! {its an old joke, you'll never understand!}

Yeah right. I forgot that "you" owned VAG, FIAT, Pagani, BMW, Porsche etc.

Nah, Just Saab, Vauxhall, Holden, Opel, plus a large share of Fiat, Fuji ( Subaru ) Izuzu and Suzuki ( thats GM ) Plus Volvo, Jaguar, Auston Marten, Land Rover and a good chunk of Mazda.

I would much rather spend money on something of quality, and enjoy it whilst sat in traffic on the M25. I'll be able to sit back in my exceptionally comfortable connolly leather seat, turn up the bespoke Lynn stereo and think of you with your "performance and handling".

And be jealous as hell of all the straight, wide roads that lead into twisty canyons surrounded by beautiful wilderness that I get to enjoy my performance and handling on :D

They are called "supercars" because they excel in every department.

Except pure performance, right? ;)

Performance, Design, Engineering, Interior etc.

already knocked the first one off, and I think the Enzo is ugly as, well you get the point, and the rest are opinions..

Even TVR can build better cars than the Vette and Viper. True they may break down occasionally, but when they decide to work, they are hugely fast, with race derived spaceframe chassis, totally hand crafted and bespoke interiors. The only reason that they cost more than a Vette or Viper is due to the exchange rates.

the fact that they have to 'decide' to work is something I could never live with. I think the reason they cost more is because they want us to pay outrageous prices for a car that may not decide to work today. I think you made my point quite well.. :D

So why must GM and DaimlerChrysler compromise, with their huge reserves of cash?
because most Americans don't want a supercar? in fact, most of them want something that takes them from point A to point B cheaply and reliably, most of the time not getting over 70 mph. And these same people are really hoping they can get decent Gas milage as well.

Why must their flagship models be built to such a low specification?

Demand? I mean people who bought them where satisfied with superior performance for less dollars. As time goes by they improve their cars and now, now GM is building a better Corvette and better Cadillacs to compete with the EuroTrash... but most of GM and Fords competition comes from Japan. Europe hasn't been able to build a cost effective Sedan to compete in the big market.. family cars!

The way you put your point across makes it sound as if there are pleanty of American companies with the ability to build a car as fast, or if not faster than any European supercar, with an interior just as nicely appointed, for a mere fraction of the cost.

As I am sure they are.

Where are they then? Why aren't they being built? You can't have the Chrysler ME412, because that has a European chassis, engine and gearbox.

Demand, for one? and why would I want the ME412? it's a Chrysler any way you slice it...

Quite frankly neither the Corvette or Viper is actually worth the money you pay for them. They are making a huge profit on those things, and laughing at you, the die-hard fans, who would buy it anyway just so you can wave your precious stripy flag about, and not be accused of being a "terrorist".

they are worth the money when you can't afford anything more.. and I'm not worried about being accused of being a terrorist.. I'm more afraid of being called European. and I love my stripy flag!

So what "supercars" are there in America apart from the Ford GT and Saleen S7 and Mosler?

You mean we need more?

It is this tiresome, non-stop repitition of "We are so great and saved your asses in wars" that makes America the butt of so many jokes.

I guess the truth hurts :rolleyes: Call me jingo-istic or the what, but you guys can't seem to defend yourselves. I don't know from where you hail, but you sound British or French, and either way, you're losers. and hey, not only am I American, but I'm an Irish/Dutch American.

It makes your country a laughing stock. I guess that makes you "proud"?
Why not come up with your own insults once in a while, rather than recycling the old cliches?
Because the old cliches are so true, and piss you off just the same :D
I mean we're America, like it or not, we've had the balls to break away and do our own thing and you guys hate that it seems. You hate America? Fine, but we aren't going to disapear, so... get over it :rolleyes:

Slicks

12-22-2004, 01:13 PM

I would much rather spend money on something of quality, and enjoy it whilst sat in traffic on the M25. I'll be able to sit back in my exceptionally comfortable connolly leather seat, turn up the bespoke Lynn stereo and think of you with your "performance and handling".

And you wonder why people buy SUVs...

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 01:46 PM

It is no shock, That the best cars from GM are built overseas :p

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 02:30 PM

um......can i just say something? stop the anti-american stuff, and make fun of hjholter without the "all american" stuff. seriously, just because we are roadster deprived people stuck around 20 trillion suv's........:p seriosuly tho, no more stereotypical american stuff, im offended by this racist sh*t, especially because im one of the non-redneck americans that other countries create the stereotypes about. im actually quite the opposite, im a normal intelligent mature person, and i really dont want to be labelled under "american redneck"

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 02:42 PM

There is no anti american here, And this redneck thing you talk about blame people like hjholter3 for that, If you read he is anti everything outside of the states;).
But i don't know why evertime this gets said ANTI-AMERICAN

Your country sucks shits your a bunch of baby killer i hate you guts you american scum bags you suck bad you dirty dogs... That's anti-American
Words above SlickHolden does not belive in they are just an example

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 02:47 PM

its not the explicit you look for in racism (except for things like the KKK). i definitly did see something along the lines of "redneck americans", and i just want it clear that i will NOT go under that label.

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 02:49 PM

He was the one that said he was a redneck and was proud of it, It's bad apples like that, That can stuff it up for the rest.
Aussie's people around the world think of us as beer drinkers srimp on the BBQ and kangaroo in backyard. I dont drink beer i dont have a BBQ and i dont have a kangaroo :D

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 02:51 PM

hjh said it himself?! specific quote please.
EDIT: wow we got off thread, hahha

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 03:00 PM

Ok hj called coventry a Euro-snob. Ruim then said i definetly hate "Go USA, Hill Billy Rednecks" guys like you!
hj response was ...
Because we have pride in our country and it's heritage? because we've served in the military? ****, I'm proud to be a redneck from the same area Alvin C York came from, and if you have a problem with it, deal. I mean, its better than being from Europe, which it seems we visit every now-and-again to make sure they don't all start speaking German. Not that thats a bad thing, meh.

all starts here... http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10129&page=9&pp=15

CdocZ

12-22-2004, 03:04 PM

dam rednecks, they give america a bad name

SlickHolden

12-22-2004, 03:05 PM

I just think he is a little over the top so early:D
But trust me all countrys have them, I know a Aussie redneck:eek:

Coventrysucks

12-22-2004, 05:13 PM

Thank god! I'd die if someone mistook you for American.

I feel ashamed to deny you the opportunity ;)

Nah, Just Saab, Vauxhall, Holden, Opel, plus a large share of Fiat, Fuji ( Subaru ) Izuzu and Suzuki ( thats GM ) Plus Volvo, Jaguar, Auston Marten, Land Rover and a good chunk of Mazda.

Yes, rather than build your own good cars, you had to buy them in. ;)

Funny thing: The other day out of mild curiosity I followed up on a hunch of mine.

Aston Martin, Jaguar and Land Rover are all still British companies, registered with Companies House.

And be jealous as hell of all the straight, wide roads that lead into twisty canyons surrounded by beautiful wilderness that I get to enjoy my performance and handling on :D

Handling? On a straight road? Good luck with your canyons!

I think the reason they cost more is because they want us to pay outrageous prices for a car that may not decide to work today. I think you made my point quite well.. :D [QUOTE=Hjholter3]

How much more do you think they cost?
Most of them are in the £30-50 range. Prime Corvette country.
The lack of reliability is largely due to a batch of faulty components that were fairly critical to the successful operation of the engine. Blame the suppliers for not building it to spec, and TVR for not sorting it properly.

Aside from that, the TVRs are a league ahead of the Vette. Yet they make 2000 odd cars a year, with a range of 5 cars. They are all hand built. They are almost completely bespoke - all major components are build by or for TVR, there are no parts-bin specials here. The engines are based on motorsport technology. The paint jobs alone can be nearly 1/10th the price of the car.

Yet, a massed produced Corvette, with the might of Cheverolet's knowledge, "simple" engineering and general air of a budget costs as much? I don't think so. You are being ripped off, plain and simple.

[QUOTE=Hjholter3]because most Americans don't want a supercar?

Following your logic - everyone in Europe wants a supercar?

That doesn't make sense. America and Europe have their share of people who want an A - B car.

Surely there must be a segment of American society that wants a supercar?
Why else would Lotus spend 10x the original development of the Elise in making it "Americanised"?

The USA is Porsche's biggest market, as with most supercar manufacturers.
Corvette's obviously aren't enough.

An American version of Porsche or Ferrari would make a killing - WHY IS THERE NOT ONE??!!!

Someone please answer that question.

There obviously IS a market.
Is there no ability? Can America simply not build a decent supercar?
The Ford GT hints otherwise.

I'm more afraid of being called European.

I know. All this mutual respect for other cultures is so bad. Its amazing that we haven't all killed ourselves yet, we're that backward.

I don't know from where you hail, but you sound British or French, and either way, you're losers. and hey, not only am I American, but I'm an Irish/Dutch American.

Hmmm. Typing in fluet English, better than some Americans I have known, and my location says UK.

Yep, French as they come. I'm surprised the sound of Frogs bemoaning the loss of their legs didn't give it away.

And you are Irish-Dutch eh? And you say that Europeans are losers
Why... surely... that must make YOU a loser too!

Welcome to the club. Your membership pack is in the post! :)

clutch-monkey

12-22-2004, 05:19 PM

I guess the truth hurts :rolleyes: Call me jingo-istic or the what, but you guys can't seem to defend yourselves. I don't know from where you hail, but you sound British or French, and either way, you're losers. and hey, not only am I American, but I'm an Irish/Dutch American.

your giving us dutch a bad name....i'll just blame the irish part then :)

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 08:57 PM

dam rednecks, they give america a bad name
And how is that? I mean there are rednecks in everystate, call them what you will. I'm from a rural area of Tennessee, if that makes me a redneck, so be it. And I'm proud to be an American, and happy to be me.

But if you want to debate some finer points, please learn to type actual sentences and use proper grammar, maybe even correcting a spelling error.

You give us Americans a bad name.

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 09:01 PM

your giving us dutch a bad name....i'll just blame the irish part then :)

Because I have pride in country or because I disagree with popular opinion on an internet message board? I don't think anyone saw or understood what I was saying ( mutual respect and all :rolleyes: ) but my point was there... I guess I'm getting subtle in my old age.

clutch-monkey

12-22-2004, 10:54 PM

yes! too subtle. you need repetition and concise language

Slicks

12-22-2004, 11:14 PM

An American version of Porsche or Ferrari would make a killing - WHY IS THERE NOT ONE??!!!

Someone please answer that question.

I cant tell if you were answering your own question there or not, so Ill try and answer that.
Lets start with the Elise, the only thing "americanized" about it was so it could be sold here legally. Saftey regulations, emissions etc. So Porsche and Ferrari by that sence are "americanized", they can be sold here legally. Maybe you mean "americanized" in the sence of brutal? Porshces and Ferraris are very rarly bought for performance, its all about the image. I hope that answered the question.

