Was the american bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade accidental?

[d-quik]

In your opinion.

EDIT: seems to me that some people do not know what I am talking about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A15230-2000May5&notFound=true
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/338424.stm
http://cgi.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/12/kosovo.china.02/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/yugoslavia/chinese_embassy.html

[ZeTurbo]

i dont think it was intentional. still the fact no apologies were made is pretty suspicious. still, i dont think monsieur Bush would be stupid enough to do something like that intentionally.. and that is saying a lot.

[my porsche]

im not sure i know the whole story, but if its recent, igo with america, so...

[crisis]

From BBC
"President Clinton has offered deep regrets to the people of China, but said the bombing was an accident, not a barbaric act.

He echoed the words of the Nato Secretary-General, Javier Solana, in saying that the incident would not deter the alliance from continuing its air campaign. "

It would seem unlikely for the US to intentionally do this although the conspiracy-ists would no doubt have many reasons and precedents. I wonder how the US would deal with an accidental bombing of one of their embassies by China?

[SPHFerrari]

nukes


no not taht extreme but ther would be SERIOUS consequenses unfortunately.

i dont think it was intentional, what would they erally gain except suspicion or possible chinese retaliation. while we could easily win a fight with china i bet, we would still suffer casualties and its not somehting we want to be doign.

[SPHFerrari]

woops i voted wrong. can a mod change mine from no to yes but they should have apologized.

[crisis]

while we could easily win a fight with china i bet, we would still suffer casualties and its not somehting we want to be doign.
So if you suffered casualties, and I imagine thousands, how is that an easy victory?

[crisis]

woops i voted wrong. can a mod change mine from no to yes but they should have apologized.
changed

[SPHFerrari]

maybe easy was not really the right way to phrase it. inevitable maybe.

btw, thanks crisis

[d-quik]

i dont think monsieur BushWhat does bush have to do with any of this.

[crisis]

maybe easy was not really the right way to phrase it. inevitable maybe.

btw, thanks crisis
No worries.
You would have to kill quite a few million Chinese to do it. I cant imagine that they wouldnt nuke as a last ditch effort. It nukes (or not depending on your point of view) to beat the Japanese in the end and they didnt have the same population. The US is having a hell of a time subduing a few thousand (at best) Iraquis. To beat China you would have to all but anhilate it. I think you might take part of the rest of the world with it.

[NAZCA C2]

Who cares. Since when are war zones safe? If the Chinese did'nt want to get bombed they should have left when the US started bombing. Smart bombs and intel are made by people and people are'nt perfect. S**t happens.

[d-quik]

For you information, three of my relatives are chinese diplomats. both my parents have worked in the ethiopian embassy and the canadian embassy. my uncle was working at belgrade at the time but the bombing occured during his 5 month vacation he recieves every 3 year work terms.

they should have left? im sorry, but if your mother got shot by stray bullets while punks were doing a drive-by on your neighbors, can they justify it by saying "hey, you should have left, this was a battlezone."

ignorance breeds arrogance

or is it the other way around...?

either way, nazca, YOU are arrogant.

[QuattroMan]

hell no it was not, we had to show them whose the boss,that is what happens when they shat down one our planes, and they had to land in to China. ;) I don't trust the Chinese government it all... :mad:

[crisis]

Who cares. Since when are war zones safe? If the Chinese did'nt want to get bombed they should have left when the US started bombing. Smart bombs and intel are made by people and people are'nt perfect. S**t happens.
Embassies are for the good of thier nationals. If the Chinese had citizens there they had every right to stay and expect to be safe. Embassies are actually regarded as the countries own territory. Clearly you dont care which is a dissapointingly insensitive and insular attitude towards the rest of the world.
I think these people cared.

[QuattroMan]

hell no it was not, we had to show them whose the boss,that is what happens when they shat down one our planes, and they had to land in to China. ;) I don't trust the Chinese government it all... :mad:


shoooootttttt!!! i voted the wrong one can i change it please.....

[ZeTurbo]

What does bush have to do with any of this.
blatant errr of me. i got confused with another incident. apologies.

[crisis]

hell no it was not, we had to show them whose the boss,that is what happens when they shat down one our planes, and they had to land in to China. ;) I don't trust the Chinese government it all... :mad:
Then shoot down theirs. Embassies are civillian not military as far as accepted law gos. And yours are no cleaner than anyone elses.

[d-quik]

Then shoot down theirs.I think he was reffering to event where the Chinese Air Force caught a USAF spy plane dangerously near Chinese air space. So I think the chinese military had rights to shoot it had it gone into their own airspace without fear of retaliation.

[crisis]

I think he was reffering to event where the Chinese Air Force caught a USAF spy plane dangerously near Chinese air space. So I think the chinese military had rights to shoot it had it gone into their own airspace without fear of retaliation.
I know.

[d-quik]

OKAY

http://www.ohiopottery.com/mccoy/store/images/smiley.jpg

[QuattroMan]

I think he was reffering to event where the Chinese Air Force caught a USAF spy plane dangerously near Chinese air space. So I think the chinese military had rights to shoot it had it gone into their own airspace without fear of retaliation.

your right dangerously near, we were in international air space the only place we could of land it was in China, you guys are under estimating China please don't,

[Egg Nog]

your right dangerously near, we were in international air space the only place we could of land it was in China, you guys are under estimating China please don't,

How do you mean underestimating China?

[Niko_Fx]

SPH I won't even say that it would be a tough war against China... I'm going to go ahead and say that I highly doubt that the US could even win a war against China.

This what China consists of:

Navy (250,000 sailors; 63 submarines; 18 destroyers; 35 frigates)

Ground Force (Army) (1.9 million men; 14,000 tanks; 14,500 artillery pieces & 453 helicopters)

Air Force (470,000 airmen; 2,556 jet fighters; 400 ground attack jets.)

Army Total = Around 2.5 Million men and women.

In addition to that you would be fighting over a country that has an area of 9.6 million square kilometers (Iraq has 433,970...just so you have an idea)

IMO winning against China would be even harder than England, Germany or any other European super power.

[SPHFerrari]

ah you clear things up well niko. i understimated and did not think of the sheer size of china. your right it would actuallylbe a vey difficult war.


In October and November 1999, the British Observer and Danish newspaper Politiken jointly published investigative reports concluding that the U.S. military deliberately attacked the Chinese Embassy on May 7, 1999, killing three Chinese civilians and wounding more than 20 others. The reports stated that the embassy was targeted after it was discovered it was relaying Yugoslav military signals and that the conscious attack was covered up thereafter by U.S. officials.
from the washington post link that was posted. it seems to me, i may be misreading this, that if they were relaying enemy military signals, they are aiding the enemy and i think that would be enough justification for the bombing. if i am misreading this someone point uot what it is supposed to mean. i still find it sad that those people died. they wre, as someone said, civilion not military. howevery if they were helpning the enemy then i dont know.

[motorsportnerd]

hell no it was not, we had to show them whose the boss,that is what happens when they shat down one our planes, and they had to land in to China. ;) I don't trust the Chinese government it all... :mad:

I think you're getting confused on the dates of these events.
The Chinese Embassy was bombed during the Serbian war in April 1999.
The incident with the spy plane in China happened in February 2001.

On the surface the two events are entirely unrelated.
The US was certainly not retaliating to the spy plane incident when it bombed the Chinese embassy, since the bombing of the embassy happened first.
One could potentially argue the the incident with the spy plane was one way for the Chinese government to retaliate over the bombing of their embassy.
More likely, the two events have no connection to each other.

Also, in response to a few suggestions the the US could beat China in a war. Neither would win that one. Probably billions would die. It would be World War 3 - and neither nation would be keen to start it.

[SPHFerrari]

and may i ask what brought this up. why are you posting on this now?

[SPHFerrari]

Also, in response to a few suggestions the the US could beat China in a war. Neither would win that one. Probably billions would die. It would be World War 3 - and neither nation would be keen to start it.
yea i haqve changed my opinion. you are very right. war had changed a lot since the last world war and now it would cause who knows what. do the chinese have nuclear weapons?

[motorsportnerd]

Yes, the Chinese certainly have nuclear weapons. And a space program. They're probably only a generation or two behind the US technologically, and catching up.

[d-quik]

they are aiding the enemy and i think that would be enough justification for the bombing. if i am misreading this someone point uot what it is supposed to mean. i still find it sad that those people died. they wre, as someone said, civilion not military. howevery if they were helpning the enemy then i dont know.Its like this. Say if one of your friends needed a knife for cutting something. So you give him the knife and forgets to give it back to you. A week later, he murders someone with the knife, and then the court orders three half-ton smart bombs to be dropped on your building, because you helped with the murder by giving the murderer a weapon.

As for relaying messages, we don't even know if the people inside that buildign knew they were military signals. hell they might have not even known there were signals in the first place, it might have been automated.

On the nuclear weapons topic, France, UK, USA, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and Israel (thanks for peter and among others for telling me this) have nuclear weapons.

Why did I start this topic? I just bored :D

I kinda also want to know why the building was a target for bombing anyways. And no, it was not because the usa wanted to annoy china, thats just stupid.:cool:

[Niko_Fx]

To clarify some stuff up:

I did say the US wouldn't win. I never said that therefore China would be victorious.

Motorsportnerd's thoughts = exactly mine. Thousands of deaths and no good outcome. For the US it would be another Vietnam and this time ending even worse. The idea of invading China would be impossible.

Anyway, who cares? Let's just hope it never happens.

Now go back to the main topic.

[SPHFerrari]

Its like this. Say if one of your friends needed a knife for cutting something. So you give him the knife and forgets to give it back to you. A week later, he murders someone with the knife, and then the court orders three half-ton smart bombs to be dropped on your building, because you helped with the murder by giving the murderer a weapon.

As for relaying messages, we don't even know if the people inside that buildign knew they were military signals. hell they might have not even known there were signals in the first place, it might have been automated.

On the nuclear weapons topic, France, UK, USA, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and Israel (thanks for peter and among others for telling me this) have nuclear weapons.

Why did I start this topic? I just bored :D

I kinda also want to know why the building was a target for bombing anyways. And no, it was not because the usa wanted to annoy china, thats just stupid.:cool:
well its more like you let your friend borrow a knife and then he gives it to someone to stab you. so then what do you do? you drop three half-ton smart bombs on his house of course:D

not to make light of the subject.

your right, i tihnk it was sad because it probably wasnt the people who died who had anything to do with it.

all these countries with nuclear weapons, a world war would be mighty shitty.

i wouldnt be surprised if china catches up and surpasses us technologically in the near future. their schools are much longer (240 days i think?) and more competitive and the young adults now are on average much better educated tahn americans or many europeans.

[Matra et Alpine]

i wouldnt be surprised if china catches up and surpasses us technologically in the near future. their schools are much longer (240 days i think?) and more competitive and the young adults now are on average much better educated tahn americans or many europeans.
and all our companies are taking the manufacturing of our equipment to China because it's cheaper to do there.
it also takes the technology and knowledge, so China will advance to equal at a greater rate and will ahve the knowledge and the experience which we lack as we've moved it all "off shore".

[QuattroMan]

Originally Posted by SPHFerrari
i wouldnt be surprised if china catches up and surpasses us technologically in the near future. their schools are much longer (240 days i think?) and more competitive and the young adults now are on average much better educated tahn americans or many europeans.


and all our companies are taking the manufacturing of our equipment to China because it's cheaper to do there.
it also takes the technology and knowledge, so China will advance to equal at a greater rate and will ahve the knowledge and the experience which we lack as we've moved it all "off shore".

Thanks to matara that exactly what I'm trying to say, as time well go on China is going to be more and more smarter and stronger by countries like yours and mine,We continuously send our country man jobs to them with it our technologically. You know what guys???! just think of it this way if China was a super power country,do you think you and i would of been free people?? i don't thinks so, look at there Government know if you say any thing wrong your @ss is dead.....I hate the Chines goverment.....

[Matt]

Isn't China already considered a superpower? And what is the criteria for being a superpower? Quattroman, don't say "Being the US", because I'm sure that's what you think...

[my porsche]

everyone lighten up here, :p

[Matt]

I would actually say that Germany, France and Spain did both of those things quite well 2 years ago...

[Matt]

Actually, no one is able to influence every country in the world militarily.

[Matt]

Obviously, we were unable to militarily influence MANY countries. Otherwise, we wouldn't be in Iraq with as few allies as we are.

