More US bashing.

[crisis]

This is ridiculous. I would neve class myself as anti American. I actually felt some tacit support for the invasion of Iraq. But the more you dig, the more the Bush administration stinks. Have a look at the affect the war has had on some of the top US defense companies and ask yourself why you wouldnt do the odd bit of invading here and there when the economy needs an injection.


America’s largest exporter, Boeing is also the Pentagon’s second largest contractor, eclipsed only by Lockheed Martin. Revenue from military goods now outstrips Boeing’s earnings from commercial sales by $5 billion a year.
Boeing has a lot of well-connected people looking out for its interests. John Shalikashvili, retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is on the Boeing board. Former Deputy Secretary of Defense, Rudy de Leon heads up Boeing's Washington office. After September 11th Boeing beefed up its political connections by hiring former Senator Bennett Johnson (D-LA) and former Rep. Bill Paxon (R-NY). Former Ambassador Thomas Pickering, Boeing's senior vice president for international relations, uses his forty years of experience to generate business for Boeing with foreign governments and corporations. Richard Perle, former Chairman and current member of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, is another important Boeing ally within the corridors of power. So it should come as no surprise that Boeing has provided Perle’s venture capital firm, Trireme Partners, with $20 million. Two other Defense Policy Board members also work as consultants for Boeing: the Air Force’s General Ronald Fogelman and former Navy Admiral David Jeremiah.

Boeing ranks number sixty six in the Center for Responsive Politics’ list of the 100 biggest political donors since 1989. Over the nineties, Boeing handed out $7.6 million in Political Action Committee (PAC) and soft money contributions. During the 2002 election year, Boeing gave $909,134 in PAC contributions and $700,482 in soft money donations and its contributions added up to more than $1.5 million during the 2000 elections.

Lockheed has been able to exercise its influence in a large way – in support of the invasion of Iraq. The company’s former vice-president Bruce Jackson chaired the Coalition for the Liberation of Iraq, a bipartisan group formed to promote Bush’s plan for war in Iraq. Bruce Jackson was also involved in corralling the support for the war from Eastern European countries, going so far as helping to write their letter of endorsement for military intervention. Not surprisingly, Lockheed also has business relations with these countries. In 2003 Poland shelled out $3.5 billion for 48 F-16 fighter planes, which it was able to buy with a $3.8 billion loan from the US.

Former Northrop Grumman Electronics Systems chief James Roche served as George Bush's Secretary of the Air Force for two years. Since September 11th, Roche has emphasized the need for more spending on intelligence systems, specifically mentioning Northrop Grumman's Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS), a control center and a huge radar disc mounted atop a Boeing 707, which serves "as the airborne nerve center for a military air campaign." At least seven former officials, consultants, or shareholders of Northrop Grumman now hold posts in the Bush administration, ensuring that the company’s interests are not overlooked for lucrative contracts in the “war on terrorism”, including Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Vice-Presidential Chief of Staff I. Lewis Libby, Pentagon Comptroller Dov Zakheim, and Sean O’Keefe, director of NASA.

Northrop Grumman’s subsidiary, Vinnell Corporation, has been catching a lot of flack lately. They landed a $48 million contract with the US occupational authority to train the Iraqi National Army, but have botched the job so badly that the Jordanian Army has recently been brought in to take over the job.
A favourite.
The biggest windfall in the invasion of Iraq has most certainly gone to the oil services and logistics company Halliburton. The company, which was formerly run by Vice President Dick Cheney, had revenue of over $8 billion in contracts in Iraq in 2003 alone. And while Halliburton’s dealings in Iraq have been dogged everywhere by scandal – including now a criminal investigation into overcharging by Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root for gas shipped into Iraq – Vice President Cheney manages to be doing quite well from the deal. He owns $433,000 unexercised Halliburton stock options worth more than $10 million dollars.


But Halliburton’s history of benefiting from government largesse goes back a ways. From 1962 to 1972 the Pentagon paid the company tens of millions of dollars to work in South Vietnam, where they built roads, landing strips, harbors, and military bases from the demilitarized zone to the Mekong Delta. The company was one of the main contractors hired to construct the Diego Garcia air base in the Indian Ocean, according to Pentagon military histories.

In the early 1990s the company was awarded the job to study and then implement the privatization of routine army functions under then-secretary of defense Dick Cheney. When Cheney quit his Pentagon job, he landed the job of Halliburton's CEO, bringing with him his trusted deputy David Gribbin. The two substantially increased Halliburton's government business until they quit in 2000, once Cheney was elected vice president. This included a $2.2 billion bill for a Brown and Root contract to support US soldiers in Operation Just Endeavor in the Balkans.