I know. All this mutual respect for other cultures is so bad. Its amazing that we haven't all killed ourselves yet, we're that backward.
I have to butt in on this one..
Its kinda funny you say that, cause this is one of the few forums that im on with a majority of europeans. And I must say, I have definetly been insaulted here the most over all other forums combined. You claim to be "all respectful" while the brits are making fun of every possible american thing they can think of. Ive heard uncountable remarks about US people being overweight, and just out of no where, for no true reason. Truly if you were to ask any American who has been on this forum for a while they would say the exact opposite of what you just said. I actually had someone PM me asking about why these euro kids are so hateful. You call us "stupid" constantly, and after Bush won the election I remember a european magazine stating something like "how are X amount of people so stupid? (for electing Bush)"
What makes you think that we dont respect other cultures? Because we went to war with Iraq? You know that had nothing to do with culture(unless you think its ok to kill your own people for fun)...
Your media gives us a bad name, and of couse you guys believe every word of it...
Let me ask you, what drives you so to hate us with such passion?

clutch-monkey

12-22-2004, 11:17 PM

i hate bush, not americans

Hjholter3

12-22-2004, 11:58 PM

Yes, rather than build your own good cars, you had to buy them in. ;)

Yep, and borrow their technology, and take a cut of the profit when they make a sale :D

Funny thing: The other day out of mild curiosity I followed up on a hunch of mine.
Aston Martin, Jaguar and Land Rover are all still British companies, registered with Companies House.

Doesn't mean we don't own 'em :D

Handling? On a straight road? Good luck with your canyons!

Performance on a straight road is more related to horsepower and Torque, and if I'm in Corvette or a Viper, then no need for luck, as my skill and the inherient capability of the car will carry me through :D

How much more do you think they cost?
Most of them are in the £30-50 range. Prime Corvette country.
The lack of reliability is largely due to a batch of faulty components that were fairly critical to the successful operation of the engine. Blame the suppliers for not building it to spec, and TVR for not sorting it properly.

Okay, 30,000.00 GBP= 57,549.38 USD. So thats more expensive for the base model TVR than the Z51 Corvette, and probably close to the price of the ZO6.
So no, that isn't prime Corvette territory, not when it costs more in it's home country than a corvette here.. :rolleyes:

Now you talk about the 'TVR' being bespoke, so I assume that means better quality control, right? But no. instead, you have a car that you pay more for, that may not start everytime due to the engine not operating 'successfuly' from a company that obviously can't take care of their buisness.

Aside from that, the TVRs are a league ahead of the Vette. Yet they make 2000 odd cars a year, with a range of 5 cars. They are all hand built. They are almost completely bespoke - all major components are build by or for TVR, there are no parts-bin specials here. The engines are based on motorsport technology. The paint jobs alone can be nearly 1/10th the price of the car.

A league ahead for what adds up to a limited production sports car that
costs more than a Corvette and has more quality control issues. oh yeah, what a steal :rolleyes:

Yet, a massed produced Corvette, with the might of Cheverolet's knowledge, "simple" engineering and general air of a budget costs as much? I don't think so. You are being ripped off, plain and simple.

Maybe you're paying more over there for a sports car that has more technical issues. You could be getting ripped off!

Following your logic - everyone in Europe wants a supercar?
That doesn't make sense. America and Europe have their share of people who want an A - B car.

No, a larger percentage wants an A-to-B car, but Americans fortunantly own the companies that make most of the A-B cars over in Europe.

Surely there must be a segment of American society that wants a supercar?
Why else would Lotus spend 10x the original development of the Elise in making it "Americanised"?

You mean they put a Toyota engine in and make it hold up to America's crash standards... hmm. And I'm sorry, anything with a naturally aspirated Toyota Celica 4 cylinder can't possibly be considered a supercar. sorry.

The USA is Porsche's biggest market, as with most supercar manufacturers.
Corvette's obviously aren't enough.

A Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, a Porsche is a FASHION STATEMENT.

An American version of Porsche or Ferrari would make a killing - WHY IS THERE NOT ONE??!!!

Because those who could afford a supercar want a car with 'Cachet' or will confer prestige on them with its ownership. Why would any large domestic company jump into a market where there is so much competition and so little possible profit, other than to build halo cars?

Someone please answer that question.

done.

There obviously IS a market.
Is there no ability? Can America simply not build a decent supercar?
The Ford GT hints otherwise.

The GT is a halo car, built to sell more a-to-B cars by the end of the day.

I know. All this mutual respect for other cultures is so bad. Its amazing that we haven't all killed ourselves yet, we're that backward.

You tried, twice :rolleyes: maybe you've learned from that.

Hmmm. Typing in fluet English, better than some Americans I have known, and my location says UK.

In your dialect of English, and almost as well as I.

Yep, French as they come. I'm surprised the sound of Frogs bemoaning the loss of their legs didn't give it away.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.. :rolleyes:

And you are Irish-Dutch eh? And you say that Europeans are losers
Why... surely... that must make YOU a loser too!

I said the English and the French are losers.. you give Germany, Russian and Sweden a bad name. Please, no need to misquote me :rolleyes:

Welcome to the club. Your membership pack is in the post! :)
thank ya ever-so much!

Spastik_Roach

12-23-2004, 02:07 AM

A Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, a Porsche is a FASHION STATEMENT.

Put that exactly the other way round and you'd be right.

Porsche owners will quite often explore the handling possiblities of their car. Corvettes owners....well...err... maybe have a street race against a 'stang?

You mean they put a Toyota engine in and make it hold up to America's crash standards... hmm. And I'm sorry, anything with a naturally aspirated Toyota Celica 4 cylinder can't possibly be considered a supercar. sorry.

But I bet if they had put the GenIII V8 in it you would've considered it absolutely brilliant. Incase you don't know, the GENIII is in alot of models of the best selling car in New Zealand and Australia, the Holden Commodore, so you can't say its a not very common engine.

Now you talk about the 'TVR' being bespoke, so I assume that means better quality control, right? But no. instead, you have a car that you pay more for, that may not start everytime due to the engine not operating 'successfuly' from a company that obviously can't take care of their buisness.

I dare say in probably any country in the world (Even Britain probably) A TVR Tuscan, T350c, pretty much any modern TVR would attract a helluva lot more attention than a Corvette.

Personally I'd prefer a car that needed T.L.C than a car thats got technology in places so out-dated its not funny (Can you say Leaf Springs?)

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 02:48 AM

Put that exactly the other way round and you'd be right.
Porsche owners will quite often explore the handling possiblities of their car. Corvettes owners....well...err... maybe have a street race against a 'stang?

Maybe in Kiwi-land, but most Porsche owners here see them as a fast way to get to and from the country club. Its a STATUS SYMBOL, something bought because it is expensive. Most of the corvette owners I know take their cars to track days.

But I bet if they had put the GenIII V8 in it you would've considered it absolutely brilliant. Incase you don't know, the GENIII is in alot of models of the best selling car in New Zealand and Australia, the Holden Commodore, so you can't say its a not very common engine.

Well duh, the LS1 in the F-body application makes 320 Horsepower at flywheel, so I would consider it brilliant. It'd be a flyweight sports car with decent power output and an awesome sound!

And I never said the LS1 was uncommon, and I KNOW Holden uses the engine in it's utes and the Commodore..

I dare say in probably any country in the world (Even Britain probably) A TVR Tuscan, T350c, pretty much any modern TVR would attract a helluva lot more attention than a Corvette.

Maybe because they are rare? and don't run well enough to really go far?
Whichever the case may be, I would never want one.

Just so you Euro's, Aussies, and whomever else will know: I will not kiss Euro ass. I refuse. To be honest I can see the flaws of the Corvette as well as anyone else, but needless to say, it does exactly what it is intended to do, does it well and obliterates any other factory built ( non-kit ) car within 10K dollars of its price.

I feel you put far too much emphasis on 'catchet' and value a Euro-marque more than actual performance.

But hey, I used to think Ferrari's and the Various other Pasta/Kraut rockets where really cool too, but that was back when I was 10.

Personally I'd prefer a car that needed T.L.C than a car thats got technology in places so out-dated its not funny (Can you say Leaf Springs?)
Then I hope you have anouther daily driver, 'cause you don't sound like the type that has ever wrenched on anything of their own.
But hey, if you like cars that need T.L.C I hear hugo makes a great line of automobiles, and the French make cars as well, I here :rolleyes:
As for outdated technology.. We use a naturally aspirated pushrod engine to make 320 HP an 380 ft.lbs of torque.. and you can buy one here for as little as 6500 American dollars.. and do fun stuff like this :D

Question: What would a BMW 325 run like with an American 400 hp V8?

http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/sean_m3_08_thm.jpg + http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/LS6_thm.jpg + http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/T56_thm.jpg = SWEET!

Answer: Like a scalded ape!

I'm sure we could slide one into a TVR.. then we'd have a REAL Sports car :D

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 02:54 AM

You mean they put a Toyota engine in and make it hold up to America's crash standards... hmm. And I'm sorry, anything with a naturally aspirated Toyota Celica 4 cylinder can't possibly be considered a supercar. sorry.
Why does cylinders matter ? power/weight MATTERS :)
The car already passed crash tests, where did you here they duid anything for it ?
Sadly they added electric windows and carpets and CD players - all weight :( Colin will be getting dizzy :(
Don't know of ANYONE who'd class an Elise as a supercar because it's a focussed performance sports car. It's the power/weight and handling focus that makes it the winner. It DOES sound as if the US market is wanting to add trappings that suggest "supercar". Bad idea !!

A Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, a Porsche is a FASHION STATEMENT.
Hmmm Porsche CGT v. Corvette - you should check out the Top Gear lap times :)
Heard of the 959 ? 962 ??
Porsche has supplied a variety of vehicles offering a very wide range of capabilities on and off track and road.
Helluva lot lower cost-of-ownership than Italian-stabled cars too :)

Because those who could afford a supercar want a car with 'Cachet' or will confer prestige on them with its ownership. Why would any large domestic company jump into a market where there is so much competition and so little possible profit, other than to build halo cars?

They all seem to be trying :)

I said the English .......are losers..
Good man !! For once I'm happy about the lack of geographical and political knowledge :)

clutch-monkey

12-23-2004, 03:22 AM

To be honest I can see the flaws of the Corvette as well as anyone else, but needless to say, it does exactly what it is intended to do, does it well and obliterates any other factory built ( non-kit ) car within 10K dollars of its price.

isn't the corvette halfway to being a kit car itself? like isn't made of fibreglass?

Spastik_Roach

12-23-2004, 05:00 AM

Spastik_Roach

12-23-2004, 05:03 AM

Putting a pushrod v8 in a 325 would be like putting a monkeys brain in Albert Einstein :D

SlickHolden

12-23-2004, 05:12 AM

I'd still back a R8 or HSV GTO in over the Vette:D
And i would save $$ Also:D

fpv_gtho

12-23-2004, 05:14 AM

Well BMW pushes 343hp out of a 3.2l Straight Six :D

Thats about 57hp per cylinder

So if you added 2 extra cylinders N/A and still at 3.2l it would have approx 456hp!