[QuattroMan]

No its actually NOT like that at all.yesI've lived in china for 9 years and I am fine. Don't talk about stuff you know nothing about.

if you loved there so much,!!l you should got your @ss back there "jack" :D

[Matt]

Would you consider Al Qaeda a world superpower?

[d-quik]

Would you consider Al Qaeda a world superpower?nope, no econimical influence over most of the countries:cool:

[Matt]

Not true...

Their actions GREATLY influenced our economy and the economy of the world. They have also influenced nearly every military in the world - either positively or negatively.

[Matt]

nope, no econimical influence over most of the countries:cool:

And actually...if they influenced our economy at all...and if our economy is able to influence the economy of the world...they influenced the world economy simply by influencing ours.

[my porsche]

Would you consider Al Qaeda a world superpower?

i would consider them "a world peice of shit"

[Matt]

i would consider them "a world peice of shit"

Superpower is not defined by good or bad.

[my porsche]

Superpower is not defined by good or bad.

ok, then world, um, not quite super, so world medium power

[Rockefella]

Al Qaeda is for sure a world superpower. A terrorist group that strikes fear in the most powerful countries on the face of the earth def. earns Al Qaeda superpower status.

[my porsche]

Al Qaeda is for sure a world superpower. A terrorist group that strikes fear in the most powerful countries on the face of the earth def. earns Al Qaeda superpower status.

anyone can strike fear into france :p

[Matt]

ok, then world, um, not quite super, so world medium power

They are actually the biggest human threat the world has ever seen. I would say that definitely grants them more than medium power.

[crisis]

i would consider them "a world peice of shit"
Me too but I have more tolerance for sh!t. Matts right though. A comparativley tiny, ill equipped group of motivated psychos have influenced the world in ways a superpower could never. Most Western countries are now spending billions more on security and defence. It now takes longer to get onto some planes than it does to complete the rest of the journey (all time and money). Certain countries economies have been affected by drops in tourism. The US and others have comitted them selves to two wars both costly in dollars and lives and possible outcomes. The relationships between NATO countries and the UN is compromised. Once great allies are stronlgy divided in their philosophies of world affairs. A huge and damaging wedge has been driven between many Christians and Muslims. Millions of Muslims now bear the burden of association with these small groups of f/wits (probably the most ironic consequence though also probably quite sweet with Al Queda). The world has changed fundamentally and peoples attitude to how they live their lives.
So we may need another definition for superpower.

[my porsche]

They are actually the biggest human threat the world has ever seen. I would say that definitely grants them more than medium power.
how many people have they killed anywy?

[crisis]

They are actually the biggest human threat the world has ever seen. I would say that definitely grants them more than medium power.
Its hard to say. I would say they are definitely percieved that way. They are certainly a psychological threat. I do beleive their "best" work is behind them. The WTC attack was most devastating butI dont think they will ever be able to mount such an attack again be the mere fact that the world is now watching them so closley. Indeed most attacks from all related groups are on either Arab or Asian, Mulsim soil. They have changed our idea of how safe the world is which is a victory for them but there capacity to kill and destroy outside of their own back yard is now compromised. I hope.

[Matt]

Economies are driven mostly by perception. That strongly influences the market and in turn the markets strongly influence more people's perceptions. Fear is a greatest motivator and the greatest devastator.

[Matt]

how many people have they killed anywy?

Depends on what you can attribute to them. Would you consider only acts that have been claimed by Al Qaeda? Or would you consider the acts of other organizations/groups/individuals who claim to have the same beliefs and have been influenced by Al Qaeda? Al Qaeda has basically created a world-wide following that can probably be attributed to hundreds of thousands of death and trillions of dollars in destruction.

[my porsche]

Depends on what you can attribute to them. Would you consider only acts that have been claimed by Al Qaeda? Or would you consider the acts of other organizations/groups/individuals who claim to have the same beliefs and have been influenced by Al Qaeda? Al Qaeda has basically created a world-wide following that can probably be attributed to hundreds of thousands of death and trillions of dollars in destruction.

exactly, so they are an evil superpower, and who is that guy that is heading all this anti-free election stuff in iraq?

[Matt]

exactly, so they are an evil superpower, and who is that guy that is heading all this anti-free election stuff in iraq?

Zarquawi? or however you spell it...he's pleged allegiance to Al Qaeda.

[my porsche]

Zarquawi? or however you spell it...he's pleged allegiance to Al Qaeda.


yeah thats him! someone needs to put a bullet through his brain

[crisis]

Economies are driven mostly by perception. That strongly influences the market and in turn the markets strongly influence more people's perceptions. Fear is a greatest motivator and the greatest devastator.
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Yoda
from a galaxy far far away.

[QuattroMan]

Zarquawi? or however you spell it...he's pleged allegiance to Al Qaeda.
China is not superpower yet, but that is what I'm tying to tell you matt,
the day China becomes one, we are in deep sh@t,,,,,criteria?? just look
around my friend do you see China going around trying to help any one
but them self's and i wished the God that we should of been the same, don't
give a @uck about any country let them go the hell for i care but no,
we the real Americans love to help, we love to go out there and kick
some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... :D

[Egg Nog]

China is not superpower yet, but that is what I'm tying to tell you matt,
the day China becomes one, we are in deep sh@t,,,,,criteria?? just look
around my friend do you see China going around trying to help any one
but them self's and i wished the God that we should of been the same, don't
give a @uck about any country let them go the hell for i care but no,
we the real Americans love to help, we love to go out there and kick
some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... :D

Oh come on, seriously.

Your arguments are chock full of double standards. You make it obvious that you hold the USA in a much better light than China, but you haven't given any real reasons why, only judgments and assumptions.

"Do you see China helping anyone but themselves"

Of course China and Chinese people help other goddamn people! What kind of a claim is that? There are loads of Chinese people out there being helpful all the time - for example, sizable tsunami donations all the way from the government to the poorest central rural areas.

Well over half of all Chinese people are either Buddhist or Taoist - these aren't the kind of people who are going to let their government go to war with the Unites States as you've said, if China continues to gain power or not.

[d-quik]

China is not superpower yet, but that is what I'm tying to tell you matt,
the day China becomes one, we are in deep sh@t,,,,,criteria?? just look
around my friend do you see China going around trying to help any one
but them self's and i wished the God that we should of been the same, don't
give a @uck about any country let them go the hell for i care but no,
we the real Americans love to help, we love to go out there and kick
some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... :DYOU IGNORANT ISOLATED PIECE OF WORTHLESSNESS

BUDDY, do you know why china does not "help" other countries as much as the united states, let me paint you a picture. we are shit in national dept, we have over 1 billion people to feed, 80% of them are poor. and dont give me this bullshit "we the real Americans love to help". let me tell you this, you are an EMBARRASMENT to americans. when foreign people say they hate america, they mean they hate americans like YOU. pick up some slack god dammit. "we the real Americans love to help"??

Let me shine you some light buddy, the United states is one of the most economically imperialistic countries in the world. 90% of the things the USA does outside the country is for what we call SELF INTEREST. Sure you could say "the usa saved the world from hitler 60 years ago, praise us". guess what buddy, the USSR coulda done it without the bloody invasion of normandy. all Britain had to do was fight off the luftwaffe and the Red Army was already reverse-blitzing their way to berlin. also, you know one main reason teh USA was sooooo good in 1944? ITS BECAUSE THEY ENTERED THE WAR FIVE YEARS AFTER IT BEGAN!. gee, after witnessing three of the world's most powerful nations duke it out for five years, theres bound to weaknesses. any idiot can figure that out. oh wait!

Not to mention that USA allied with Germany and Japan soon after WWII, you think they ENJOY allying with a former enemy? HELL NO, it is because it served their self-interest. They had a new enemy to deal with, and allying with those nations was strategically a good choice, not because they wanted to help those nations and the government "love to help".

Korean war?
SELF INTEREST!
Position of korea was key for blocking communist expansion

Vietnam war?
YOU KNOW IT
Positioning of Vietnam again.

Gulf war?
AGAIN, for the bloody kuwaiti oil. position of kuwait. do you really think americans went in just to help out the smaller country? please

And not the iraq war?
I think this is pretty selfless, but only because Bush was stupid enough to do it.

look buddy, i am not here to bash the united states at all. the world needs a super-power. usa is not bad at all, but "we the real Americans love to help" kinda pissed me off. americans are not at fault, it is the government. Quattro man, i will say this and I mean it: You are an embarresment. I hate you.

[crisis]

YOU IGNORANT ISOLATED PIECE OF WORTHLESSNESS

BUDDY, do you know why china does not "help" other countries as much as the united states, let me paint you a picture. we are shit in national dept, we have over 1 billion people to feed, 80% of them are poor. and dont give me this bullshit "we the real Americans love to help". let me tell you this, you are an EMBARRASMENT to americans. when foreign people say they hate america, they mean they hate americans like YOU. pick up some slack god dammit. "we the real Americans love to help"??

Let me shine you some light buddy, the United states is one of the most economically imperialistic countries in the world. 90% of the things the USA does outside the country is for what we call SELF INTEREST. Sure you could say "the usa saved the world from hitler 60 years ago, praise us". guess what buddy, the USSR coulda done it without the bloody invasion of normandy. all Britain had to do was fight off the luftwaffe and the Red Army was already reverse-blitzing their way to berlin. also, you know one main reason teh USA was sooooo good in 1944? ITS BECAUSE THEY ENTERED THE WAR FIVE YEARS AFTER IT BEGAN!. gee, after witnessing three of the world's most powerful nations duke it out for five years, theres bound to weaknesses. any idiot can figure that out. oh wait!

Not to mention that USA allied with Germany and Japan soon after WWII, you think they ENJOY allying with a former enemy? HELL NO, it is because it served their self-interest. They had a new enemy to deal with, and allying with those nations was strategically a good choice, not because they wanted to help those nations and the government "love to help".

Korean war?
SELF INTEREST!
Position of korea was key for blocking communist expansion

Vietnam war?
YOU KNOW IT
Positioning of Vietnam again.

Gulf war?
AGAIN, for the bloody kuwaiti oil. position of kuwait. do you really think americans went in just to help out the smaller country? please

And not the iraq war?
I think this is pretty selfless, but only because Bush was stupid enough to do it.

look buddy, i am not here to bash the united states at all. the world needs a super-power. usa is not bad at all, but "we the real Americans love to help" kinda pissed me off. americans are not at fault, it is the government. Quattro man, i will say this and I mean it: You are an embarresment. I hate you.
Yeah :eek:
I see you feel strongly about this. It is good to see the other side of the US through people like you. It helps make sure I personally dont use the term Americans as a collective term to describe the redneck element as , well Americans.

[crisis]

China is not superpower yet, but that is what I'm tying to tell you matt,
the day China becomes one, we are in deep sh@t,,,,,criteria?? just look
around my friend do you see China going around trying to help any one
but them self's and i wished the God that we should of been the same, don't
give a @uck about any country let them go the hell for i care but no,
we the real Americans love to help, we love to go out there and kick
some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... :D
Although Dquick went off somewhat you desrved it. Your insular and childish comments about kicking ass give an insight to the worst elements in any society. I presume you are sitting in the comfort of mommys home, watching cable tv show you cool images of US weapons wiping out cities and people somewhere, thankfully, across the other side of the world all safe and snug sucking on a soda. Its no game, its no movie, its no picnic and you would not be loving it so much if you were out ther watching your mates getting killed doing it. Your coments are typical of those which illicit the worst ideas others have of the US . Lucky us less blinkered, bigoted and simple minded know not all Americans are like you.
Look at that. I went off too.

[QuattroMan]

Yeah :eek:
I see you feel strongly about this. It is good to see the other side of the US through people like you. It helps make sure I personally dont use the term Americans as a collective term to describe the redneck element as , well Americans.

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,

[QuattroMan]

YOU IGNORANT ISOLATED PIECE OF WORTHLESSNESS

BUDDY, do you know why china does not "help" other countries as much as the united states, let me paint you a picture. we are shit in national dept, we have over 1 billion people to feed, 80% of them are poor. and dont give me this bullshit "we the real Americans love to help". let me tell you this, you are an EMBARRASMENT to americans. when foreign people say they hate america, they mean they hate americans like YOU. pick up some slack god dammit. "we the real Americans love to help"??

Let me shine you some light buddy, the United states is one of the most economically imperialistic countries in the world. 90% of the things the USA does outside the country is for what we call SELF INTEREST. Sure you could say "the usa saved the world from hitler 60 years ago, praise us". guess what buddy, the USSR coulda done it without the bloody invasion of normandy. all Britain had to do was fight off the luftwaffe and the Red Army was already reverse-blitzing their way to berlin. also, you know one main reason teh USA was sooooo good in 1944? ITS BECAUSE THEY ENTERED THE WAR FIVE YEARS AFTER IT BEGAN!. gee, after witnessing three of the world's most powerful nations duke it out for five years, theres bound to weaknesses. any idiot can figure that out. oh wait!