And if you happend to make it 5.7l you would have approx 609hp!

That wouldnt work though. Theoretically an 8 cylinder version of the M3's engine using ~57hp per cylinder would produce that 456hp if it also had the equivalent of 2 cylinders extra capacity, which would push it up to ~4.3L.

Although a 3.2L V8 in an M3 would be theoretically able to rev alot higher han the I6 so a figure somewhere between 343hp and 456hp

Turbonutter55

12-23-2004, 05:57 AM

Hj, this is what I call a nice car. The Morgan Aero 8 GT.
330 horsepower, 1 ton. Can you rednecks work out the power-to-weight?
As opposed to your Corvette c6, 272 horsepower/ton.
AND the morgan, unlike your Corvette, will actually handle. You get a wood-and-leather interior, an un-muffled, heavily-tuned BMW engine, and a track time faster than a Lamborghini, for 120k (in dollars). And not an American part in there.

P.S. I have U.S. citizenship. I like musclecars, but they are not the be-all and end-all of performance.

-TN55, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving liberal extraordinaire.

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 06:00 AM

Okay, 30,000.00 GBP= 57,549.38 USD. So thats more expensive for the base model TVR than the Z51 Corvette, and probably close to the price of the ZO6.
So no, that isn't prime Corvette territory, not when it costs more in it's home country than a corvette here.. :rolleyes:

Don't try to be smart here, because you just failed.

£30,000 = $57,650 now, why? Because of exchange rates.
About a month ago that would have been $48,000.

Besides that, you can't even buy a TVR in America because they are too unsafe apparently. Not enough gasbags.

So going by UK prices, yes the Corvette and TVR are in exactly the same price bracket.

A league ahead for what adds up to a limited production sports car that
costs more than a Corvette and has more quality control issues. oh yeah, what a steal :rolleyes:

When you look at it objectively, which you don't seem to be able to do, the value of materials and labour costs on the TVR alone are worth MORE than the Corvette.

Ignore the fact that not all TVRs give 100% trouble free motoring. Lets be honest here, a Corvette never broke down?.

If TVR can make a profit on a car that is bespoke and hand build using expensive bits, how much do you think Chevy are making on their mass produced "cheap" Corvette?

Far too much is the answer.

Lotus build the Elise with an expensive bonded aluminium chassis, yet they can still charge £20,000 less than the Corvette.(UK)

A Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, a Porsche is a FASHION STATEMENT.

Yes, I forgot that it was a fashion statement, I was too busy looking at how many GT races the 911 has dominated this year, and all of the awards for "best sportscar" that the 911 has won.

Why would any large domestic company jump into a market where there is so much competition and so little possible profit, other than to build halo cars?

No, that isn't a satisfactory answer.

I suppose your right though, if all American manufacturers are looking to make $10,000 profit on every car it would be hard for them to do.

I said the English and the French are losers

Oh, that's ok then. I'd hate to think you were one of these people who dismiss the population of two entire countries as "losers" with no basis.

But seeing as your are a "patriot" I'll let you off, as I know how they can be if you actually admit to liking people from "foreign".

thank ya ever-so much!

I shall find "Ya" and thank him personally as per your request.

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 06:23 AM

Lets start with the Elise, the only thing "americanized" about it was so it could be sold here legally. Saftey regulations, emissions etc. So Porsche and Ferrari by that sence are "americanized", they can be sold here legally. Maybe you mean "americanized" in the sence of brutal? Porshces and Ferraris are very rarly bought for performance, its all about the image. I hope that answered the question.

No, not an American version, but an American company that builds American rivals to Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini.

You can't tell me that wouldn't be good.

How much bragging would you be able to do if America decided to actually put passion before profit for a change?

You claim to be "all respectful" while the brits are making fun of every possible american thing they can think of. Ive heard uncountable remarks about US people being overweight, and just out of no where, for no true reason.

It isn't true that America is a nation of excess?

You call us "stupid" constantly, and after Bush won the election I remember a european magazine stating something like "how are X amount of people so stupid? (for electing Bush)"

Again, you forget that Bush is a laughing stock. Very few outside of America has any respect for him. I direct you to the poll that had Kerry winning by as much as 70% in some countries.

And besides, you can bet the same publication was calling the majority of the British population "stupid" for electing Labour again. But you don't see that, so you assume...

What makes you think that we dont respect other cultures?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe it is because every time I see things written by Americans about Europe it contains remarks about:
1) How the French are a bunch of useless surrender-monkeys
2) How bad British dental hygene is
3) How you "saved our asses in WWII"

There is little or no respect paid to the fact that we live in different societies to you. On the whole Americans seem to expect us to be just like them, but with different accents.

Your media gives us a bad name, and of couse you guys believe every word of it...

Our media? You forget that we also get your media, and your TV dramas, your films, your books, and all of America that is on the internet.

We belive every word of that as well?

Let me ask you, what drives you so to hate us with such passion?

I don't hate America or Americans.

I do try to refrain from insults, and when I don't I try not to make sweeping generalisations about entire populations. Unlike some I could mention.

I hate stupid people who come on here and act like America is the greatest, and that the Corvette and Viper are the best cars in the world, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. And accuse us of being "Eurotrash" "losers" and "stupid" because we see fit to disagree with their standpoints.

Whether they are American, British, French, Japanese or Australian. I hate them all. ;)

SlickHolden

12-23-2004, 07:37 AM

.

I hate stupid people who come on here and act like America is the greatest, and that the Corvette and Viper are the best cars in the world, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. And accuse us of being "Eurotrash" "losers" and "stupid" because we see fit to disagree with their standpoints.
You forgot Euro-Snob ;)

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 07:59 AM

Our media? You forget that we also get your media, and your TV dramas, your films, your books, and all of America that is on the internet.
And the news channels.
I will often watch CNN or ABC or Bloomberg and occasionally even Fox.
As well as Deutche Welle and EuroNews

Most folks I know ( admittedly most are engineers/managers for multinationals or export companies ) view overseas news channels too.

So some of us can laugh along WITH you about Fox - scary if that was the only 'news; someone watched :)

SlickHolden

12-23-2004, 08:02 AM

And the news channels.
I will often watch CNN or ABC or Bloomberg and occasionally even Fox.
As well as Deutche Welle and EuroNews

Most folks I know ( admittedly most are engineers/managers for multinationals or export companies ) view overseas news channels too.

So some of us can laugh along WITH you about Fox - scary if that was the only 'news; someone watched :)
I get that crap also it's slow.
Did you know america was at war on there own???:p

Slicks

12-23-2004, 10:51 AM

Why does cylinders matter ? power/weight MATTERS :)
The car already passed crash tests, where did you here they duid anything for it ?
Sadly they added electric windows and carpets and CD players - all weight :( Colin will be getting dizzy :(
Don't know of ANYONE who'd class an Elise as a supercar because it's a focussed performance sports car. It's the power/weight and handling focus that makes it the winner. It DOES sound as if the US market is wanting to add trappings that suggest "supercar". Bad idea !!
Cylinders dont matter, power and most importantly torque matter. And thats why he was hitting on that engine. Its powerband is a joke...
BTW, i havent seen CD players, power windows, or carpet in an Elise yet... (yes i have been to my lotus dealership)

Hmmm Porsche CGT v. Corvette - you should check out the Top Gear lap times :)
Heard of the 959 ? 962 ??
Porsche has supplied a variety of vehicles offering a very wide range of capabilities on and off track and road.
Helluva lot lower cost-of-ownership than Italian-stabled cars too :)

Oh yeah a CGT...Wait, remind me how much those are :rolleyes:

Slicks

12-23-2004, 10:52 AM

isn't the corvette halfway to being a kit car itself? like isn't made of fibreglass?
Its a kit car because its made of fiber glass??? Thats the stupidest thing ive every heard...

Slicks

12-23-2004, 10:56 AM

Well BMW pushes 343hp out of a 3.2l Straight Six :D

Thats about 57hp per cylinder

So if you added 2 extra cylinders N/A and still at 3.2l it would have approx 456hp!

And if you happend to make it 5.7l you would have approx 609hp!

So before you go showing off your engine, make sure there isn't a engine that'll totally kick its ass.

True, a M3 engine is more exspensive, but here you can pick up a M3 for cheaper than a new Corvette...
Why dont you just compare hp/l now? Why not compare the color of the engines too!!!
Guess what champ, the LS1 is LIGHTER than the big ass I6, and it has a usable powerband!
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1bmw1.asp

Slicks

12-23-2004, 11:19 AM

No, not an American version, but an American company that builds American rivals to Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini.

You can't tell me that wouldn't be good.

How much bragging would you be able to do if America decided to actually put passion before profit for a change?

Not much if this "passion" cost more and gave less performance. We have passion when building sports cars, BTW interior quality is NOT passion.

It isn't true that America is a nation of excess?

Who told you that, your media? No where do we say were better than anyone else, you may ASSUME that we think that, but we do not.

Again, you forget that Bush is a laughing stock. Very few outside of America has any respect for him. I direct you to the poll that had Kerry winning by as much as 70% in some countries.

And besides, you can bet the same publication was calling the majority of the British population "stupid" for electing Labour again. But you don't see that, so you assume...
I never said Bush was smart ( i didnt vote for him) But you dont have to call people names because of thier beliefs. BTW im not assuming anything, I said that one of your magazines called us stupid, i never said they didnt call anyone else stupid...

Gee, I don't know. Maybe it is because every time I see things written by Americans about Europe it contains remarks about:
1) How the French are a bunch of useless surrender-monkeys
2) How bad British dental hygene is
3) How you "saved our asses in WWII"

There is little or no respect paid to the fact that we live in different societies to you. On the whole Americans seem to expect us to be just like them, but with different accents.
The only time I ever see any of that is when you guys make fun of America for some reason. Then both sides get all pissy and start fighting.
And the only thing i can think of that points to brits have bad teeth is the movie Austin Powers, where Austin is actually the only one with bad teeth, yet not the only Brit in the movie.

Our media? You forget that we also get your media, and your TV dramas, your films, your books, and all of America that is on the internet.

We belive every word of that as well?

Not after seeing yours :rolleyes:

I don't hate America or Americans.

I do try to refrain from insults, and when I don't I try not to make sweeping generalisations about entire populations. Unlike some I could mention.

I hate stupid people who come on here and act like America is the greatest, and that the Corvette and Viper are the best cars in the world, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. And accuse us of being "Eurotrash" "losers" and "stupid" because we see fit to disagree with their standpoints.

Whether they are American, British, French, Japanese or Australian. I hate them all. ;)
Trully I have not seen anyone who has done that. Sure people will say "im proud to be American" but does that mean its the best? You guys always assume the worst.
And I have yet to see anyone claim the Viper or Corvette are the best, but definetly much better than what you give credit for.
People call other "eurotrash" etc. not because you dont share the same viewpoints, but the fact that you present them as the ONLY viewpoint. Like Bush for example...

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 02:27 PM

We have passion when building sports cars

Obviously not, since there are hardly any dedicated sportscar builders in the USA.

There are well over 40 car companies building sports cars in the UK. How many in the US?

Come on, a list please. I am genuinely interested in all these American Sports cars.

BTW interior quality is NOT passion.

Why not?

If you see a car with an incredibly well built cabin, would you think:

a) Hmm, this car company is just building cars to make money.

b) This car company is so passionate about building cars that they have spent the time making this cabin the best that they could.

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 02:53 PM

You mean they put a Toyota engine in and make it hold up to America's crash standards... hmm. And I'm sorry, anything with a naturally aspirated Toyota Celica 4 cylinder can't possibly be considered a supercar. sorry.

Cylinders dont matter, power and most importantly torque matter. And thats why he was hitting on that engine. Its powerband is a joke...
BTW, i havent seen CD players, power windows, or carpet in an Elise yet... (yes i have been to my lotus dealership)

Oh yeah a CGT...Wait, remind me how much those are :rolleyes:

See that first bit above Slicsk, THAT is the bit you forgot to read.

Now do you see past the mist to the point in the statement ?

Power band - please post the Lotus power and torque bands along with the Viper and Vette for comparison please. Let's say within 20% of peak is the flat area and get back to us with the rev ranges of all 3. Thanks.

Re the "add-ons", it was a comment from a mate with an Exige who said that Lotus US were asking for them to be added. Seemingly it's the earliest questions !!

No other citation for you on it Slicks so you just take it as pure lies and you'll be fine :)

Haven't we put theis "value for money" nonsense aside yet ?
Fine, it's the only way a Vette and Ciper can be compared but once you get enough money to buy a second or third car for 'fun' then price becomes much less of an issue :) Brothers wife has just bought him a Bentley GT - ffs gotta go visit soon :)

SlickHolden

12-23-2004, 04:11 PM

Why dont you just compare hp/l now? Why not compare the color of the engines too!!!
Guess what champ, the LS1 is LIGHTER than the big ass I6, and it has a usable powerband!
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1bmw1.asp
Well we can always go for the I6Turbo in the BA XR6T:D or the Typhoon:D

clutch-monkey

12-23-2004, 04:16 PM

Its a kit car because its made of fiber glass??? Thats the stupidest thing ive every heard...

well thats basically what a kit car is, right? a light car made predominantly of composites/fibreglass. my point was that the other guy was deriding kit cars when his beloved corvette actually has some of their attributes.

Slicks

12-23-2004, 04:48 PM

Obviously not, since there are hardly any dedicated sportscar builders in the USA.

There are well over 40 car companies building sports cars in the UK. How many in the US?

Come on, a list please. I am genuinely interested in all these American Sports cars.
Because the UK has more companies building sports cars then those companies are more "passionate?" How does that work out?
BTW when you say "Sports cars" are you refering to two seater RWD (or AWD) cars? Or just anything "sporty."

Why not?

If you see a car with an incredibly well built cabin, would you think:

a) Hmm, this car company is just building cars to make money.

b) This car company is so passionate about building cars that they have spent the time making this cabin the best that they could.
B) People build cars for money... Even if one certain car they make isnt directly for profit (like the Enzo) its for reputation which inturn leads to profit.

Slicks

12-23-2004, 05:22 PM

See that first bit above Slicsk, THAT is the bit you forgot to read.

Now do you see past the mist to the point in the statement ?

Acutally I did read that, and again he not saying that cylinders matter. He was simply stating that the 4 banger celica engine in the Elise is one thing holding it back from being a supercar.

Power band - please post the Lotus power and torque bands along with the Viper and Vette for comparison please. Let's say within 20% of peak is the flat area and get back to us with the rev ranges of all 3. Thanks.

No problem
Elise (http://www.puresportscar.com/gallery/data/506/2Lotus-Elise-vs-Celica-Dyno-med.jpg)
Z06 (the red lines are stock) (http://www.corvettec5.com/store/380rwhp.jpg)
Viper SRT-10 (http://www.viperalley.com/viperinfo/vimages/500-dynosheet-large.jpg)
That took about 5 minutes to find...
BTW even with the Elise's super tiny gearing (4.53:1 final drive) it holds a pathetic 5mph rolling to 60mph run of 5.8 seconds (and thats with the optional sports package)

Re the "add-ons", it was a comment from a mate with an Exige who said that Lotus US were asking for them to be added. Seemingly it's the earliest questions !!

No other citation for you on it Slicks so you just take it as pure lies and you'll be fine :)
Never took it as a lie, just never heard about it.

Haven't we put theis "value for money" nonsense aside yet ?
Fine, it's the only way a Vette and Viper can be compared but once you get enough money to buy a second or third car for 'fun' then price becomes much less of an issue :) Brothers wife has just bought him a Bentley GT - ffs gotta go visit soon :)
Its only "nonsence" to you because you dont like the fact that an american car is beating european cars for a fraction of the cost... Just give it up, they are great cars and nothing says otherwise (unless you can fulfill my very old request of proving it wrong)

Slicks

12-23-2004, 05:29 PM

well thats basically what a kit car is, right? a light car made predominantly of composites/fibreglass. my point was that the other guy was deriding kit cars when his beloved corvette actually has some of their attributes.
Kit cars can be made of anything the builder chooses. And no, they dont have to be light either. What makes them a kit car is simply that they are a "kit" that the owner/builder puts together. Like take the Pontiac Fiero for example, there were many kits made for this car so it can resemble other cars, like ferraris etc. Kit cars are also usually use various parts from various cars.
For someone to own a Noble legally over here they have to claim it as a kit car. They must order the body and drivetrain seperatly from a company (cant remember its name now...) and build it up as a kit car. They do this because kit cars do not have to pass saftey tests here, as the Noble as is does not pass US saftey regulations.

So in all the Corvette is in no way a kit car, or holds any attributes to one.

charged

12-23-2004, 05:32 PM

In response to Porsches not used at track cars but corvettes are?.Never heard of the Porsche Cup?,Carrera Cup?,GT Cup?.I see lots of Porsches at local tracks,never see any corvettes on the track,only in the car park posing :D

Slicks

12-23-2004, 05:35 PM

In response to Porches not used as track cars but corvettes are?.Never heard of the Porsche Cup?,Carrera Cup?,GT Cup?.I see lots of Porches at local tracks,never see any corvettes on the track,only in the car park posing :D
Porsches on tracks as in NOT being raced by Porsche themselves but by an owner that bought the car.
Are Corvettes even sold legally in Australia? That would make sence that you would see more porshces than vettes....

charged

12-23-2004, 05:41 PM

Porsches on tracks as in NOT being raced by Porsche themselves but by an owner that bought the car.
Are Corvettes even sold legally in Australia? That would make sence that you would see more porshces than vettes....In Australia we have various multi make race classes,nations cup,gt performance have all different makes of car Ferraris,subaru,nissan,lambo's,etc no corvettes.I see 6 to 12 national meetings a year never see a Vette in marque sports,sports car etc race classes,but heaps of Porsches.Even local practice days or come and try days no vettes.They can be exported here,but the people importing them certainly dont use them as a sports car,more a fashion statment.Sad really

Spastik_Roach

12-23-2004, 06:03 PM

BTW even with the Elise's super tiny gearing (4.53:1 final drive) it holds a pathetic 5mph rolling to 60mph run of 5.8 seconds (and thats with the optional sports package)

You bloody Americans just don't get it.

That is perfectly adequate for a car thats main intention is HANDLING! Through the bends, round the hairpin! Yaaargh!!

And don't you think thats pretty fast for a car powered by (Shock Horror) A JAPANESE MANUFACTURER?

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 06:05 PM

In Australia we have various multi make race classes,nations cup,gt performance have all different makes of car Ferraris,subaru,nissan,lambo's,etc no corvettes.I see 6 to 12 national meetings a year never see a Vette in marque sports,sports car etc race classes,but heaps of Porsches.Even local practice days or come and try days no vettes.They can be exported here,but the people importing them certainly dont use them as a sports car,more a fashion statment.Sad really

1. Can you buy a Corvette at a dealership?

Probably not. Can you buy a Porsche at a dealership? probably so.
that would explain why you see more Porsches...

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 06:16 PM

Hj, this is what I call a nice car. The Morgan Aero 8 GT.
330 horsepower, 1 ton. Can you rednecks work out the power-to-weight?
I did that in my head, but I'm sure you needed a Calculator.. ;)

As opposed to your Corvette c6, 272 horsepower/ton.
AND the morgan, unlike your Corvette, will actually handle. You get a wood-and-leather interior, an un-muffled, heavily-tuned BMW engine, and a track time faster than a Lamborghini, for 120k (in dollars). And not an American part in there..
And you pay, what, nearly 3 times the cost of a basemodel corvette for some wood bits, a nice cut of leather, and a BMW engine. How is that attractive?

P.S. I have U.S. citizenship. I like musclecars, but they are not the be-all and end-all of performance.

Nor did I say they are, where, or would ever be. Maybe you just assumed that due to my defense of the 'Vette I love musclecars. so..
1. Get your head out of your ass.
2. Realize the Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, not a MUSCLE CAR.

-TN55, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving liberal extraordinaire.
I'm a bit liberal myself, but a Volvo? FWD?

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 06:22 PM

Because the UK has more companies building sports cars then those companies are more "passionate?" How does that work out?
BTW when you say "Sports cars" are you refering to two seater RWD (or AWD) cars? Or just anything "sporty."

Stop coming up with weak arguments and avioding the questions.

Most of the sports car firms in the UK deal in front engined, rear wheel drive cars, some mid engined.

There are probably close to a hundred car companies in the UK building their own cars (not tuning), or providing the parts for them semi-built (kit cars).

How many of them actually make a decent profit? VERY few.

So why are they doing it, if not passion and love of cars.

Obviously it isn't for profit, as there isn't much to be had anyway.

So why if the American population are so passionate about cars, are there not similar numbers of small manufacturers?

I found a website with a far from exhaustive list of makers. Aside from the "big" US companies (eg Ford) there were only about 10 - 15, compared with about 40 UK companies.

It is a Russian (http://www.diakom.ru:8000/link/in/) site, so I doubt it is especially biased in the UK's favour.

The only established independant US manufacturers I can think of are Saleen, Mosler and Panoz, all of which seem focussed at building stripped out road racers than something more akin to a Porsche or Lamborghini. (i.e. more creature comforts. Leather seats, Sat nav etc)

If I am missing a huge number of sports car companies from the US - PLEASE tell me - I want to know about them.

Please only companies that build their own cars - not tuners like Lingenfelter.

charged

12-23-2004, 06:24 PM

1. Can you buy a Corvette at a dealership?

Probably not. Can you buy a Porsche at a dealership? probably so.
that would explain why you see more Porsches...True,still doesnt explain why their in the carpark and none on the tracks?On all amercian car runs there are over 200?.They get private imported in fairly reasonable numbers here though

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 06:56 PM

True,still doesnt explain why their in the carpark and none on the tracks?On all amercian car runs there are over 200?.They get private imported in fairly reasonable numbers here though
Probably the same reason the 'Vette sees the track here and the Porsche rarely gets out of the Garage..