Not to mention that USA allied with Germany and Japan soon after WWII, you think they ENJOY allying with a former enemy? HELL NO, it is because it served their self-interest. They had a new enemy to deal with, and allying with those nations was strategically a good choice, not because they wanted to help those nations and the government "love to help".

Korean war?
SELF INTEREST!
Position of korea was key for blocking communist expansion

Vietnam war?
YOU KNOW IT
Positioning of Vietnam again.

Gulf war?
AGAIN, for the bloody kuwaiti oil. position of kuwait. do you really think americans went in just to help out the smaller country? please

And not the iraq war?
I think this is pretty selfless, but only because Bush was stupid enough to do it.

look buddy, i am not here to bash the united states at all. the world needs a super-power. usa is not bad at all, but "we the real Americans love to help" kinda pissed me off. americans are not at fault, it is the government. Quattro man, i will say this and I mean it: You are an embarresment. I hate you.


THIS WAS FOR YOU ....

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,

[QuattroMan]

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,


THIS WAS FOR MR.D@CK-QUIK,,,SORRY

[Rockefella]

THIS WAS FOR YOU ....

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,
you said the same exact thing in the last post.

[QuattroMan]

you said the same exact thing in the last post.

I made a mistake it was for d-quik not for crisis... :)

[d-quik]

Im not pissed because you are different, I'm pissed because some of the stuff you said was nowhere near the truth.

[my porsche]

BUDDY, do you know why china does not "help" other countries as much as the united states, let me paint you a picture. we are shit in national dept, we have over 1 billion people to feed, 80% of them are poor. and dont give me this bullshit "we the real Americans love to help". let me tell you this, you are an EMBARRASMENT to americans. when foreign people say they hate america, they mean they hate americans like YOU. pick up some slack god dammit. "we the real Americans love to help"??



what the liberal media leavs out i that every president in the history of the nited states of america has been in debt, they credit cinton for bringing us out of the recession, look at the numbers andbush sr. had us fully outof recession before clinton was elected

any president is going to be in huge debt, tats just how the country is, any president that goes to war is going to be further in debt thn normal president

notgoing to argue bout poor people, cuzits true, but is it w's fault? no

and dont go caling Q a giant peice of worthlessness

[Matt]

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,


Last I checked, West Virigina is in the US.

Tell me, do you say things about France or Germany or Australia or anywhere else when you're not a citizen of those countries?

[QuattroMan]

Im not pissed because you are different, I'm pissed because some of the stuff you said was nowhere near the truth.

what is the truth? the truth is what you believe in not I, any ways
give it up I don't need to you get mad at me ......I simply don't like
or trust the Chinese government...

[Matt]

Yet you can't give real reasons as to why...

[Matt]

what the liberal media leavs out i that every president in the history of the nited states of america has been in debt, they credit cinton for bringing us out of the recession, look at the numbers andbush sr. had us fully outof recession before clinton was elected

any president is going to be in huge debt, tats just how the country is, any president that goes to war is going to be further in debt thn normal president

notgoing to argue bout poor people, cuzits true, but is it w's fault? no

and dont go caling Q a giant peice of worthlessness

I got the impression that when he was talking that about the country being in debt and having a billion people to feed that he was talking about China. We don't have anywhere near 1 billion citizens in the US.

[my porsche]

I got the impression that when he was talking that about the country being in debt and having a billion people to feed that he was talking about China. We don't have anywhere near 1 billion citizens in the US.

oohhhhhh, oopssorry, disregard what i said


and WOW they have THAT may people? dang, i hope we diont ever go to war with the, thyed have an endless army

[Matt]

oohhhhhh, oopssorry, disregard what i said


and WOW they have THAT may people? dang, i hope we diont ever go to war with the, thyed have an endless army


It's actually 1.3 billion. Their .3 is bigger than our populatioin.


You REALLY need to do some reading - and about something other than the wonderful military victories of the US.

[my porsche]

It's actually 1.3 billion. Their .3 is bigger than our populatioin.


You REALLY need to do some reading - and about something other than the wonderful military victories of the US.

i only read about cars, soccer, and whatever the school assigns

[Matt]

i only read about cars, soccer, and whatever the school assigns


Then don't talk about things you know nothing about.

[Rockefella]

Then don't talk about things you know nothing about.
owned. But, it'd be absolutely retarded to get into a war w/ China. Although it'd most likely end up as a wasted cause similarly to Vietnam or Iraq.. or America nuking China, it would make no sense. With our dumbfounded George Dubya at the helm, War is like a game on the computer, the more wars and victories, the better. I wonder what his reaction would be if he was put into uniform and sent into Iraq. Edit: no one really brought up war w/ China but I'm just bashing Bush, I hate the man with a passion.

[my porsche]

Then don't talk about things you know nothing about.

i read about the us government, but i though he was talking abiout US!!!!!! god i didnt know he was talking about china

[Matt]

i read about the us government, but i though he was talking abiout US!!!!!! god i didnt know he was talking about china

But, the incredible size of the Chinese population is well-known. The fact that you didn't know that astounds me.

[d-quik]

i read about the us government, but i though he was talking abiout US!!!!!! god i didnt know he was talking about chinaIf you do read about the US governemnt then you woulda known this country does not have a billion people in it, mate.

[Rockefella]

If you do read about the US governemnt then you woulda known this country does not have a billion people in it, mate.
If I'm not mistaken we're just at 1/4 of a billion...

[my porsche]

If you do read about the US governemnt then you woulda known this country does not have a billion people in it, mate.

i said i read about government, not the census, mate.

[Matt]

i said i read about government, not the census, and according to matt, china is 1.3 billion, and according to matt, that is .3 billion nore than us, if you can subtract at a first gade level, thats 1 billion for the u.s., mate.


No, no, no. That' snot what I meant. I said that even just their .3 is bigger than our entire population. They have 1.05 billion more people...

[my porsche]

No, no, no. That' snot what I meant. I said that even just their .3 is bigger than our entire population. They have 1.05 billion more people...

i know, i misread it, i went back and read it right after i posted, my mistake

[Matt]

i said i read about government, not the census, mate.

Again, astounding. You don't know the population of your own country...And if I remember correctly you thought that the vast majority of the citizens of our country made over $100k/year. GO TO THE DAMN LIBRARY!

[d-quik]

i said i read about government, not the census, and according to matt, china is 1.3 billion, and according to matt, that is .3 billion nore than us, if you can subtract at a first gade level, thats 1 billion for the u.s., mate.I can not reply to anything you say anymore, honestly. How can you argue with a person that doesn't even understand what you are saying :(.

[my porsche]

I can not reply to anything you say anymore, honestly. How can you argue with a person that doesn't even understand what you are saying :(.

HAHAHAHA

[d-quik]

HAHAHAHAsee what I mean?

*sighs* :(

[my porsche]

and dick quick, your sig only further proves how bitter in general demecrsats are, you could have just not done that, and left the right v. left arguement in this thread

[my porsche]

see what I mean?

*sighs* :(

no, not really, it think your the one with problems if you cant understand what im saying when i say "haha"

[Rockefella]

Let me make this easy on everyone gentlemen: Click here MP (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html)

[Matt]

and dick quick, your sig only further proves how bitter in general demecrsats are, you could have just not done that, and left the right v. left arguement in this thread

It has nothing to do with democrats, shithead.

[my porsche]

It has nothing to do with democrats, shithead.

lets all just take a deep breath and say, wussah, and no need for the language

[Rockefella]

and dick quick, your sig only further proves how bitter in general demecrsats are, you could have just not done that, and left the right v. left arguement in this thread
I'm sure D-Quik's sarcastic bitterness which I don't mind at all represents every democrat in the nation. I am a Democrat and feel that I am in no way any more bitter than you and the fellow republicans on the forum. :(

[Matt]

lets all just take a deep breath and say, wussah, and no need for the language

It was only a response to your language in the previous post.

[my porsche]

Let me make this easy on everyone gentlemen: Click here MP (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html)

i alrady realise that the population is 300 million, i just misread what matt said

[my porsche]

It was only a response to your language in the previous post.

shit is a worse word than dick

[d-quik]

shit is a worse word than dickand im guessing table is such a much more repulsive word than elbow.:cool:

[Matt]

shit is a worse word than dick


Why do you say that?

[QuattroMan]

Last I checked, West Virigina is in the US.

Tell me, do you say things about France or Germany or Australia or anywhere else when you're not a citizen of those countries?

Don't have any thing against France or Germany or Australias, how can I hate civilized countries? matt what are you trying to say,"Last I checked, West Virginia is in the US" lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....

[crisis]

I'm sorry that you hate me but you have absolutely and I mean ABSOLUTELY no right to say the things your saying about me, I have every right to say what I feel, if you feel that im wrong then say it don't bash me. I'm the same guy if I see you need my help ill pull over to help, I'm the same guy if you brake your leg ill get you the help you need, yes im that guy,so if you hate because I feel deferent then you, then im sorry, I just hate it when my friends are fighting out there, and we have none US citizens like live in my country and talk sh@t about us,,,,,,,
Forget the hate crap. Its not about hating you. Its about what I think of your simplistic, insensitive comments about your country attacking others .It is not a PC game where you beat the other guy and turn it off and come back tomorrow. It is real and the killing is real. Its about how I find you comment "we love to go out there and kicksome @ss's I love every minuet of it.... " abhorrent. To love anything about killing and maiming and the impact it has on everyone involved is at best childish. I am attacking your sentiment , not you. Sure I made comments about you sitting at home in comfort watching this all go on and being totally insulated from the pain and suffering. So am I. Its what I think when I see it thats different. I wish it would all stop.

[Rockefella]

Don't have any thing against France or Germany or Australias, how can I hate civilized countries? matt what are you trying to say,"Last I checked, West Virginia is in the US" lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....
someone else take over for... I don't want to deal w/ communism and how China could have rubbed off on D-quik.

[d-quik]

Don't have any thing against France or Germany or Australias, how can I hate civilized countries? matt what are you trying to say,"Last I checked, West Virginia is in the US" lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....wow you don't know shit about real communism douchebag. for the sake of all americans please quit you're ahead. and in case you haven't knowtice china has be "civalized" for about

OVER 2000 YEARS

And for me, I obtained canadian citizenship when I was 14 years of age, and I have been working here in the united states for about a year now and I love all three of these countries.

[crisis]

and im guessing table is such a much more repulsive word than elbow.:cool:
laughed out loud.

[QuattroMan]

wow you don't know shit about real communism douchebag. for the sake of all americans please quit you're ahead. and in case you haven't knowtice china has be "civalized" for about

OVER 2000 YEARS

And for me, I obtained canadian citizenship when I was 14 years of age, and I have been working here in the united states for about a year now and I love all three of these countries.

just answer my question, are you a Chinese decedent??? that is all I want to know...

[crisis]

Forget the hate crap. Its not about hating you. Its about what I think of your simplistic, insensitive comments about your country attacking others .It is not a PC game where you beat the other guy and turn it off and come back tomorrow. It is real and the killing is real. Its about how I find you comment "we love to go out there and kicksome @ss's I love every minuet of it.... " abhorrent. To love anything about killing and maiming and the impact it has on everyone involved is at best childish. I am attacking your sentiment , not you. Sure I made comments about you sitting at home in comfort watching this all go on and being totally insulated from the pain and suffering. So am I. Its what I think when I see it thats different. I wish it would all stop.
I noticed MyPorsche meant this for DQuick and I was going to delete it but I wont as it clears up my point a little.

[d-quik]

just answer my question, are you a Chinese decedent??? that is all I want to know...does my ethnicity matter? you ****ing racist.

[QuattroMan]

wow you don't know shit about real communism douchebag. for the sake of all americans please quit you're ahead. and in case you haven't knowtice china has be "civalized" for about

OVER 2000 YEARS

And for me, I obtained canadian citizenship when I was 14 years of age, and I have been working here in the united states for about a year now and I love all three of these countries.

That's really nice,you have Canadian citizenship working in my country and yet your talking sh@t to me,,,,,,that is classic,,,this I have to let my friends to read,,,,

[QuattroMan]

does my ethnicity matter? you ****ing racist.


no it dose not matter, I no longer need it buy the way you act, grow up please.OH!! don't be a shame for being Chinese, "RACIST" nice thank you.