In AU I'm guessing they import more Porsche's than Corvettes, and so a Corvette owner bought the car as a fashion statement and probably spent more on it than he could get a similar Porsche for.

In the US you can buy either at a dealership.. the Porsche just so happens to be the fastest fashion statement the yuppie populace can lay hands on, as they would never be seen driving a :eek: CHEVROLET :eek: .

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:02 PM

In Australia we have various multi make race classes,nations cup,gt performance have all different makes of car Ferraris,subaru,nissan,lambo's,etc no corvettes.I see 6 to 12 national meetings a year never see a Vette in marque sports,sports car etc race classes,but heaps of Porsches.Even local practice days or come and try days no vettes.They can be exported here,but the people importing them certainly dont use them as a sports car,more a fashion statment.Sad really
Thats what I thought, it would take a pretty penny to import a car, I rather just buy one...
That makes perfect sence that you see more Porsches.

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:04 PM

You bloody Americans just don't get it.

That is perfectly adequate for a car thats main intention is HANDLING! Through the bends, round the hairpin! Yaaargh!!

And don't you think thats pretty fast for a car powered by (Shock Horror) A JAPANESE MANUFACTURER?
You dont seem to get it. Im saying that its powerband is crap.

clutch-monkey

12-23-2004, 07:07 PM

So in all the Corvette is in no way a kit car, or holds any attributes to one.

yes, kit cars have better build quality :D j/k :D

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 07:17 PM

Acutally I did read that, and again he not saying that cylinders matter. He was simply stating that the 4 banger celica engine in the Elise is one thing holding it back from being a supercar.
Go back and read the English and consider the word "inference" in your analysis. Also consider WHY ELSE woudl it be commented ?

No problem
Obviously there is a HUGE problem coz you failed to ansewr the question adn we all know why :)
Go back read the quesiton again and post the answers this time.

That took about 5 minutes to find...
and a shame you didn't spend the 5 seconds to get the RIGHT answer :)
Luckily you get second chances here. Go back and try again.

BTW even with the Elise's super tiny gearing (4.53:1 final drive) it holds a pathetic 5mph rolling to 60mph run of 5.8 seconds (and thats with the optional sports package)
You got a link for that, I'd be interested to see the chart and see where the gear changes were going on. Sounds as if they either let it bog down in first or got caught with a change late on. Not sure with the US spec. Mind you I'd only expect to see fractions of a second faster.
But wait, the Elise is 3/4 the cost of the Corvette and better than 3/4 the performance so wins on the best value concept we keep hearing, doesn't it ??

Never took it as a lie, just never heard about it.
Slicks, you reallyt got to spot the smiley and learn what sarcasm IS !!

Its only "nonsence" to you because you dont like the fact that an american car is beating european cars for a fraction of the cost... Just give it up, they are great cars and nothing says otherwise (unless you can fulfill my very old request of proving it wrong)
Slicks you ignore that I've already given you LISTS of cars that beat the Corvette on acceleration and track for a fraction of ITS price. You WANT to ignore those, fine. BUT don't go suggesting other people dont like facts !!
This will go nowhere again because you don't know most of the fast performing cars in Europe and the rest of the world and actually thge ONLY experience you really have is gleaned from books and the internet.
I dont have a problem and never have putting my hand up and saying theses cars are fast off the line and that they can produce NUMBERS. What I've alsways said is that they fail on some roads. Now by any NORMAL measure best at one isn't usually as good as best at everything BUT one. For you it obviously works backwards, but not the rest of us.

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 07:19 PM

They do this because kit cars do not have to pass saftey tests here, as the Noble as is does not pass US saftey regulations.

So in all the Corvette is in no way a kit car, or holds any attributes to one.
Floppy panels, tinny interiors :)

Please post the US safety regs the Noble doesn't pass and explain WHY it makes a difference ?

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 07:23 PM

Stop coming up with weak arguments and avioding the questions..
Again, I'll give it a shot, from my perspective.

Most of the sports car firms in the UK deal in front engined, rear wheel drive cars, some mid engined.

The front engine RWD cars are the most simple to engineer.

There are probably close to a hundred car companies in the UK building their own cars (not tuning), or providing the parts for them semi-built (kit cars).

Its not like that here, the kit industry is more focused on Fiero mod kits than full on cars. I'm sure alot of that has to do with the trouble with registration and insurance of said kit cars... with FM you just call it a fiero and be done with it. The full on cars are the Cobra replicas ( and soon ) '69 Camaro replicars. To be honest the kit industry here seems focused on 'Replicars' with some British kits here and there.

How many of them actually make a decent profit? VERY few.

Anouther reason few American companies take on the task of designing a new car from the ground up...

So why are they doing it, if not passion and love of cars.

Because they all want to succedde and hope other people can see in their car the same thing they see..

Obviously it isn't for profit, as there isn't much to be had anyway.

But then GM makes such a HUGE profit on the Corvette?

So why if the American population are so passionate about cars, are there not similar numbers of small manufacturers?

Profit, and backing. Most kit car companies here go under in nothing flat and no one wants to waste money to fund a limited editions sports car kit which has no guarantee of sucess.

The only established independant US manufacturers I can think of are Saleen, Mosler and Panoz, all of which seem focussed at building stripped out road racers than something more akin to a Porsche or Lamborghini. (i.e. more creature comforts. Leather seats, Sat nav etc)
Because that is what their vison of a sports supercar, A stripped out road racer.

If I am missing a huge number of sports car companies from the US - PLEASE tell me - I want to know about them.

Good luck. We're suffering a sports car deficiet, which we probably won't ever correct.

Please only companies that build their own cars - not tuners like Lingenfelter.
Google is great for searches :rolleyes:

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:25 PM

Stop coming up with weak arguments and avioding the questions.

Most of the sports car firms in the UK deal in front engined, rear wheel drive cars, some mid engined.

There are probably close to a hundred car companies in the UK building their own cars (not tuning), or providing the parts for them semi-built (kit cars).

Do you have any idea how much larger the US is compared to the UK? There could be many unheard of kitcar makers etc. across the whole country. Maybe some of them are for local buisness only, so they dont have a website. You never could know.

How many of them actually make a decent profit? VERY few.

Some how I doubt that, its not cheap keeping your own business running... And from what I always hear the demand for sporty cars is much greater there than here.

So why are they doing it, if not passion and love of cars.

Obviously it isn't for profit, as there isn't much to be had anyway.

If it were truly 100% for passion wouldnt they give them away? Or just keep them for themselves? They sell them for MONEY. No doubt they have passion for what they do, im not denying that, but your blowing things out of proportion.

So why if the American population are so passionate about cars, are there not similar numbers of small manufacturers?

Ah, now I didnt say that the American population was passionate, thats impossable to say. I did say though, that those who do make sports cars are passionate about it. (i.e. the vette and viper)

I found a website with a far from exhaustive list of makers. Aside from the "big" US companies (eg Ford) there were only about 10 - 15, compared with about 40 UK companies.

It is a Russian (http://www.diakom.ru:8000/link/in/) site, so I doubt it is especially biased in the UK's favour.

The only established independant US manufacturers I can think of are Saleen, Mosler and Panoz, all of which seem focussed at building stripped out road racers than something more akin to a Porsche or Lamborghini. (i.e. more creature comforts. Leather seats, Sat nav etc)

If I am missing a huge number of sports car companies from the US - PLEASE tell me - I want to know about them.

Please only companies that build their own cars - not tuners like Lingenfelter.
There are probably endless sites out there to kit car companies etc. Im not going to bother looking forever, so this is what I got in about 5 minutes.
http://www.kitcar.com/kitcarmfrs.html

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:30 PM

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 07:32 PM

And you pay, what, nearly 3 times the cost of a basemodel corvette for some wood bits, a nice cut of leather, and a BMW engine. How is that attractive?
hi. hjh, we';ve covered this before in other threads with Slicks but you're new.

The BIG problem in comparing car prices is they're different for each country.
So Coventry converted the UK price of an Aero8 to make it easier for you but what he FAILED to add was the price of a Corvette over here. It's 50,000 pounds - that's $75000 !!

See we pay more for our cars. it's the reason why you guys get old style Ford and Chevrolet cars while Europe has the new gen stuff. We're willing to pay for quality. Most Americans wont. We each get what we pay for.

So when comparing, it's already been suggested that what has to be done is the cheapest price in the world THEN converted to a common (stable) currency like the Euro :)

Matra et Alpine

12-23-2004, 07:38 PM

Floppy panels, tinny interiors :)

Please post the US safety regs the Noble doesn't pass and explain WHY it makes a difference ?
Here is the site that sells the Nobles, youll find what you want in there.
http://www.1gracing.com/

EDIT: oh yeah heres an article if you want it
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=8140&page_number=1
Isnt it nice to be asking someone that will get off their but to find what they cite :rolleyes:
gee, Slicks, good use of google to find articles that says it doesn't pass US safety.

But that's not what I asked.

See, you jumped, please go BACK AGAIN and try it tthe right way this time.

Let ME put the effort in and explain. It might be airbags - who cares - it night be bumper height - maybe an issue.

What I ASKED was for you to explain WHY it fails.

You keep showing yourself up in public. I'm doing my best to keep giving you chances to do what you claim you're the only one doing and getting facts.
So far they've all been the wrong ones.

Start again and I'll read your NEXT attempt tomorrow.

Man this is sooo repetitive, but I'm taking a different approach. Each time you fail I'll just ask you to get it right until you actually manage to complete the question.

oh and gentle eeminder, you've also failed to asnwer the original usable torque question too. Just making sure you get round to it.

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:52 PM

Go back and read the English and consider the word "inference" in your analysis. Also consider WHY ELSE woudl it be commented ?

Still seeing nothing... Why dont you try and explain things, not everyone sees the way you do...

Obviously there is a HUGE problem coz you failed to ansewr the question adn we all know why :)
Go back read the quesiton again and post the answers this time.

and a shame you didn't spend the 5 seconds to get the RIGHT answer :)
Luckily you get second chances here. Go back and try again.

No, because you have the charts now, and you can do it yourself. Ha, and you call me lazy...

You got a link for that, I'd be interested to see the chart and see where the gear changes were going on. Sounds as if they either let it bog down in first or got caught with a change late on. Not sure with the US spec. Mind you I'd only expect to see fractions of a second faster.
But wait, the Elise is 3/4 the cost of the Corvette and better than 3/4 the performance so wins on the best value concept we keep hearing, doesn't it ??

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8202&page_number=1
Gear changes were at redline, like all acceleration tests, stop making excuses.
But unfortunetly they left out alot of numbers from the article in the magazine. If your really that interested search google for a scan of page 49 of that issue.
BTW the Elise (base) is 39K, the Corvette base is (44K) how is that 3/4? The model elise used in that comparo was the sport package ($43,260) while the Z06 is roughly $51K. Still not 3/4...
And the Elise beats the vette ONLY in handling, nothing else... (except city EPA). And thats only in performance, dont even try on ride quality, space, interior, and practicallity. So it seems the vette is still the value here...

Slicks, you reallyt got to spot the smiley and learn what sarcasm IS !!

Sarcasm is persented in tone of voice! There is no tone over the internet! Nect time use the sarcasm tags :p

Slicks you ignore that I've already given you LISTS of cars that beat the Corvette on acceleration and track for a fraction of ITS price.

In USD? Please name them, and the article or whatever they beat the vette in. Notice you said acceleration AND track, so the Elise may handle better, but the vette beats it in acceleration and track time.
Also if you were refering to european currency, I would still like proof.

This will go nowhere again because you don't know most of the fast performing cars in Europe and the rest of the world and actually thge ONLY experience you really have is gleaned from books and the internet.
Funny after talking about the corvette so much, remind me what experience do you have with it? :p

I dont have a problem and never have putting my hand up and saying theses cars are fast off the line and that they can produce NUMBERS. What I've alsways said is that they fail on some roads. Now by any NORMAL measure best at one isn't usually as good as best at everything BUT one. For you it obviously works backwards, but not the rest of us.
Nor do I, but I do have a problem with people saying things like "the Viper or Corvette dont handle good" instead of saying "they wouldnt take kindly to britsh roads." Thats two COMPETELY different things. Wether its wide long high speed turns or sharp narrow low speed turns its still handling!

Slicks

12-23-2004, 07:54 PM

gee, Slicks, good use of google to find articles that says it doesn't pass US safety.
Not google, its called Car and Driver...

But that's not what I asked.

See, you jumped, please go BACK AGAIN and try it tthe right way this time.

Let ME put the effort in and explain. It might be airbags - who cares - it night be bumper height - maybe an issue.

What I ASKED was for you to explain WHY it fails.

You keep showing yourself up in public. I'm doing my best to keep giving you chances to do what you claim you're the only one doing and getting facts.
So far they've all been the wrong ones.

Start again and I'll read your NEXT attempt tomorrow.

Man this is sooo repetitive, but I'm taking a different approach. Each time you fail I'll just ask you to get it right until you actually manage to complete the question.

oh and gentle eeminder, you've also failed to asnwer the original usable torque question too. Just making sure you get round to it.
Why dont you stop being so lazy and READ. Read through the 1GRacing site i got for you and find out yourself! Im not going to do the work for you.

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 08:06 PM

Go back and read the English and consider the word "inference" in your analysis. Also consider WHY ELSE woudl it be commented ?
Power to wieght? Thats a ricer excuse Matra. The Toyota engine was the first one they could lay hands on at the price they where willing to pay in order to get their car out.

Obviously there is a HUGE problem coz you failed to ansewr the question adn we all know why :)
Go back read the quesiton again and post the answers this time.
and a shame you didn't spend the 5 seconds to get the RIGHT answer :)
Luckily you get second chances here. Go back and try again.

Obviously in both cases you wanted YOUR answer, not the RIGHT answer.

You got a link for that, I'd be interested to see the chart and see where the gear changes were going on. Sounds as if they either let it bog down in first or got caught with a change late on. Not sure with the US spec. Mind you I'd only expect to see fractions of a second faster.
The power output is possibly less in the US spec..

But wait, the Elise is 3/4 the cost of the Corvette and better than 3/4 the performance so wins on the best value concept we keep hearing, doesn't it ??

Where exactly is this? The Corvette costs a wonderful $43,710 LINK (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/default.aspx?state=new&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&pos=Find&src=LeftNav) and the Elise costs 40,930 LINK (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/overview.aspx?modelid=11168&src=LeftNav) . So either your math is less than optimal, or, you don't care much for the facts... :rolleyes:

Slicks you ignore that I've already given you LISTS of cars that beat the Corvette on acceleration and track for a fraction of ITS price. You WANT to ignore those, fine.
..and most of these are kit cars that you have to put together yourself or pay more for someone else to preassemble. yeah! that's some deal, especially considering the service and support you'll get when the company goes belly up. Or the fact you get no warranty and are stuck insuring the car as a kit, at least here in the states.

BUT don't go suggesting other people dont like facts !!

No need to suggest.

[/QUOTE]
This will go nowhere again because you don't know most of the fast performing cars in Europe and the rest of the world and actually thge ONLY experience you really have is gleaned from books and the internet.
[/QUOTE]
I've had some taste of Europes performance and I find it wanting, especially for the cost of entry.

My first car was a 1974 Triumph TR7. I liked it, it was an alright car, but it wasn't anywhere near the epitome of performance it could have been. I had a 6 cylinder car by the way. I sold it to my cousin who wrapped it around around a tree after taking it off a 4 foot embankment.

If I had it to do again, the car would end up with a 3800 v6 out of a camaro or Firebird more likely than not.

I like the looks of the Spitfires, could make a nice weekender.. :D

you've stated alot about Porsches.. but if I was going to own one, I would probably buy a 944 and swap an LS1 in and totally redo the suspension/interior to match my taste, updating along the way.

Other than that, I'm not interested.

I dont have a problem and never have putting my hand up and saying theses cars are fast off the line and that they can produce NUMBERS.
Does it bother you that they produce better numbers than the European cars?

CdocZ

12-23-2004, 08:30 PM

ever consider the difference in where the weight is/more weight/less weight can seriously affect a car's handling? (hjholter, thats for you)

Hjholter3

12-23-2004, 08:32 PM

ever consider the difference in where the weight is/more weight/less weight can seriously affect a car's handling? (hjholter, thats for you)

It's called 'SUSPENSION TUNING' and it can seriously affect a cars handling.. :rolleyes:

CdocZ

12-23-2004, 08:34 PM

you basically just dodged the question. tuning the suspension can change the handling, but unless your suspension can cancel out weight completley......no matter what you do, weight placement will always have an affect

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 08:40 PM

Another reason few American companies take on the task of designing a new car from the ground up...

Surely if they were truly passionate about building a car they'd do it anyway?
It probably costs more to set up your own company here because of taxes, and a large number of companies fail - yet they still try.

Are Americans really that apethetic?

But then GM makes such a HUGE profit on the Corvette?

Yes. It is easy to make a profit when you are a global firm, selling to several countries with a well established brand, and the ability to spread the cost of development throught the company (to finance the R&D they could just stick $5 on every other car they make) and then charge huge ammounts of money for it.

If you are making cars in a dingy shed in England, and hardly anyone knows that your company exist, and those that do probably already own a car similar to that which you are building, and you are lucky to sell 5 cars before going bust, then there isn't really that much profit to be had.

In fact most of these companies, even ones with a fair bit of recognition (Jensen) can go bust.

You don't go bust if you are making profit.

Profit, and backing. Most kit car companies here go under in nothing flat and no one wants to waste money to fund a limited editions sports car kit which has no guarantee of sucess.

Yes. The same applies in this country, but people still give it a go.

Good luck. We're suffering a sports car deficiet, which we probably won't ever correct.

Well if all the people "passionate" about cars are put of by the threat of failure, you are right. I see no way of curing the problem.

Google is great for searches :rolleyes:

Wow! Really? Don't spare any effort contributing to the debate will you.

Strangely enough I thought that seeing as there are people on here claiming to be American car fans, they might know of some to aid me in my search.

I have found 6 American companies so far, compared with 26 British ones from the same websites.

Coventrysucks

12-23-2004, 08:50 PM

Do you have any idea how much larger the US is compared to the UK?

The USA is LARGER than the UK???!!!???! :eek: ;)

There could be many unheard of kitcar makers etc. across the whole country. Maybe some of them are for local buisness only, so they dont have a website. You never could know.

Same with companies here. Trying to find out which ones are still in business from the ones which don't update their websites for a few years is a bind.

Some how I doubt that, its not cheap keeping your own business running... And from what I always hear the demand for sporty cars is much greater there than here.

Demand may be higher, but there is more supply than demand.

Anyway, I thought that Americans were "passionate" about sports cars, so why isn't there great demand?

If it were truly 100% for passion wouldnt they give them away? [QUOTE=Slicks]

So when you spent a good few hundred thousand pounds of your own, and investors, money, and sell 5 cars for £20,000 before going bankrupt.

That isn't giving them away?

[QUOTE=Slicks]Ah, now I didnt say that the American population was passionate, thats impossable to say. I did say though, that those who do make sports cars are passionate about it. (i.e. the vette and viper)

"We have passion when building sportscars"

"We" tends to indicate the populace of the USA in this context.

You do have passion when building sportscars, its just that nobody does.

There are probably endless sites out there to kit car companies etc. Im not going to bother looking forever, so this is what I got in about 5 minutes.
http://www.kitcar.com/kitcarmfrs.html

Its better than nothing. Thank you very much.

CdocZ

12-23-2004, 08:54 PM

i think its mostly because if any new company in america tries building sports cars, they got shot down instantly almost. a few really good ones sometimes make it......but......not usually. so......we stuck with what we have.....maybe ill move to england, already have a relative there.

megotmea7

12-23-2004, 09:43 PM

Obviously there is a HUGE problem coz you failed to ansewr the question adn we all know why
Go back read the quesiton again and post the answers this time.
funny, you did the same thing with my earlier post...

Slicks

12-23-2004, 10:43 PM

"We have passion when building sportscars"

"We" tends to indicate the populace of the USA in this context.

You do have passion when building sportscars, its just that nobody does.

No you took it wrong again. Re-read
"We have passion when building sports cars."
So in other words the ones(American ones being "We") building the sports cars have passion.

Its better than nothing. Thank you very much.
If I have more time ill look around more.

Turbonutter55

12-24-2004, 04:20 AM

Power to wieght? Thats a ricer excuse Matra. The Toyota engine was the first one they could lay hands on at the price they where willing to pay in order to get their car out.
You are calling a Lotus Elise a ricer. That should be a crime. And yes, power-to-weight is the most important thing. Otherwise your 400-horse Corvette would be beaten in a quarter-mile by a 460-horse Peterbilt! The Elise and Exige are not ricers. They will beat a Viper SRT-10 which costs twice as much and has well over twice the power, and will do it while burning a third as much fuel. The reason why European sports cars are not all 6-liter monsters (like you think a sports car has to be to qualify) is that European roads are twisty, and gas costs $6 a gallon. This means that European designers have to THINK about how to make their car perform, rather than just adding 100 extra cubic inches. British roads require handling, and a muscle-car against a native product on a Welsh B-road will be eaten for breakfast. Each car is designed for use in its own country, but British cars can compete overseas.

Matra et Alpine

12-24-2004, 04:33 AM

Still seeing nothing... Why dont you try and explain things, not everyone sees the way you do...
You don't for sure.
I can't help you read every sentence so I won't start.
But you're WAY WRONG and it's clear to see.