[Rockefella]

That's really nice,you have Canadian citizenship working in my country and yet your talking sh@t to me,,,,,,that is classic,,,this I have to let my friends to read,,,,
My parents aren't citizens in this country and they both work here and talk shit to people they don't like, I don't understand why not being a citizen is so bad. Quattro, I'm just curious, were you born in the United States?

[QuattroMan]

Forget the hate crap. Its not about hating you. Its about what I think of your simplistic, insensitive comments about your country attacking others .It is not a PC game where you beat the other guy and turn it off and come back tomorrow. It is real and the killing is real. Its about how I find you comment "we love to go out there and kicksome @ss's I love every minuet of it.... " abhorrent. To love anything about killing and maiming and the impact it has on everyone involved is at best childish. I am attacking your sentiment , not you. Sure I made comments about you sitting at home in comfort watching this all go on and being totally insulated from the pain and suffering. So am I. Its what I think when I see it thats different. I wish it would all stop.

Oh I see, when I said this"we love to go out there and kick some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... " it was not intend to a common people, it was in tend to terrorists and thing like that, are you kidding me, I would never back my country if we went out there and just kill people for no reason,,,,

[crisis]

Oh I see, when I said this"we love to go out there and kick some @ss's I love every minuet of it.... " it was not intend to a common people, it was in tend to terrorists and thing like that, are you kidding me, I would never back my country if we went out there and just kill people for no reason,,,,
I like to see the terrorists get theirs too, and sometimes I think the worse the better. But someone still has to risk everthing to do it. What is the current toll of US service people so far for not nailing Osama Bin Laden?

[Rockefella]

I like to see the terrorists get theirs too, and sometimes I think the worse the better. But someone still has to risk everthing to do it. What is the current toll of US service people so far for not nailing Osama Bin Laden?
A whole bunch thats for sure :( What annoys me is that Clinton had the guy, but they didn't pursue because Bin Laden wasn't that much of a threat at the time. It all could have ended there but terrorism booned and on-came Iraq/Pakistan.

[QuattroMan]

My parents aren't citizens in this country and they both work here and talk shit to people they don't like, I don't understand why not being a citizen is so bad. Quattro, I'm just curious, were you born in the United States?

What do you think Rockefella? the only two Americans on UCP that I know of MY-PORSCHE and my self don't talk shit about America, I always said this and always well,,, IF ANY ONE DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOSE??!! THEN GET THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT,,,, I don't care
if at the time our president is Republican nor Democrat I'm 100% for my country, I'm sick and tired of bunch of !@#$%^&*, why would any one post this stupid tread,what would you try to say,every time you turn the TV on you see other countries protesting against America, and when something dose go wrong we expected to be there,,,,BULL that is my tax money that goes there,,,like I say I wish the god that America would just stay out of things,,,let dose mf kill them self I don't care.

[Niko_Fx]

What do you think Rockefella? the only two Americans on UCP that I know of MY-PORSCHE and my self don't talk shit about America, I always said this and always well,,, IF ANY ONE DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOSE??!! THEN GET THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT,,,, I don't care
if at the time our president is Republican nor Democrat I'm 100% for my country, I'm sick and tired of bunch of !@#$%^&*, why would any one post this stupid tread,what would you try to say,every time you turn the TV on you see other countries protesting against America, and when something dose go wrong we expected to be there,,,,BULL that is my tax money that goes there,,,like I say I wish the god that America would just stay out of things,,,let dose mf kill them self I don't care.

1 - You have to be an Idiot if you agree with everything that your country does.

2 - Americans can talk $h*t about their government if they feel like it, that does not make them "Not Americans"

3 - Your tax money goes to the STUPID war that your president is conducting at this moment. Nice way to spend it heh. (And BTW my dad, my family and myself contribute to the US of America's f*ck*ng taxes wether we like it or not we have to do it... HELL at least give US the right to criticize the friggin system)

Quattro go and read your posts man, you are NOT on the right track my man, some of them don't even make sense.

[Matt]

What do you think Rockefella? the only two Americans on UCP that I know of MY-PORSCHE and my self don't talk shit about America, I always said this and always well,,, IF ANY ONE DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOSE??!! THEN GET THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT,,,, I don't care
if at the time our president is Republican nor Democrat I'm 100% for my country, I'm sick and tired of bunch of !@#$%^&*, why would any one post this stupid tread,what would you try to say,every time you turn the TV on you see other countries protesting against America, and when something dose go wrong we expected to be there,,,,BULL that is my tax money that goes there,,,like I say I wish the god that America would just stay out of things,,,let dose mf kill them self I don't care.

The only two Americans? That's laughable. The majority of members on this site are American. I'm American. Do you hear me idiotically defending everything my country does just because I'm American? Blindly defending your country is not patriotic. It's idiotic.

[Matt]

just answer my question, are you a Chinese decedent??? that is all I want to know...

What's a decedent? Are you trying to say dissident? And if so, do you even know what that means?

[Rockefella]

What do you think Rockefella? the only two Americans on UCP that I know of MY-PORSCHE and my self don't talk shit about America, I always said this and always well,,, IF ANY ONE DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOSE??!! THEN GET THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT,,,, I don't care
if at the time our president is Republican nor Democrat I'm 100% for my country, I'm sick and tired of bunch of !@#$%^&*, why would any one post this stupid tread,what would you try to say,every time you turn the TV on you see other countries protesting against America, and when something dose go wrong we expected to be there,,,,BULL that is my tax money that goes there,,,like I say I wish the god that America would just stay out of things,,,let dose mf kill them self I don't care.
I never knew Democrat's weren't considered Americans. If I told you I was republican how much would your view of me change? I don't want to criticize you but you and MP are hardcore Rep's that are always bashing liberal ways just because we think Bush is an imbecil. The only reason I go against America in some ways is that I have the right to, when I earn money working, where does 1/3 of it go... taxes. Do I have a choice no. However, I do have a choice in arguing my point on an internet forum and representing my dislike for some of our gov's systems.

[QuattroMan]

I like to see the terrorists get theirs too, and sometimes I think the worse the better. But someone still has to risk everthing to do it. What is the current toll of US service people so far for not nailing Osama Bin Laden?


I don't know how many but God bless America we a have volunteer forces this guys are there is because they want it,and yes it comes with the risks.

[QuattroMan]

I never knew Democrat's weren't considered Americans. If I told you I was republican how much would your view of me change? I don't want to criticize you but you and MP are hardcore Rep's that are always bashing liberal ways just because we think Bush is an imbecil. The only reason I go against America in some ways is that I have the right to, when I earn money working, where does 1/3 of it go... taxes. Do I have a choice no. However, I do have a choice in arguing my point on an internet forum and representing my dislike for some of our gov's systems.

hey i'm with you except the bush part :D

[QuattroMan]

What's a decedent? Are you trying to say dissident? And if so, do you even know what that means?

thank you matt.....

[Rockefella]

I don't know how many but God bless America we a have volunteer forces this guys are there is because they want it,and yes it comes with the risks.
This is true, God Bless them, but most of these people DON'T support Bush's methods, and want this pointless war in Iraq to end. Condom-leeza Rice was questioned by a senator (From Connecticut I believe) and when asked about the mistake the Bush team made about WMD's in Iraq, she got all bitchy and tried to explain that they had reason to enter Iraq and it doesn't mean the WMD's werent there, they just might not have found them. The Bush team knows they messed up and just cant fess up to it. Sure, Saddam Hussein is gone, Iraq is better.. congratulations free Iraqi citizens, you deserve it. But was it worth the massive amount of money, prob. in the high billions or even trillions to go into war, lose 1,000+ lives, and put soldiers through hell for 2 years, personally, I think it's stupid. I know of 2 soldiers in my town who went to the military (marines) as a stepping-stone to college, in order to receive a free-ride or a large deduction in uni but ended up going to war, against their will half the time. What about army veterans in their 30's and 40's being called back to war, taken away from families against their will... do they want to be there? Doubt it. It's prob. not too comfortable living in tanks and tented barracks in the middle of Iraq not knowing whether you'd be attacked or even car-bombed. I'd like to ask a few marines whether or not they'd leave if given the opportunity.

[QuattroMan]

1 - You have to be an Idiot if you agree with everything that your country does.

2 - Americans can talk $h*t about their government if they feel like it, that does not make them "Not Americans"

3 - Your tax money goes to the STUPID war that your president is conducting at this moment. Nice way to spend it heh. (And BTW my dad, my family and myself contribute to the US of America's f*ck*ng taxes wether we like it or not we have to do it... HELL at least give US the right to criticize the friggin system)

Quattro go and read your posts man, you are NOT on the right track my man, some of them don't even make sense.
just like you think your right,,,,hey im right on my own in ucp that is allllll cool, you guys will always see that I will back my country 100% and if you think im wrong then let it be that is me, don't call me names please, did I call names to any of you ?

[Matra et Alpine]

A whole bunch thats for sure :( What annoys me is that Clinton had the guy, but they didn't pursue because Bin Laden wasn't that much of a threat at the time. It all could have ended there but terrorism booned and on-came Iraq/Pakistan.
Just finished wathcing the last of 3 episodes on America neoconsevatism and the creation of BinLaden and AlQuaida (sp?) as a threat to unite the country and provide the politcal and religious groups with power.
Not in the Michael Moore mode, a well presetned and balanced 3 hours of insightful television.
I'll be interested to see if it gets the chance to be aired in the US>
If it does, I'd apprecaite the views of republicans.
It sure sounds as if most American's are being manipulated into beleiving what isn't there !!

[QuattroMan]

This is true, God Bless them, but most of these people DON'T support Bush's methods, and want this pointless war in Iraq to end. Condom-leeza Rice was questioned by a senator (From Connecticut I believe) and when asked about the mistake the Bush team made about WMD's in Iraq, she got all bitchy and tried to explain that they had reason to enter Iraq and it doesn't mean the WMD's werent there, they just might not have found them. The Bush team knows they messed up and just cant fess up to it. Sure, Saddam Hussein is gone, Iraq is better.. congratulations free Iraqi citizens, you deserve it. But was it worth the massive amount of money, prob. in the high billions or even trillions to go into war, lose 1,000+ lives, and put soldiers through hell for 2 years, personally, I think it's stupid. I know of 2 soldiers in my town who went to the military (marines) as a stepping-stone to college, in order to receive a free-ride or a large deduction in uni but ended up going to war, against their will half the time. What about army veterans in their 30's and 40's being called back to war, taken away from families against their will... do they want to be there? Doubt it. It's prob. not too comfortable living in tanks and tented barracks in the middle of Iraq not knowing whether you'd be attacked or even car-bombed. I'd like to ask a few marines whether or not they'd leave if given the opportunity.


yes your right but when you join the forces you loose that my friend, no one ever tolled them that it was going to be fun and games.

[Niko_Fx]

just like you think your right,,,,hey im right on my own in ucp that is allllll cool, you guys will always see that I will back my country 100% and if you think im wrong then let it be that is me, don't call me names please, did I call names to any of you ?



You can decide whether or not you qualify as stupid in my own terms... I was talking / referring in general to those who believe that the system is perfect.

[Matt]

thank you matt.....

What are you thanking me for? Calling you out as an idiot? You OBVIOUSLY have no idea what the word dissident means...

[Matt]

yes your right but when you join the forces you loose that my friend, no one ever tolled them that it was going to be fun and games.

They're also putting reservists on the front lines. Reservists were never meant to fulfill that function. That ISN'T what they signed up for. They are also refusing to let current enlisted men leave when their mandatory service time is up. They are also refusing to let older soldiers retire at the proper time. That's not a voluntary army.

[QuattroMan]

What are you thanking me for? Calling you out as an idiot? You OBVIOUSLY have no idea what the word dissident means...


thank you agian matt

[Matt]

thank you agian matt

Well, in that case, you're very welcome. I like doing good for the world.

[d-quik]

I will back my country 100%Look, you insecure little @#$*. Has it ever occured to you that one is able to love his/her own country but still be able to point out mistakes?

I will show you that it is possible right now
-jiang zeming was a shitty leader
-paul martin is a money-laundering little shit
-george bush is the worst president i have ever seen
at the same time I can say
-I love china
-I love canada
-I love half of America

IT ISN'T THAT HARD DAMMIT
did I call names to any of you ?yes, im sure I can find cases where you have called another member names
What are you thanking me for? Calling you out as an idiot? You OBVIOUSLY have no idea what the word dissident means...the sad part is that he didn't even look into the dictionary and TRY to look smart.

I am not going to say anything about the iraqi war, just too much stuff

oh and quattroman, learn to raise arguments properly

[Egg Nog]

just like you think your right,,,,hey im right on my own in ucp that is allllll cool, you guys will always see that I will back my country 100% and if you think im wrong then let it be that is me, don't call me names please, did I call names to any of you ?

First off all, I don't see why you try to make it sound like everyone is "hating America" - if you think that people love to bash America just because we've got issues with your personal simplistic arguments, you're completely wrong. I think most Americans are awesome.

I don't see how anyone who "backs their country 100%" can even manage to find a place in a political argument. This position puts you completely opposite of the entire point of a Democracy. And seeing as you massively loathe communism, I find it hard to even place where you're coming from.

You absoultey can not try to use the fact that d-quik is Chinese against him (and I don't mean anything to do with racism, I know you don't mean that) - his nationality does not detract from his ability to make arguments, which are the things that you should really be paying attention to. You'd probably get pretty pissed off (rightfully) if someone doubted your arguments just because you were American. If someone were to do that, they'd be an asshole.

[crisis]

Just finished wathcing the last of 3 episodes on America neoconsevatism and the creation of BinLaden and AlQuaida (sp?) as a threat to unite the country and provide the politcal and religious groups with power.
Not in the Michael Moore mode, a well presetned and balanced 3 hours of insightful television.
I'll be interested to see if it gets the chance to be aired in the US>
If it does, I'd apprecaite the views of republicans.
It sure sounds as if most American's are being manipulated into beleiving what isn't there !!
Im sure all republicans will dismiss it as liberal faggot propaganda. Some of those guys are the most paranoid, narrow minded boofheads. They consider any criticism of any deatil to be an affront to the US and all of its people. They are no less fundamentalist and unswerving in their views as the religious nuts they fear and hat so much. Ironic that.
Bush has just pledged to rid the world of tyranny and ensure it influences the owrlds govenrments to govern the good old US way. And the yanks wonder why the world constantly pokes its nose into US politics. Fvck help us.

[Matra et Alpine]

I've just watched Team America - World Police. How does it go with republicans ? There were a few times in the movie even I cringed at the extreme views projected !!
In between, pissing myself laughing off course :)

[my porsche]

I never knew Democrat's weren't considered Americans. If I told you I was republican how much would your view of me change? I don't want to criticize you but you and MP are hardcore Rep's that are always bashing liberal ways just because we think Bush is an imbecil. The only reason I go against America in some ways is that I have the right to, when I earn money working, where does 1/3 of it go... taxes. Do I have a choice no. However, I do have a choice in arguing my point on an internet forum and representing my dislike for some of our gov's systems.

i in no way think bush is the world's smartest man, HOWEVER he did what had to be done at that time better than gore/lieberman in 00, or kerry/lap puppet in 04, would have done it, and i dont hate liberals/democrats, i hate their political views, outside of politics, alot of them are cool people :D (i.e. my aunt, her boyfriend, my friend zach, and hollywood)

id be fine with it if joe leiberman joined the cabinet, ive heard bush is considering him as a replacement, hes one of the few democrats i like, zell miller is the other, im sure there are others, just not that i know of off the top of my head

and matt, i think quattro was trying to say decendant

and saying that quattro accusing libs of being anti-american is not new, liberals have been calling us un-american for a looong time now, according to "the gospel" of michale moore, heres a scenario, if we buy a christmas tree, "you sir, are un-american" because a while ago bush owned a lumber company, and those trees directly profit george w. bush, and his "evil" conpiratory cabinet of evil-doers

crisis, conservatices dismissing it as "faggot propaganda", now, hmmm, who does the band saying "faggot and propaganda" every few words, in a song aimed directly at w. and toppin gthe charts, endorse?? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats right, john kerry, how silly of me.

.................................................. .................................................. ...

matra is team america funny? i want to see it it looks hilarious, there are three types of people, dicks, pussy's and assholes haha they wanted michael moore to be filled with ham when they blew him up btw

[d-quik]

I don't see how anyone who "backs their country 100%" can even manage to find a place in a political argument. This position puts you completely opposite of the entire point of a Democracy. And seeing as you massively loathe communism, I find it hard to even place where you're coming from.I don't think he understands. Even I did a tad but im not afraid to admit it.
You absoultey can not try to use the fact that d-quik is Chinese against him (and I don't mean anything to do with racism, I know you don't mean that)again, his lack of ability to reason will force him to keep doing what he is doing

but no, I don't feel he is being racist. He detests the chinese government which is explanable but the reasons he gives for hating them is absurd^4.

oh, and I don't have super vision. its that those things on the right of the picture looked like turbos. newbie mistake turned good I guess...
heres a scenario, if we buy a christmas tree, "you sir, are un-american" because a while ago bush owned a lumber company, and those trees directly profit george w. bush, and his "evil" conpiratory cabinet of evil-doersYou either got this from MadTV or someone who watches that show told you about it.

[my porsche]

I don't think he understands. Even I did a tad but im not afraid to admit it.again, his lack of ability to reason will force him to keep doing what he is doing

but no, I don't feel he is being racist. He detests the chinese government which is explanable but the reasons he gives for hating them is absurd^4.

oh, and I don't have super vision. its that those things on the right of the picture looked like turbos. newbie mistake turned good I guess...You either got this from MadTV or someone who watches that show told you about it.

i got it from mad tv, i love that show, but the thing thats funny about it is that its exactly what michael moore is like

[Rockefella]

i got it from mad tv, i love that show, but the thing thats funny about it is that its exactly what michael moore is like
Michael Moore is not that bad. Sure he's a hardcore liberal but the man is not psychotic. He just very strongly stands against the Republican party.

[QuattroMan]

Look, you insecure little @#$*. Has it ever occured to you that one is able to love his/her own country but still be able to point out mistakes?

I will show you that it is possible right now
-jiang zeming was a shitty leader
-paul martin is a money-laundering little shit
-george bush is the worst president i have ever seen
at the same time I can say
-I love china
-I love canada
-I love half of America

IT ISN'T THAT HARD DAMMITyes, im sure I can find cases where you have called another member namesthe sad part is that he didn't even look into the dictionary and TRY to look smart.

I am not going to say anything about the iraqi war, just too much stuff

oh and quattroman, learn to raise arguments properly


I'm racist when I see pricks like you comes to United Stats of America lives here,works here lives the good life and have the ball to talk sh@t. I rest my case with you,I was right on the nose.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Last I checked, West Virigina is in the US.


lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....


I would highly recommend you go back to Canada, I'm not going to
be to mean to you, I'm not going to ask you to go back to China,
I would hate to see you work for $1 hour .... :D :p :)

[Matt]

I'm racist when I see pricks like you comes to United Stats of America lives here,works here lives the good life and have the ball to talk sh@t. I rest my case with you,I was right on the nose.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Last I checked, West Virigina is in the US.


lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....


I would highly recommend you go back to Canada, I'm not going to
be to mean to you, I'm not going to ask you to go back to China,
I would hate to see you work for $1 hour .... :D :p :)

Keep putting smilies on there as if anyone will think you're funny because of them. You're an ignorant, bigotted little twerp who obviously has no idea what you're talking about. From here on out, your arguments and your statements and your opinions are void.

[my porsche]

i think the picture is funny, its a guy's nuts about to tea bag himself, hahahahha i had a good laugh about that pic

[QuattroMan]

Keep putting smilies on there as if anyone will think you're funny because of them. You're an ignorant, bigotted little twerp who obviously has no idea what you're talking about. From here on out, your arguments and your statements and your opinions are void.


are you matt/d-quik???? get off my ass that post was for d-quik not for you your starting get on my nerves :D :D :) ;) :p
PS................ if I was the owner of this site I would take MOD
from you, worst mod I have ever see @ any car forum. :)

[QuattroMan]

wow, let me guess. anyone who is in the united states can not talk shit? YOU JUST CALLED ME A PRICK, holy crap. And guess what, you know who came "to the United Stats of America" and started talking shit? Probably your ancestors. But I don't see you bashing on them?I already said I wasn't. Either that our you don't know the words you are using.so do you what is your point?


HEY ! I like the names you got there.... I got one for you to...i think its cool
you should use it....readyyyy? D-PRICK,,,,D-QUCK!!- i can get more you
if you need it.....:D :) :p :) ;) by the way this fake smiles,,,,,

[d-quik]

heh, be my guest. d-quik is a stupid name anyways

[Deutscher Adler]

I think it was possibly a mistake but America doesnt mind in a sense. Yes China has a lot of imports to USA but they also don't mind bombing them. In the end the war will rage for resources and the Chinese are over abundant so there will be a fight between USA and China. China is also slow to accept the whole Americanism in their country. They dont want to be Americanized.

[megotmea7]

quattro, you have proven yourself more ignorant than i could ever imagine... no im not a democrat, yes im american.

ppl have every right to legaly come to this country, pay taxes, live, work, contribute to the economy, and complain about the conditions, just as much of a right as you or i. just because they dont have your holly grail like citizenship that somehow entitles you to "owning" "your" country. if you rented a house, and there was dogshit falling from the ceiling you'd have every right to complain wouldnt you? not your house but your living there, your paying rent(Taxes). please get rid of your cocky attitude, realize you CAN be wrong, OUR country CAN and HAS been wrong, and just because you calim to be a republican doesnt mean everything a similarly opposed democrat says is wrong, doesnt mean you have to agree with everything every other republican says, the 2 party system is idiotic, it leads to missinformed people that have a biased view of the world based on their little political "cool club". be a man, make your own decisions, come to your own independent conclusions and open your mind a little bit...

"talk less, listen more. you'll seem smarter" ;)

[QuattroMan]

heh, be my guest. d-quik is a stupid name anyways


Thank you it was fun I will not carry any grudges,you have your opinions and I have mine.....but you need to stop using bad words it doesn't matter how wrong you feel the other person is....any ways seeee yyyyaaa...

[QuattroMan]

quattro, you have proven yourself more ignorant than i could ever imagine... no im not a democrat, yes im american.

ppl have every right to legaly come to this country, pay taxes, live, work, contribute to the economy, and complain about the conditions, just as much of a right as you or i. just because they dont have your holly grail like citizenship that somehow entitles you to "owning" "your" country. if you rented a house, and there was dogshit falling from the ceiling you'd have every right to complain wouldnt you? not your house but your living there, your paying rent(Taxes). please get rid of your cocky attitude, realize you CAN be wrong, OUR country CAN and HAS been wrong, and just because you calim to be a republican doesnt mean everything a similarly opposed democrat says is wrong, doesnt mean you have to agree with everything every other republican says, the 2 party system is idiotic, it leads to missinformed people that have a biased view of the world based on their little political "cool club". be a man, make your own decisions, come to your own independent conclusions and open your mind a little bit...

"talk less, listen more. you'll seem smarter" ;)
Moreno Valley, CA. nice about 1 1/2 drive any ways some of the things I wrote it was solely to annoy see how far I get this guys go but im not going to do that again all I did is get this guys get mad at me...

[Egg Nog]

and saying that quattro accusing libs of being anti-american is not new, liberals have been calling us un-american for a looong time now, according to "the gospel" of michale moore, heres a scenario, if we buy a christmas tree, "you sir, are un-american" because a while ago bush owned a lumber company, and those trees directly profit george w. bush, and his "evil" conpiratory cabinet of evil-doers

crisis, conservatices dismissing it as "faggot propaganda", now, hmmm, who does the band saying "faggot and propaganda" every few words, in a song aimed directly at w. and toppin gthe charts, endorse?? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats right, john kerry, how silly of me.


I've heard you talk before defending Republicans as a whole after tiny portions of negative right-wing have been critisized, saying that they, of course, do not represent the whole picture at all. This of course is a logical argument, and is true. The problem comes when you start holding obvious double standards like this.

Making up some lame story that you think a blind uninsightful left-winger might say is hardly a way to make an argument. As I said before to Quattro man, political arguments can't even really be made on a lower-level scale of intelligence, because at that point, a lot of people don't really get it. I know a few 8 and 9 year old kids who like to bash Bush, but they haven't got the foggiest idea what he's done. They are politically irrelevent.

So, all blunders and political figures aside, what do you have against the left-wing ideals? I don't want to hear any mentions of "some people", "Micheal Moore", "John Kerry", "Many Libs", etc. Get right down to the philosophical level and tell me what is wrong with our ideals, why right-wing ones are better, etc, because that's what it is really all about (and relevant on a global scale as well).