No, because you have the charts now, and you can do it yourself. Ha, and you call me lazy...
Duplicitous, Slicks !!
You see, YOU demand everyoen gives you all the facts adn won't go look.
The fact is i DID go to those sites and links and i DID point out to you that all they said was they don'ty comply and that nowhere did it explain WHY. I even went to the effort to explain that to you and still you don't bother.
Youre a lazy person Slicks, lazy in mind and act and scared to delve because it forces the real truth out.
I don't know WHY they're failed, but it may have NOTHEING to do with core safety adn THAT was what I was trying to find out. Seated in a kevlar/compsit full seat with 4 or 5 point harness adn things like air-bagfs for exmpale are pointeless !!
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. THE SITES YOU "FOUND" DON'T SAY. YOU THING THEY DO. YOU ARE WASTING EVERYONES TIME LYING.

Gear changes were at redline, like all acceleration tests, stop making excuses.
erm, for someone who cites power and torque chapter and verse then that isn't always the best palce to change gears. That was why I wondered about the gear curves.
But I'm sure you KNEW that changing at redling isn't always the right thing to do, huh ? Guess not ?? OR you woulnd't have typed what you di. ASSUMPTION there Slicks. I'd like the facts please.

But unfortunetly they left out alot of numbers from the article in the magazine. If your really that interested search google for a scan of page 49 of that issue.
Well Slcisk as you ALWYAS ask others I ask of you. Present the evidence or shut up ( your words I believe in the past ?:) )
Well do you walkd the walk you talk ???

BTW the Elise (base) is 39K, the Corvette base is (44K) how is that 3/4? The model elise used in that comparo was the sport package ($43,260) while the Z06 is roughly $51K. Still not 3/4...
erm, HOW MANY TIMES do we need to explain prices to you ?
Check out UK prices and do as once suggested and take the cheapest prices in the eworld market and stop being so parochial.
Yep, Lotus are more expensive for you because they're not trying to sell a "dream" to a guy working 2 shifts in McDonalds who wants a 'vette !!

And the Elise beats the vette ONLY in handling, nothing else... (except city EPA). And thats only in performance, dont even try on ride quality, space, interior, and practicallity. So it seems the vette is still the value here...
You added the word "here" - well done.
You don't need or want the superior handling, the sequential 'box, the nimblesness in cornering.
You don't get the chance to have it cheaper.
But everyoen else in the world does.
And I bet lots of folks in the US will too. Lets see how the sales figures do :)
I've driven some roads in Half Moon Bay and around Sausalito and up in Coos Bay Oregon and Everett which are meant for an Elise and were slow driving in a big car !!
Horses for courses. How many 'vettes compete in Autocross in the US ? It'll be a real winner there. It's a "sport" and will be good to compare "sportscars".
I loveed the "only" and then adding EPA - straight out of Montyy Python, I'm sure if we continued there woudl be more :)

Sarcasm is persented in tone of voice! There is no tone over the internet! Nect time use the sarcasm tags :p
Show me the definition that says sarcasm is in tone of voice ?
You won't.
You'd LIKE it to be, but that's not how the world works.
This is old groudn Slicks.
You have a Merry Christmas, hopefully Santa will bring you somethign useful ............

In USD? Please name them, and the article or whatever they beat the vette in. Notice you said acceleration AND track, so the Elise may handle better, but the vette beats it in acceleration and track time.
Also if you were refering to european currency, I would still like proof.

[QUOTE]Funny after talking about the corvette so much, remind me what experience do you have with it? :p
ya2wn, old ground Slicks. Yep I've NOT sat in a Z06. yes I have been in old vettes and Viper. I've discussed cars with members of our trackday clubs who own and race them. See those are FACTS SLicks, to you you don't want to hear or read.
But lets not take away from the point, Slicks.
You actually don't have ANY experience worth noting and certainly none to enable you to be able to understand the concepts discussed or published in magazines.
You demonstrate it daily !

Nor do I, but I do have a problem with people saying things like "the Viper or Corvette dont handle good" instead of saying "they wouldnt take kindly to britsh roads." Thats two COMPETELY different things. Wether its wide long high speed turns or sharp narrow low speed turns its still handling!

One needs to re-attend English class SLicks.
You just said it.
But it's Shristmass so I'll try to re-express your logic.
A car that cannot handle British roads ( which are the same as the rest of Europe ) has "good handling" ?
Is THAT what you're saying ?
If yes, then a car that CAN handle British roads AND can handle American roads, MSU ipso-facto be the BETTER HANDLING CAR.
Your logic IS irrefutable, the Eureopan sportscars ARE BETTER HANDLING than the 'vette or Viper.
Yoour logic SLicks !!
You might want to consider it :)
Enjoy the holiday season.

Matra et Alpine

12-24-2004, 04:36 AM

Not google, its called Car and Driver...

Why dont you stop being so lazy and READ. Read through the 1GRacing site i got for you and find out yourself! Im not going to do the work for you.
You shoudl have done it SLicks.
The site didn't give the reasons WHY.
I actually went and did something you have NEVER done in discussions.
I went and read.
But I'll do it "the right way".
So that doesn't give the asnwer.
You were asked to provide the WHYs.
You havent,
Either you're lying, making it up or don't know.
PLEASE present the facts and ONLY provide a link if it directly gives the information asked.
You are the man for facts, Slick, I'm only asking what you demand of everyoen else.
Please, I;'d liek to know what safety features the Noble fails US safety regs on.

Matra et Alpine

12-24-2004, 04:38 AM

No, because you have the charts now, and you can do it yourself. Ha, and you call me lazy...
You were asked to provide the usable torque range of the cars.
You've not done that SLicks.
WHy should I do all your work as you demand others to do yours.
Come on SLicks you really can't have your cake AND eat it.
Play fair and step up to the mark you demand of everyoen else.
Except we KNOW the power band on the revvy engines is wider, don't we :)

So a reminder, the question was please give the rev range of the torque and power curves to within 20% of their peak.
We're all still waiting for you to answer that question.
It's not hard.

Matra et Alpine

12-24-2004, 05:00 AM

Power to wieght? Thats a ricer excuse Matra. The Toyota engine was the first one they could lay hands on at the price they where willing to pay in order to get their car out.
Sorry, hjh, it may well be that ricers claim power to weight but so do racers.
Just because one group abuse a metric doens't reduce it's usefullness.
BTW the Toyota WASN"T the first engine they could lay there hands on !!
If you've read otherwise, please give us the link, I'd be interested to read why they came to that comclusion.
The Toyota engine is a proven race block used in single seaters. It's an excellent engine that provide good emissions and power with a smooth and relatively unpeaky band.

Obviously in both cases you wanted YOUR answer, not the RIGHT answer.
Interesting, if you actually go back and read it all I think it helps make it clear. The comment trying to tpu down I4s is sooo tired maybe you missed it.

Where exactly is this? The Corvette costs a wonderful $43,710 LINK (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/default.aspx?state=new&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&pos=Find&src=LeftNav) and the Elise costs 40,930 LINK (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/overview.aspx?modelid=11168&src=LeftNav) . So either your math is less than optimal, or, you don't care much for the facts... :rolleyes:
Or you think the internet is America only.
Prices vary greatly and Lotus are coining it in from Us customers - or their distributorse are taking a hige hike, one of the 2 :(

..and most of these are kit cars that you have to put together yourself or pay more for someone else to preassemble. yeah! that's some deal, especially considering the service and support you'll get when the company goes belly up. Or the fact you get no warranty and are stuck insuring the car as a kit, at least here in the states.
Thanks for the last bit.
Yep, you guys get the shitty end of the performance cars for less $$$.
Sorry, write to your congressman and get them to accept cars that pass Eureopan legal requirements and you coudl have LODS of fun for VERY little mioney. How about a twin engined 4WD Mini for $20,000 ? They're cleaning up on grass track racing over here !!!

No need to suggest.
and not smart to 'suggest' you weren't "suggesting" other need to learn facts when it's facts being given. Problem with some folks ( you KNOW who you are) is they don't look beyond city boundaries for facts. There's a LOT more goign on in the car world than in the US. Hell when you see some of the neat cars made ONLY in Japan !! ( Admittedly also some of the funkiest/weirdest !! )

I've had some taste of Europes performance and I find it wanting, especially for the cost of entry.

My first car was a 1974 Triumph TR7. I liked it, it was an alright car, but it wasn't anywhere near the epitome of performance it could have been. I had a 6 cylinder car by the way. I sold it to my cousin who wrapped it around around a tree after taking it off a 4 foot embankment.

erm, you do know the TR7 bombed over here.
NOBODY bought them, you can't find them on the rodsa, nobody wants to bother maintaining them.
Even the V8 engined versions are like hens teeth.
The suspension came straight out of the Triumpg heritage which was based on 1960s designs. It succked. Thing was we knew it overe here and didn't buy them !!

That woudl be like me citing the Edsel and basing my US xperiences on it.

If I had it to do again, the car would end up with a 3800 v6 out of a camaro or Firebird more likely than not.
Don't be tempted the chasis and suspension are unable to cope - they didn't cope with the 4-potter they had in it too !!!!

I like the looks of the Spitfires, could make a nice weekender.. :D
Like the styling choices, but that's an Austin A35 from 1958 suspension !!
Trust me I really a 1974 MGB GT, I can quote chapter and verse on all the reasons NOT to take a Leyland "sports" car :)

you've stated alot about Porsches.. but if I was going to own one, I would probably buy a 944 and swap an LS1 in and totally redo the suspension/interior to match my taste, updating along the way.
nice lines and with the LS1 if you cna easily mate the rear trasnaxle coudl retain some nice balance.
The one posted with the big blower may ahve had handling "issues" tho :)

Other than that, I'm not interested.
What about and original TVR Griffin, if you like those above ?
Also, if you like the classic British handling, then you NEED to try a UK spec Miata and the Honda S2000. Not sure how much "damaged" it is for the US market and whether you can retrofit the handling packages. but they are both exceptionally well balanced and keep the speed up THROUGH the curves and oversteer controlability ( == lots of fun :) )

Does it bother you that they produce better numbers than the European cars?
Not at all.
It's when theose numbers are then taken as in some way being gospel.
My worst ones are the skidpan and the slalom. They tell you NOTHINn on the real cars capability on real corners a, track and roads. Tey can be grossly different and yet th4e highest scorere will lurch violently and be uncotnrllable in a complex of corners, dips and rises.
It's the "fanboys" who judge a car based on a .05g on skidpan or .1s on 0-60 that are annoying. Usually kids who've never driven anything faster than their mom's Neon or Dad's Explorer.
Also when THEN they're used as some global comparison. Different tracks different setups all make different numbers. Epitomised by the Corvette. It can't handle the nice roads that are fun to drive over here and enytime it's mentioned it's like you're blaspheming a god :) Yep a car may be faster on 1/4 mile, but in reality how many times do we drive twisty roads versus how many times do we drag race on the streets ? Equally, as already stated in anohther thread, I'd not touch an Elise in the US if I had that 2 hour commute on I101 every day !!!!