The real caring, supportive, and progressively-thinking liberals all over the world are just as sick of being associated with John Kerry and Micheal Moore (etc) than Republicans are with the fact that Bush can't speak. I really do think it's time to scrape all the mud (from mud-slinging) off of the tablet and look at what the general public are really after.

Please respond to the question in paragraph 3 (anyone) - this is a very key question.

[Matt]

are you matt/d-quik???? get off my ass that post was for d-quik not for you your starting get on my nerves :D :D :) ;) :p
PS................ if I was the owner of this site I would take MOD
from you, worst mod I have ever see @ any car forum. :)

Worst example of a human being, let alone American, that I have ever seen.

[QuattroMan]

Worst example of a human being, let alone American, that I have ever seen.


matt stop it all ready give it up ok sorry for the last post I did that to get you mad,,,,,,chill dude !!! all the name calling you did to me I for got about it long time ago

[d-quik]

I think it was possibly a mistake but America doesnt mind in a sense. Yes China has a lot of imports to USA but they also don't mind bombing them. In the end the war will rage for resources and the Chinese are over abundant so there will be a fight between USA and China. China is also slow to accept the whole Americanism in their country. They dont want to be Americanized.So bombing their embassy is justified?

[Deutscher Adler]

So bombing their embassy is justified?


There is a saying that I hear all the time it is:

ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR.


WAR is just something that pushes men to their limits and certain things that would normally not be justified happen because it fits the situation. Maybe there was no point in bombing the embassy or maybe some strategic point was the embassy for whatever X reason might be. Possibly it can boil down to a simple animosity (spelling??) towards the Chinese by the pilot or his copilot incharge of the bombing.

[QuattroMan]

There is a saying that I hear all the time it is:

ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR.


WAR is just something that pushes men to their limits and certain things that would normally not be justified happen because it fits the situation. Maybe there was no point in bombing the embassy or maybe some strategic point was the embassy for whatever X reason might be. Possibly it can boil down to a simple animosity (spelling??) towards the Chinese by the pilot or his copilot incharge of the bombing.


verweiss was die riegerung mit uns macht. neh? alles klar man, scheiss auf die Chinese.

[Deutscher Adler]

verweiss was die riegerung mit uns macht. neh? alles klar man, scheiss auf die Chinese.



Tja, so ist das leben alter aber wir werden bestimmt nie wissen.

[QuattroMan]

Tja, so ist das leben alter aber wir werden bestimmt nie wissen.


LOL!!! :D

[Matt]

Why do you two have the same IP?

[QuattroMan]

Why do you two have the same IP?

we work for the same company....

[Rockefella]

Why do you two have the same IP?
Owned, by Matt ©.

[my porsche]

has anyone noticed ive for the most part avoided entering the personal side of this argument? i dug myslef a giant ass hole around election time, i learned, im so proud

[Matt]

we work for the same company....


Who provides the internet access for your company?

[Rockefella]

has anyone noticed ive for the most part avoided entering the personal side of this argument? i dug myslef a giant ass hole around election time, i learned, im so proud
Here's a lollipop. :) (lollipop pic placed here, just pretend it's actually on your screen.) :p

[d-quik]

scheiss auf die Chinese.translates to: crap on the chinese

I think this is enough to incur a one-day ban now.
There is a saying that I hear all the time it is:

ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR.


WAR is just something that pushes men to their limits and certain things that would normally not be justified happen because it fits the situation. Maybe there was no point in bombing the embassy or maybe some strategic point was the embassy for whatever X reason might be. Possibly it can boil down to a simple animosity (spelling??) towards the Chinese by the pilot or his copilot incharge of the bombing.1. USA and the PRC were not at war.
2. What was the "situation" that it fitted into?
3. If it was animosity, then it would not be justified at all.
4. All the things you said do not explain why you voted there was "nothing wrong with it"

[my porsche]

translates to: crap on the chinese

I think this is enough to incur a one-day ban now.1. USA and the PRC were not at war.
2. What was the "situation" that it fitted into?
3. If it was animosity, then it would not be justified at all.
4. All the things you said do not explain why you voted there was "nothing wrong with it"

no offense, but do you have a personal vendetta out for quattro? did you translate the rest of that? :D

[my porsche]

Tja, so ist das leben alter aber wir werden bestimmt nie wissen.

this says something about not trusting someone

[Rockefella]

no offense, but do you have a personal vendetta out for quattro? did you translate the rest of that? :D
Well, Quatt. called Chinese people Communists and what not, that they can't be trusted and were all arses or something and affiliated that w/ D-Quik since he lived in China for 9 years or so. If someone came up to you and called you a drunk, irish-communist or what not, you'd probably be offended too.

[QuattroMan]

Who provides the internet access for your company?
i dont know but i can find out for you on manday...

[d-quik]

Well, Quatt. called Chinese people Communists and what not, that they can't be trusted and were all arses or something and affiliated that w/ D-Quik since he lived in China for 9 years or so. If someone came up to you and called you a drunk, irish-communist or what not, you'd probably be offended too.About the communist and "they can't be trusted" parts, I find it not offensive because of it's sheer stupidity. Working for a buck an hour in china? Unoffensive as well because my parents used to make about 300 USD a month working for the chinese embassy and we did fine. so thats just more stupidty. Anyways, all the other things he said aren't offensive at all simply because its just so bloody lame. But "shit on the chinese" is bloody racist and he knows it. That just crossed the line. Honestly I don't care if this is politically incorrect but if he said that to me in my face, I would have decked him along with the other. Any right-minded chinese person would have.

[QuattroMan]

translates to: crap on the chinese

I think this is enough to incur a one-day ban now.1. USA and the PRC were not at war.
2. What was the "situation" that it fitted into?
3. If it was animosity, then it would not be justified at all.
4. All the things you said do not explain why you voted there was "nothing wrong with it"
we are just saying that Chinese government got to hell and die, noting
about the people

[d-quik]

we are just saying that Chinese government got to hell and die, noting
about the peoplescheise (shit) auf (on) die (the) chinese. im not stupid.

here translate this: ni shi yi ge ben dan:)

[QuattroMan]

About the communist and "they can't be trusted" parts, I find it not offensive because of it's sheer stupidity. Working for a buck an hour in china? Unoffensive as well because my parents used to make about 300 USD a month working for the chinese embassy and we did fine. so thats just more stupidty. Anyways, all the other things he said aren't offensive at all simply because its just so bloody lame. But "shit on the chinese" is bloody racist and he knows it. That just crossed the line. Honestly I don't care if this is politically incorrect but if he said that to me in my face, I would have decked him along with the other. Any right-minded chinese person would have.
i never once said any thing about the people d-quik the govrnment is
what i hate my friend the government

[QuattroMan]

scheise (shit) auf (on) die (the) chinese. im not stupid.

here translate this: ni shi yi ge ben dan:)
i for got the government part, i know German but not that much...

[Matt]

i never once said any thing about the people d-quik the govrnment is
what i hate my friend the government

Then why impress your hatred for the government upon d-quik himself? Do you want to be held personally responsible for the things your government does?

[my porsche]

Well, Quatt. called Chinese people Communists and what not, that they can't be trusted and were all arses or something and affiliated that w/ D-Quik since he lived in China for 9 years or so. If someone came up to you and called you a drunk, irish-communist or what not, you'd probably be offended too.

yeah i would! cuz im also northern irish unfortunatley, but i dont think anyone would say that about a 13 year old kid, would they?

[my porsche]

Here's a lollipop. :) (lollipop pic placed here, just pretend it's actually on your screen.) :p

thanks!! it was yummy

[QuattroMan]

Then why impress your hatred for the government upon d-quik himself? Do you want to be held personally responsible for the things your government does?

I did that because he PM me with a stupid attitude with me, so I decided to get him mad, but I for got that we have other readers,,,,I dont well when someone starts to go off on me, hey if I'm wrong just say it nicely I'm all for that,but if I'm called names ill say things just to get them mad, I know it sounds stupid but sure beets me to say bad words, you will never see me use bad word 1st...never.....

[Matt]

I did that because he PM me with a stupid attitude with me, so I decided to get him mad, but I for got that we have other readers,,,,I dont well when someone starts to go off on me, hey if I'm wrong just say it nicely I'm all for that,but if I'm called names ill say things just to get them mad, I know it sounds stupid but sure beets me to say bad words, you will never see me use bad word 1st...never.....


You started out in this thread with attitude.

[d-quik]

I did that because he PM me with a stupid attitude with me, so I decided to get him madYes like matty stated, I did that was AFTER you did it yourself you hypocrite.

[Egg Nog]

It's so annoying when nobody responds to anything you post, isn't it?

Maybe I should just type less...

[QuattroMan]

It's so annoying when nobody responds to anything you post, isn't it?

Maybe I should just type less...

really i did not no that but if that is how this site is ran did then let be...

[Egg Nog]

really i did not no that but if that is how this site is ran did then let be...

What?

[crisis]

crisis, conservatices dismissing it as "faggot propaganda", now, hmmm, who does the band saying "faggot and propaganda" every few words, in a song aimed directly at w. and toppin gthe charts, endorse?? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats right, john kerry, how silly of me.

This may need to be exlplained a little more. I am a bit thick.

[Miss Quattro]

Hmmm.. I didn't really have the patience to sit and read everything written -- but I wanted you all to know (for the most part) you are ALL right. There is no real answer to questions of moral or ethics because it's subjective to too many variables. I think this discussion is very good. FYI: there are only FIVE superpowers in the world and yes China is one of them.

[Miss Quattro]

Oh, and another thing... please don't take things said personally -- these are opinions. You may not agree with them, but in America we have the right to think, speak on what we feel. We should honor each other's right. We are so free here sometimes we forget how blessed we are to even have the freedom to converse on any topic we want. HOWEVER: when doing so, can we refrain from being just rude and mean? We don't need to be name calling and using words that YOU KNOW may be offensive to the next person (i.e. "Faggot" - "you are racist"). Of course, at your discretion, but be considerate. It would help us all listen a little better. :)

By the way. I'm Chinese.

[Miss Quattro]

Oh.. and Embassie is spelled "EMBASSY".

[Matt]

Do you also work at the same company as QUATTRO MAN?

[crisis]

Oh, and another thing... please don't take things said personally -- these are opinions. You may not agree with them, but in America we have the right to think, speak on what we feel. We should honor each other's right. We are so free here sometimes we forget how blessed we are to even have the freedom to converse on any topic we want. HOWEVER: when doing so, can we refrain from being just rude and mean? We don't need to be name calling and using words that YOU KNOW may be offensive to the next person (i.e. "Faggot" - "you are racist"). Of course, at your discretion, but be considerate. It would help us all listen a little better. :)

By the way. I'm Chinese.
You dont say much but when you do you put it very well. It is always amusing to see Americans post rhetoric about their freedom and rights and in the next sentence turn around and dismiss others views who are opposed to theirs. Everyone has the right to their opinion but if they make it heard everyone else has the right to question it and ask for a logical explaination. It is not about whether you can convince the other party to change their mind, it is about whether you can put you case across logically.

[Matra et Alpine]

Oh, and another thing... please don't take things said personally -- these are opinions. You may not agree with them, but in America we have the right to think, speak on what we feel. We should honor each other's right. We are so free here sometimes we forget how blessed we are to even have the freedom to converse on any topic we want.
Not any more ?
Go to your local bar and discuss the positive aspects of Islamic fundamentalism and the right to follow the Quoran LITERALLY and to punish transgressors and see how quickly you find yourself in the wodnerful surroundings of Guantanamo (sp?).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm the latest released Britons held illegally !!
The 5 released last year were also cleared in British courts of any illegal activity.
Freedom ? A very "fluid" term these days :(

( having lit blue touch paper, MetA now retires !! )

[Miss Quattro]

Not any more ?
Go to your local bar and discuss the positive aspects of Islamic fundamentalism and the right to follow the Quoran LITERALLY and to punish transgressors and see how quickly you find yourself in the wodnerful surroundings of Guantanamo (sp?).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm the latest released Britons held illegally !!
The 5 released last year were also cleared in British courts of any illegal activity.
Freedom ? A very "fluid" term these days :(

( having lit blue touch paper, MetA now retires !! )

What do you wish to accomplish by posting this?

[Miss Quattro]

You dont say much but when you do you put it very well. It is always amusing to see Americans post rhetoric about their freedom and rights and in the next sentence turn around and dismiss others views who are opposed to theirs. Everyone has the right to their opinion but if they make it heard everyone else has the right to question it and ask for a logical explaination. It is not about whether you can convince the other party to change their mind, it is about whether you can put you case across logically.


If you interpreted my note as "dismissing others views who are opposed to theirs" then I apologize for the miscommunication. I did indeed say that we are extremely free to say and feel however we want. That includes how we feel about what other's opinions are (whether we agree or disagree) BUT when opposing we should be open minded and kind.... how logical will the other person be if you put them on defense? (by name calling, being narrow-minded ourselves and such) I imagine no one will hear anyone else and this will defeat the purpose of our entire conversation.

[Miss Quattro]

Not any more ?
Go to your local bar and discuss the positive aspects of Islamic fundamentalism and the right to follow the Quoran LITERALLY and to punish transgressors and see how quickly you find yourself in the wodnerful surroundings of Guantanamo (sp?).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm the latest released Britons held illegally !!
The 5 released last year were also cleared in British courts of any illegal activity.
Freedom ? A very "fluid" term these days :(

( having lit blue touch paper, MetA now retires !! )


Oh, ok, I think I get it. You suggest that we are no longer free to speak our mind because of cases such as the one you referred to. Hmmmm. I think this only solidifies my case on being kind and open-minded when speaking. Speak your mind with consideration to others. We cannot change others, only ourselves --- so if we change how we address something, I think it could make a world of difference. HOWEVER, if the other party is close minded and IS that person who doesn't believe in healthy conversation for learning purposes and expression purposes in a kind manner.. well then, there's not a lot you can do with them is there?

Thank you for the compliment though. I majored in Political Science with a minor in Communication. :D I guess I know a little bit.... just a little bit.

[Matra et Alpine]

Oh, ok, I think I get it. You suggest that we are no longer free to speak our mind because of cases such as the one you referred to. Hmmmm. I think this only solidifies my case on being kind and open-minded when speaking. Speak your mind with consideration to others. We cannot change others, only ourselves --- so if we change how we address something, I think it could make a world of difference. HOWEVER, if the other party is close minded and IS that person who doesn't believe in healthy conversation for learning purposes and expression purposes in a kind manner.. well then, there's not a lot you can do with them is there?
Except so far over a 1/3rd of theose held illegally at Guantanemo have been released.
No sorry, no right to speak their case in a free court. nothing.
THEIR rights to "free speech" were trampled by the neo-conservatism taking control in the US :(
I already mentioned in another thread the BBC 3-part program on what's going on. it was frightening to have cases cited where because the US ( and indirectly UK ) governments were paying $100 per head of a "al quaeda" terrorist then anyone who evenly remotely LOOKED "islamic" was being handed over by warlords. AND we knew it.
When we talk about "freedom" it is important that we apply the same rules to others as ourselves. Otherwise, it's NOT freedom, it's bullying and we're just lucky to be the bigger guys :(

Thank you for the compliment though. I majored in Political Science with a minor in Communication. :D I guess I know a little bit.... just a little bit.
Not sure there was one, but always glad if they're in there !
Perhaps if you'd covered the outflow of the Nuremberg trials and the impact it had on western and specifically German vies then it woudl shine soem light on the mistakes we make here. Tthe American judge who was on the tribunal for the top German judiciary foudn them guilty IN SPITE OF PRESSSURES from US government to get innocence. Sadly there doens't seem to be that dtrong voice of the US judiciary able to point out the errors of the current international actions.
As a student of political science, you will more appreciate the need for international law and that international actions MUST conform to those agreed covenants. Like the Geneva convention - not in Guantanamo - or the International courts whose agreed principles were ridden rough-shod in the desire to take out a percevied enemy. One wihch the BBC program highlighted was of our own making !!
Going back to the US judge at Nuremberg, he realised that it was important at all times to act ACCORDING TO LAW and not according to national or personal motives.
It's scary that we are now a part of an atrocity that our fathers fought to rid the world of :(

[Miss Quattro]

Except so far over a 1/3rd of theose held illegally at Guantanemo have been released.
No sorry, no right to speak their case in a free court. nothing.
THEIR rights to "free speech" were trampled by the neo-conservatism taking control in the US :(
I already mentioned in another thread the BBC 3-part program on what's going on. it was frightening to have cases cited where because the US ( and indirectly UK ) governments were paying $100 per head of a "al quaeda" terrorist then anyone who evenly remotely LOOKED "islamic" was being handed over by warlords. AND we knew it.
When we talk about "freedom" it is important that we apply the same rules to others as ourselves. Otherwise, it's NOT freedom, it's bullying and we're just lucky to be the bigger guys :(

Not sure there was one, but always glad if they're in there !
Perhaps if you'd covered the outflow of the Nuremberg trials and the impact it had on western and specifically German vies then it woudl shine soem light on the mistakes we make here. Tthe American judge who was on the tribunal for the top German judiciary foudn them guilty IN SPITE OF PRESSSURES from US government to get innocence. Sadly there doens't seem to be that dtrong voice of the US judiciary able to point out the errors of the current international actions.
As a student of political science, you will more appreciate the need for international law and that international actions MUST conform to those agreed covenants. Like the Geneva convention - not in Guantanamo - or the International courts whose agreed principles were ridden rough-shod in the desire to take out a percevied enemy. One wihch the BBC program highlighted was of our own making !!
Going back to the US judge at Nuremberg, he realised that it was important at all times to act ACCORDING TO LAW and not according to national or personal motives.
It's scary that we are now a part of an atrocity that our fathers fought to rid the world of :(


Hmmm... The compliment was that I speak well (even if what I said is disagreed with (it was from Crisis not you Matra)) 2) I was talking about the our rights as Americans and the USA. If we talk International then it's a whole other ball game.

International Law was my favorite class. Unfortunately - WHO is going to mandate the International Laws? The United Nations?

[Miss Quattro]

Do you also work at the same company as QUATTRO MAN?


Does it matter Matt?

[Matt]

It's part of my job to question why multiple members have the same IP Address.

[Miss Quattro]

and tell me again why it matters?

[Miss Quattro]

your avatar is hot though.... so you can't be half bad. :)

[spi-ti-tout]

I was talking about the our rights as Americans and the USA. If we talk International then it's a whole other ball game.
Thats the WHOLE fact. The only thing we're taking about is the freedom of American speech since you brought it up. As Matra already showed, being American or not doesn't really matter. It depends on WHAT you're talking about. Certain issues, it seems, are being banned from being talked about in the U.S., regardless of nationality. How can you say now that Americans have so much freedom?

[spi-ti-tout]

It's part of my job to question why multiple members have the same IP Address.
Matt, right from the first time Miss. Quattro ever joined UCP, QUATTROMAN made a thread about it. Go and read it.

[Miss Quattro]

Thats the WHOLE fact. The only thing we're taking about is the freedom of American speech since you brought it up. As Matra already showed, being American or not doesn't really matter. It depends on WHAT you're talking about. Certain issues, it seems, are being banned from being talked about in the U.S., regardless of nationality. How can you say now that Americans have so much freedom?

What are YOU talking about?

2) Yes it matters if we're American. We belong to a set of rules. If we are something else, we belong to another set of rules. So... the game is then played differently. So I am confused to what you want to say here Spi-ti-tout, but I'd like to know. Thank you.

3) I say we have freedom because we do. More so than ANYONE else in this world.

4) International laws include MANY areas: international humanitarian law, geneva conventions, rules of engagement, even international law in relation to the seas -- so pick ONE thing to discuss. In matters of the world and politics, most general statements don't work. Too many outside factors.

Does this help?

[Matra et Alpine]

International Law was my favorite class. Unfortunately - WHO is going to mandate the International Laws? The United Nations?
erm, well you should know it's the International Court of Law !!!!
Ah wait, you studied in an American college. Bet it's Bush's new way to get everyone to agree with him -- change the education system to reflect HIS truth. Someone did this quite successfully in the 30s ( well for a while anyway !! )

See http://www.icc-cpi.int/home.html&l=en

Sadly some states have delcared they will NOT be held responsible by this court - eg America :(

Having just watched Team America - World Police I'm all humoured out on this sad situation.

[Miss Quattro]

erm, well you should know it's the International Court of Law !!!!
Ah wait, you studied in an American college. Bet it's Bush's new way to get everyone to agree with him -- change the education system to reflect HIS truth. Someone did this quite successfully in the 30s ( well for a while anyway !! )

See http://www.icc-cpi.int/home.html&l=en

Sadly some states have delcared they will NOT be held responsible by this court - eg America :(

Having just watched Team America - World Police I'm all humoured out on this sad situation.

HAHAHAAA.... cute comment. I did indeed attend a university in the United States. But it was a highly liberal and hippie school.... so..... ???? anyway, either which way, I never said what party I associated with nor where I stand politically on really anything.

2) My question to you Matra is this: WHO is the International Court of Law? Are they truly an exisiting power with an exisiting government with a military?

[Matra et Alpine]

What are YOU talking about?
Suggest you read the actiosn being taken under the asupisces of the Homeland Security.
The Patriot Act is a powerful government tool and "terrorist cells" claimed to be found and broken up by the act - see http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/ - were recently shown to be nothing.
The culture of fear propogated by the neo-conservatists in the US has handed YOUR freedom over to the authorities. But by dressing it up in the flag and Bush claiming America is the free nation of the world, most folks are blind to it or chose NOT to see it ( just as many Germans did in the 30s - not that I expect it to go as far as the Nazi's did )


Bush is using the homeland security in the same way Reagan used the Star Wars concept. A tool to show the public the government is doing something
'worthwhile' and to concetrate on the risk, the danger, the enemy rather than looking at your neighbour and seeing he/she is living in poverty, has lost the right to free speech and is unable to get health care, senior citizen care or a job !!

[Matra et Alpine]

2) My question to you Matra is this: WHO is the International Court of Law? Are they truly an exisiting power with an exisiting government with a military?
You're confusing the enforcement and the judiciary !
Without being too blunt, I doubt you did more than PS.101 :)

Since Greek times, the law has been seperate from the enforcement and WELL seperated from government and military. To mix them up as I think Bush has is to open the dangers that means it might be a good thing you have the right to bear arms against your government. because they're going to be the judges, the police and the military and all with one voice. Not since Germany in the 30s has that happened in a "civilised" country.

Did you bother to follow the link I gave for the International Criminal Court ? If you had all the answerwe woudl have been theere. HOW were you able to study Political Science and not have covered the international institutions of the world and how they came about and their roles in a free democratic union of world states ?

[spi-ti-tout]

What are YOU talking about?
Read on, Ma'am.


2) Yes it matters if we're American. We belong to a set of rules. If we are something else, we belong to another set of rules. So... the game is then played differently. So I am confused to what you want to say here Spi-ti-tout, but I'd like to know. Thank you.
THIS I fully agree with. I never made any kind of quote about it.


3) I say we have freedom because we do. More so than ANYONE else in this world.
THIS is what I'm trying to oppose, to bring it out into clear waters for you. Did it ever occur to you that you might be...a little overlooking the current situation?
I'm taking the quote straight from Matra=
"Go to your local bar and discuss the positive aspects of Islamic fundamentalism and the right to follow the Quoran LITERALLY and to punish transgressors and see how quickly you find yourself in the wodnerful surroundings of Guantanamo (sp?)."
=THIS is what I'm trying to say. You are over looking the fact that in Bush's Political Arena there is NO place to talk about what he doesn't want you to talk about, REGARDLESS of you being an American. Americans DO NOT have the most freedom of speech. Ever since Bush entered office, the word "freedom" has been accurately changed to whats in his dictionary. The people who DO have the most freedom of speech are the people the U.S. doesn't care about. Take U.A.E, the country I live in, for an example. Over here, when we go to the bar, and we start talking about Islamic or Christian Fundamentalism , nothing happens. No Guantanamo, no anything. And forget about the U.A.E, there are about 100 more countries that have the real freedom of speech, mainly war-torn, because in Bush's dictionary, they've already been "freed".


4) International laws include MANY areas: international humanitarian law, geneva conventions, rules of engagement, even international law in relation to the seas -- so pick ONE thing to discuss. In matters of the world and politics, most general statements don't work. Too many outside factors.
I AM Picking ONE thing to discuss. I've already explained it above. General statements don't work because unfortunately they're real meaning have already been changed by so-called leaders of 'peace'.(THIS, I agree, was another thing I was dicussing)

(Just as a side note: If there anyone I learnt politics from, it's my Grandfather. He helped the Sheikh of Zanzibar run away from bad people and risked his own life. But thats a whole other story in itself :) )

[Miss Quattro]

[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]You're confusing the enforcement and the judiciary !
Without being too blunt, I doubt you did more than PS.101 :)

Ouch. I've never said anything mean to you Matra - a smiley face does not make that statement ok. 2) you never answered my questions, if you don't know. It's ok.