Egg Nog

12-24-2004, 08:48 PM

you've stated alot about Porsches.. but if I was going to own one, I would probably buy a 944 and swap an LS1 in and totally redo the suspension/interior to match my taste, updating along the way.

That's exactly what I plan on doing with mine in the future, except that I'd use the LT1 from the C4 Corvette. Unfortunately the 944 has a crossmember which the LS1 can't clear, but the LT1 can. The LT1's compact FI system also allows for the stock hood to be kept. I've looked into it :)

CdocZ

12-24-2004, 08:51 PM

very interesting.......the lt1 was a good engine too

Slicks

12-24-2004, 09:14 PM

You don't for sure.
I can't help you read every sentence so I won't start.
But you're WAY WRONG and it's clear to see.

He was specifying the engine, it is undoubtably a Toyota 4 cylinder from the Celica GTS, obveously he doesnt know the engine code, otherwise he would have probably used that.

Duplicitous, Slicks !!
You see, YOU demand everyoen gives you all the facts adn won't go look.
The fact is i DID go to those sites and links and i DID point out to you that all they said was they don'ty comply and that nowhere did it explain WHY. I even went to the effort to explain that to you and still you don't bother.
Youre a lazy person Slicks, lazy in mind and act and scared to delve because it forces the real truth out.I don't know WHY they're failed, but it may have NOTHEING to do with core safety adn THAT was what I was trying to find out. Seated in a kevlar/compsit full seat with 4 or 5 point harness adn things like air-bagfs for exmpale are pointeless !!
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW. THE SITES YOU "FOUND" DON'T SAY. YOU THING THEY DO. YOU ARE WASTING EVERYONES TIME LYING.
First, Im not lieing, I simply said that the Noble didnt pass regualtions, I never said that I knew why.
Next I dont ask you to go on wild goose chases, you can easily find this information yourself. The requests I ask are for information that you cite from your "experience."
The fact remains that the Noble cannot be sold here due to some saftey laws, those law I do not know, nor care, because it doesnt change the fact that it cant be sold. I do not know saftey regulations off the top of my head, and it would be rather time consuming to find the laws, then try and apply them to the Noble.
Do you think this is another one of those "conspiracies" or is it just curiosity?

erm, for someone who cites power and torque chapter and verse then that isn't always the best palce to change gears. That was why I wondered about the gear curves.
But I'm sure you KNEW that changing at redling isn't always the right thing to do, huh ? Guess not ?? OR you woulnd't have typed what you di. ASSUMPTION there Slicks. I'd like the facts please.

Peak power occurs at, or right near redline correct? For the Elise it does, as you can see. Yes, I did assume that the gear change was at redline, because it does not say when they changed.

Well Slcisk as you ALWYAS ask others I ask of you. Present the evidence or shut up ( your words I believe in the past ?:) )
Well do you walkd the walk you talk ???

Just for you I got my dad's digital camera, you can look for yourself at the chart at the bottom of this post. Don't expect any more personal favors...

erm, HOW MANY TIMES do we need to explain prices to you ?
Check out UK prices and do as once suggested and take the cheapest prices in the eworld market and stop being so parochial.
Yep, Lotus are more expensive for you because they're not trying to sell a "dream" to a guy working 2 shifts in McDonalds who wants a 'vette !!

Weve gone over this before, you did NOT state that the Elise was a bargain in the UK, you just said it was a bragain compared to the Corvette. And as you know, since Ive told you before, in the US the vette is a bargain. So its safe to assume that you meant in the US...

You added the word "here" - well done.
You don't need or want the superior handling, the sequential 'box, the nimblesness in cornering.
You don't get the chance to have it cheaper.
But everyoen else in the world does.
And I bet lots of folks in the US will too. Lets see how the sales figures do :)

So far I hear sales are doing good, we will see.

I've driven some roads in Half Moon Bay and around Sausalito and up in Coos Bay Oregon and Everett which are meant for an Elise and were slow driving in a big car !!
Horses for courses. How many 'vettes compete in Autocross in the US ? It'll be a real winner there. It's a "sport" and will be good to compare "sportscars".
I loveed the "only" and then adding EPA - straight out of Montyy Python, I'm sure if we continued there woudl be more :)
I know may vette owners that compete in autocrosses, even automatic owners.
I added the EPA thing in there because that doesnt really have to do with performance... monty python.... *shivers* dont say that....

Show me the definition that says sarcasm is in tone of voice ?
You won't.
You'd LIKE it to be, but that's not how the world works.
This is old groudn Slicks.
You have a Merry Christmas, hopefully Santa will bring you somethign useful ............
Ha, you finally have something on me there, good job. But yes, sarcasm is hard to tell over the internet, wether you like it or not.

Seems you avoided one of my questions though(again)... Go back and find it...

One needs to re-attend English class SLicks.
You just said it.
But it's Shristmass so I'll try to re-express your logic.
A car that cannot handle British roads ( which are the same as the rest of Europe ) has "good handling" ?
Is THAT what you're saying ?
If yes, then a car that CAN handle British roads AND can handle American roads, MSU ipso-facto be the BETTER HANDLING CAR.
Your logic IS irrefutable, the Eureopan sportscars ARE BETTER HANDLING than the 'vette or Viper.
Yoour logic SLicks !!
You might want to consider it :)
Enjoy the holiday season.
Ah, I never said that they "cant handle" british roads, more of "they wouldnt do that well." One of the main contributers to that is their width, they are wide cars, and as you claim, these roads are narrow, giving them a disadvantage. But truly if these cars couldnt handle so well then why do they post such good lap times? That doesnt make sence...
And did I say that european sports cars could "handle" our tracks here?(of course they can on our roads, they're all strait!)
Howabout this, like Ive asked before, why dont you find some hard evidence that the vette and viper dont "handle good." Go look for some "b road" tests and see what they can do, I just assumed they wouldnt do so well, I could be wrong, hell, youve been wrong alot before.

CdocZ

12-24-2004, 09:21 PM

Slicks

12-24-2004, 09:23 PM

You were asked to provide the usable torque range of the cars.
You've not done that SLicks.
WHy should I do all your work as you demand others to do yours.
Come on SLicks you really can't have your cake AND eat it.
Play fair and step up to the mark you demand of everyoen else.
Except we KNOW the power band on the revvy engines is wider, don't we :)

So a reminder, the question was please give the rev range of the torque and power curves to within 20% of their peak.
We're all still waiting for you to answer that question.
It's not hard.
Here, if this is what it takes to shut you up then so be it. Dont expect anything else.
Elise
Peak HP- 7800RPMs - 20% - 6240RPMs
Peak TQ-6800RPMs - 20% - 5440RPMs
Z06
Peak HP- 6000RPMs - 20% - 4800
Peak TQ- 48000RPMs - 20% - 3840
Viper SRT-10
Peak HP - 5600RPMs -20% - 4480
Peak TQ - 4600RPMs - 20% - 3680

CdocZ

12-24-2004, 09:25 PM

wow, which zo6 is that? that and the vipers power bands are pretty big

Slicks

12-24-2004, 09:26 PM

wait......who was it who said the vette and viper dont handle too well? whoever it is, thats a pretty retarded statement, and if it was hjholter, VERY retarded as your an america, and those 2 cars are VERY famous over here. saying those 2 cars dont handle well is like saying the holocaust never happened. its just sheer ignorance and stupidity and inability to look at numbers. road and track recently did a test, american spec lotus elise vs. the dodge viper, viper ended up almost outhandling the elise in the turns and corners, and the elise is one good little sonuvabitch when it comes to handling.
That was Marte, and he doesnt go by the numbers, they supposedy "show nothing" although they are used by every magazine.
As my post above states, Ive asked him before to prove they dont handle good, and he has yet to respond to that statement (which has been asked numerous times.)
Just sit back and see what he comes up with.

Slicks

12-24-2004, 09:27 PM

wow, which zo6 is that? that and the vipers power bands are pretty big
2002-2004 Z06.
Thats the idea, usable power....

CdocZ

12-24-2004, 09:27 PM

matra said that?! wow, not who i was expecting......

Slicks

12-24-2004, 09:31 PM

matra said that?! wow, not who i was expecting......
lol, you dont know him very well then...

EDIT: why do you think were having this debate? :p

Hjholter3

12-24-2004, 10:08 PM

wait......who was it who said the vette and viper dont handle too well? whoever it is, thats a pretty retarded statement, and if it was hjholter, VERY retarded as your an america, and those 2 cars are VERY famous over here. saying those 2 cars dont handle well is like saying the holocaust never happened. its just sheer ignorance and stupidity and inability to look at numbers. road and track recently did a test, american spec lotus elise vs. the dodge viper, viper ended up almost outhandling the elise in the turns and corners, and the elise is one good little sonuvabitch when it comes to handling.

I would never say that. I admire the Corvette ( and to a lesser extent, the Viper ). I'm just curious to know how all the Euro's can say these cars 'don't handle well' or aren't good cars based on technology when all they can put forward is interior fitament, and the Corvette or Vipers use of 'old' technology.

but again, to each their own. :rolleyes:

CdocZ

12-24-2004, 10:11 PM

lol, i was mostly jokin when i said you might have said it, your too pro american really to say something like that. im still suprised that matra said that

Hjholter3

12-24-2004, 10:30 PM

You are calling a Lotus Elise a ricer.
Don't even. I called Power-to-weight a ricer excuse when used to put a 190 horse 4 cylinder 'sports car' as a better car than the Corvette.

That should be a crime.

It is my opinion.

Otherwise your 400-horse Corvette would be beaten in a quarter-mile by a 460-horse Peterbilt!
IF it was beaten and then called power to weight, I'd laugh and call the Corvette owner a Ricer...

The reason why European sports cars are not all 6-liter monsters (like you think a sports car has to be to qualify) is that European roads are twisty, and gas costs $6 a gallon.[QUOTE]
Twisty eh? Maybe you guys need to work on that. Your gas is so expensive because your Government taxes the **** out of it, and you pay it and don't try to find a better way to be taxed.

[QUOTE]This means that European designers have to THINK about how to make their car perform, rather than just adding 100 extra cubic inches. British roads require handling, and a muscle-car against a native product on a Welsh B-road will be eaten for breakfast. Each car is designed for use in its own country, but British cars can compete overseas.

Who put a musclecar on a B-road? I can't help but laugh everytime you say anything that points to the Corvette or Viper being musclecars, 'cause where I'm from, a musclecar is a 60's through early 70's Domestic with Cubic inches, not a modern sports car.
And I don't think A Corvette or a Viper would get 'Eaten for breakfast' but if you can post a video showing that, please do.
also, someone said the roads where the same everywhere in Europe.. so where are the Autobahns? I mean, if you guys can't build a decent road, that is your problem, but the Autobahn is the closest you'll find to the beautifully long and straight roads you'll find here in Tennessee, and hell, even the curves are nice.