[Miss Quattro]

spi-ti-tout. Thank you for your opinion. Keep on.

matra. aren't you Canadian?

[spi-ti-tout]

spi-ti-tout. Thank you for your opinion. Keep on
What happened? :confused:

[Miss Quattro]

you told me what you thought. and I liked how you did it, that's all. :)

[spi-ti-tout]

you told me what you thought. and I liked how you did it, that's all. :)
Aren't you going to oppose me? ;)

Hey that means I've won :D

[Coventrysucks]

Don't have any thing against France or Germany or Australias, how can I hate civilized countries? matt what are you trying to say,"Last I checked, West Virginia is in the US" lets see d-quik lived in China for 9 years he is probably a Chinese national, he gets mad when some one talks negative about his country, or his just Communist @ss....

Calling China "uncivilised" is just plain ignorant.

Calling someone else a "communist" is just uncalled for.


I'm racist when I see pricks like you comes to United Stats of America lives here,works here lives the good life and have the ball to talk sh@t. I rest my case with you,I was right on the nose.

I would highly recommend you go back to Canada, I'm not going to
be to mean to you, I'm not going to ask you to go back to China,
I would hate to see you work for $1 hour .... :D :p :)

This is just absolutely disgraceful.


HEY ! I like the names you got there.... I got one for you to...i think its cool
you should use it....readyyyy? D-PRICK,,,,D-QUCK!!- i can get more you
if you need it.....:D :) :p :) ;) by the way this fake smiles,,,,,

You never call people names huh?

Quite frankly I'm surprised that you didn't get banned for this childish and purile bout of insult, slander and etc.

I can honestly say now that I would not consider it a problem if I never saw or heard from you again. Your attitude is simply disgusting.

[Miss Quattro]

Aren't you going to oppose me? ;)

Hey that means I've won :D

Oh, did you want me to oppose you? Ok. Give me a bit of time. I am trying to do this and work at the same time. ;) HAHAHHAA! No one has won! We both win.

[Matra et Alpine]

You're confusing the enforcement and the judiciary !
Without being too blunt, I doubt you did more than PS.101 :)

Ouch. I've never said anything mean to you Matra - a smiley face does not make that statement ok. 2) you never answered my questions, if you don't know. It's ok.
I did, the original answer gave you their title and gave you a link to their web site which gives you their mission statement and their legal creation in 1998 as agreemetn of 120 nation signatories.
I can't help if you didn't look.
And I stand by what I said, I'm not convinced you've studied Political Science beyond elementary level. I'm not being mean. Consider it the equivalent of the Egg-Nog challenge :) You show a huge gap in international bodies which any PS course would cover.
You are trying to put up points and don't have the knowledge and seem to lack basic investigation skills that wodl be expected of anyone who has studied PS to high school or college level.

oh and I loved the "are you canadian" comment.
There are more countries in the world than the ones that border the USA :)

Scottish and proud of it !! It's the little bit at the top of britain - it's the islands off the West coeast of Europe - it's the BIG lump of land you hit if you fly east from USA :)

[spi-ti-tout]

Oh, did you want me to oppose you? Ok. Give me a bit of time. I am trying to do this and work at the same time. ;) HAHAHHAA! No one has won! We both win.
Well, I'm here, you're here, and we're here to share views. I'd like to see the views that you have, after I contributed. My meaning of oppose is share :)(But NOT IN ALL CASES!!!!)
Hope you finish that work :)

[Miss Quattro]

I did, the original answer gave you their title and gave you a link to their web site which gives you their mission statement and their legal creation in 1998 as agreemetn of 120 nation signatories.
I can't help if you didn't look.
And I stand by what I said, I'm not convinced you've studied Political Science beyond elementary level. I'm not being mean. Consider it the equivalent of the Egg-Nog challenge :) You show a huge gap in international bodies which any PS course would cover.
You are trying to put up points and don't have the knowledge and seem to lack basic investigation skills that wodl be expected of anyone who has studied PS to high school or college level.

oh and I loved the "are you canadian" comment.
There are more countries in the world than the ones that border the USA :)

Scottish and proud of it !! It's the little bit at the top of britain - it's the
islands off the West coeast of Europe - it's the BIG lump of land you hit if you fly east from USA :)


Thank you for talking to me like I'm dumb. I bet that gets you lots of girls. oohh. no. I'm sorry, that was rude. Maybe you are just this way. I just need to get to know your humor and personality a little better. But off the first hand? Not the greatest of impressions. Still. I appreciate it if you are trying to educate me or open my mind or something positive and I'm sorry that I am interpreting it negatively... but --- that would be me reacting to your tone. So it must be you. hmmm. help?

The "are you canadian" comment was just a QUESTION, not a comment. I wanted to know where you are from. 2) I have no access to outside links or attachments from this computer so I couldn't go look at your link. 3) I don't appreciate the comments regarding my education and the level of political science I've had. I had to work very hard to get through school and I did it by myself in 4 years while working 3 jobs and studying - writing - doing all I needed to pass and graduate. I think it's not YOUR position to belittle my efforts based on a lazy two paragraph comment I made on a thread in a car page website.

[Matra et Alpine]

Thank you for talking to me like I'm dumb. I bet that gets you lots of girls.
I was doing my best to match the level of your earlier posts to make some sense in the debate

[Miss Quattro]

[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]I was doing my best to match the level of your earlier posts to make some sense in the debate[/QUOTE

What level was that? Pray tell. Regardless of how juvenile you feel my comments are - I never stooped to the level you did in the last few responses you have had to me - Matra.. besides the getting girls comment - did I ever make you feel stupid or make you feel like your opinions were unimportant or invaluable?

[Matt]

How do you have access to no external links or attachments from the computer you are on, yet are able to visit an automotive website? Is UCP a special site that your network administrator lets through? That makes no sense.

Is your name Eva?

[my porsche]

[QUOTE=d-quik]QUOTE]

what does your sig mean?

[Matra et Alpine]

[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]I was doing my best to match the level of your earlier posts to make some sense in the debate[/QUOTE

What level was that? Pray tell. Regardless of how juvenile you feel my comments are - I never stooped to the level you did in the last few responses you have had to me - Matra.. besides the getting girls comment - did I ever make you feel stupid or make you feel like your opinions were unimportant or invaluable?
You confuse juvenile with unintelligent perhaps.
You asked a question, I gave an answer and a link.
You asked the question again.
I pointed out that anyone who purports to have studied POlitical Science and DOESN"T know about the International Courts didn't make sense. I asked you in an indirect way to confirm what you studied.
You ignored them and pontificatetd nonsenes.
I can't help it that you posted lots of words and facts that were unconnected and not carrying a cohesive thought and made comment to you to TRY to get you to respond more coherently.
If you think the long post of nonsenes DID make sense, why not respond to the question raised against it rather than wooly words tryign to evade the points raised ?
I don't think you want debate and that's OK, but if one posts views on a forum you have to expect them to be questioned and to justify them. Don't you ?

[crisis]

If you interpreted my note as "dismissing others views who are opposed to theirs" then I apologize for the miscommunication. I did indeed say that we are extremely free to say and feel however we want. That includes how we feel about what other's opinions are (whether we agree or disagree) BUT when opposing we should be open minded and kind.... how logical will the other person be if you put them on defense? (by name calling, being narrow-minded ourselves and such) I imagine no one will hear anyone else and this will defeat the purpose of our entire conversation.
I was not referring to you as one of those people in question.

[crisis]

3) I say we have freedom because we do. More so than ANYONE else in this world.


Ever lived in Australia. Freedom comes in many forms. We are free to walk around and not fear the fact that a large percentage of our population owns, or can get their hands on semiautomatic firearms. Americans are free to own them.

[crisis]

Not any more ?
Go to your local bar and discuss the positive aspects of Islamic fundamentalism and the right to follow the Quoran LITERALLY and to punish transgressors and see how quickly you find yourself in the wodnerful surroundings of Guantanamo (sp?).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm the latest released Britons held illegally !!
The 5 released last year were also cleared in British courts of any illegal activity.
Freedom ? A very "fluid" term these days :(

( having lit blue touch paper, MetA now retires !! )
Go into a bar in Iran (oops alchohol is illegal even if you are not Muslim), ok a a tea room and talk about Christianity. I dont propose theUS is squeaky clean. Its funny though how all of the US's transgressions are disected in such a way to prove they are, in fact the centre of all thats bad in the world. Human rights in many other countries are appaling. You can point to evidence of certain thing in the US but other countries get off because its their "culture" or "tradition" or they have always done it that way. We have Muslim prayer rooms in our universities in Australia. We have multicultural channels on TV. We have laws against racial vilification and religious persecution. We have racists too but not institutionalised racism. The US and in part the West is scrutinised for any transgression because the world expects them to be "better". Are they expected to be "better" than non Western countries and if so why?
As for the people held illegally in Guatanamo, at least they still have their heads.

[Matra et Alpine]

Crisis, what you do is show that there are countriesa with less freedom.
Not debated :)
Just that the whiter-than-white image portrayed of American freedom is being eroded.
The facts aren't related !

We are supposed to be civilised, the moment we drop the rules to suit ourselves we THEN have no right to claim our actions are valid. AGAIN, just becuase there are burglars in your town doesnt' give your the right to burgle :)

[crisis]

Crisis, what you do is show that there are countriesa with less freedom.
Not debated :)
Just that the whiter-than-white image portrayed of American freedom is being eroded.
The facts aren't related !

We are supposed to be civilised, the moment we drop the rules to suit ourselves we THEN have no right to claim our actions are valid. AGAIN, just becuase there are burglars in your town doesnt' give your the right to burgle :)
What it shows is that we or whoever expect more from ourselves (in a Western way of thinking) or that the rest of the world and indeed the US expect that they should behave in a superior way to everyone else. The American catch cry of freedom is tiresome and the presumption that they have more freedom than anyone else a little insulting as well as ignorant and speculative. However the point that even some of their worst crimes are if not well intentioned, are positive in some way. No one can deny that Iraqi people would be better off without Saddam if it were not for the so called insurgents acts of terror. The US got rid of Saddam and even if it was for oil they liberated the Iraquis from a dictator. The Iraquis or insurgents now who are attacking their own people are the ones standing in the way of any progress.
As this relates to the question of illegally holding people in Guatanamo, it is again a fact that if a similar situation presented itself in another country they not only would likely to have been killed much less not released, some countries dont even have a legal process in place to disregard and be judged as illegal .

[spi-ti-tout]

Go into a bar in Iran (oops alchohol is illegal even if you are not Muslim), ok a a tea room and talk about Christianity.
Crisis, you ever been to Iran?

[crisis]

Crisis, you ever been to Iran?
Nope. I have to go on second hand info. I know a guy who escaped from there and lost his wife in the process. He once told me that he wished the US would do the same there as they did in Iraq. As I said, second hand. I was using Iran in this caes really as an example of a strict Muslim country and I dont particularly mean any offence by it.

[spi-ti-tout]

Nope. I have to go on second hand info. I know a guy who escaped from there and lost his wife in the process. He once told me that he wished the US would do the same there as they did in Iraq. As I said, second hand. I was using Iran in this caes really as an example of a strict Muslim country and I dont particularly mean any offence by it.
ok then, here's my opinion:

You cannot judge a countries government(ANY Country) just by looking at only one person.(and i'm not saying you are, btw)

And here's a few facts for you:

1) I was in Iran not too long ago, just very recently infact

2) They mostly do not have Public Tea Rooms

3) Even when there IS a public gathering(please exclude weddings-its private), talking about Christianity there is not such a big deal.

I'm only telling you this out of personal experience, and not second-hand(not insulting you for giving out second-hand, but IT IS always better to get first)

[crisis]

ok then, here's my opinion:

You cannot judge a countries government(ANY Country) just by looking at only one person.(and i'm not saying you are, btw)

And here's a few facts for you:

1) I was in Iran not too long ago, just very recently infact

2) They mostly do not have Public Tea Rooms

3) Even when there IS a public gathering(please exclude weddings-its private), talking about Christianity there is not such a big deal.

I'm only telling you this out of personal experience, and not second-hand(not insulting you for giving out second-hand, but IT IS always better to get first)I Agree. I was using Iran as an examplle of a strict Muslim country. Maybe should have picked somwhere else.