[Egg Nog]

You know he won't read that ;) :D

On a lighter note: Satch. (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13989)

Seriously, I'm so depressed that you missed my thread. ;)

[drakkie]

this case stinks, as does the entire bush government.i really think Cheney should get a thorough investigation and be punished hard.

btw: didn't you guys knew this ???it was quite obvious that the Bush administration was just filling their own pockets...

[silverhawk]

the bush administration is the worst govt in the world. the whole iraq war & WMD is a huge scam to cover up their excuse to invade iraq.

[RazaBlade]

more and more stuff like this is thrown into the open, but what can be done? no ones gonna take action against these people?

[blackcat77]

It's called the "military-industrial complex" and President Eisenhower warned against it right before he left office in 1960. And ever since then wars have been fought in a manner which maximizes the use of ordinance even when it's not effective to actually win. We spent weeks bombing the northern part of Afghanistan in Nov, 2001 even though we were fairly certain that Osama wasn't there, but we only made a single mission -- with about 10 men -- in the part of the country where he was. By the time we actually had troops on the ground, he was long gone.

And now in Iraq, the war was based on completely false premises, has been conducted in a terrible way with no plan going in ("They'll throw rose petals at us." -- Rummy), and no plan to get out ("We don't have an exit strategy, we have a victory strategy." -- Rummy again). We're spending $85 billion a year and not winning. We had a "democratic election" where the people in the areas that didn't like us weren't allowed to vote. And even if we DID invade them for their oil, we can't get it becuase the insurgents keep blowing up the pipelines.

Now we've nominated a man who hates the UN for our UN ambassador and Bush still refuses to do a thing about either North Korea or Pakistan, the two nations who we know for a fact at exporting nuclear material and expertise.

But because Bush carries a bible and talks with a cornpone accent, he got re-elected. God bless America -- he better because otherwise we're in deep doody...

[Godlaus]

Boeing as bad? Well, seeing as how my father works for them as an engineer, I guess I can somewhat speak on his behalf. First of all, it's business. You don't not take advantage when there's a war going on and the government needs airplanes or other products, you supply them. And if Bush gets re-elected, you see your profits go up, as if Kerry got elected, your profits don't go up as mcuh. That's a business strategy. How do you think we got out of the depression? A war saved us and the economy. Boeing's not doing anything bad, they're just doing what's best for the company.

BTW = I'm far from a bush supporter.

What really ticks me off about all this invading crap, is that in the two countries that we've invaded so far under the second bush, we've only accomplished secondary objectives. ZERO primary ones.

I believe it was the spanish-american war, errrr.... What was the war that started with the sinking of one of our battleships out an island, which was caused by our ship's powerplant being right next to the weapons storage? It's a good example to use here.

[spi-ti-tout]

the bush administration is the worst govt in the world. the whole iraq war & WMD is a huge scam to cover up their excuse to invade iraq.
You want to join the debate bandwagon?

[crisis]

Boeing as bad? Well, seeing as how my father works for them as an engineer, I guess I can somewhat speak on his behalf. First of all, it's business. You don't not take advantage when there's a war going on and the government needs airplanes or other products, you supply them. And if Bush gets re-elected, you see your profits go up, as if Kerry got elected, your profits don't go up as mcuh. That's a business strategy. How do you think we got out of the depression? A war saved us and the economy. Boeing's not doing anything bad, they're just doing what's best for the company.


No one blames the employees. The point is that the government has to many conflicts (or not) of interest.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

What annoys me about the whole issue is the Commercialisation of War in order to meet company profit margins and governments try and meet ill-reasoned attempts at Diplomacy.

It's the world; it's not for sale.

[Misho]

the bush administration is the worst govt in the world.

its not even close to that title, beleive me.

[crisis]

its not even close to that title, beleive me.
Quite. What the US government does is set very high standards for others and therefore we expect them to be also above reproach.

[Matra et Alpine]

its not even close to that title, beleive me.
trust me there is NO argument on that front.

However, it is also sadly a LONG WAY from being the "best" in world terms but even more sadly acts as if it is :(

[targa]

wahoo for america hateing......

no...wait

i live in america......

i just said something about hateing america.......duhn duhn duhn,

its patriot act man, "son, have you been laundering money?"

"no sir"

"well....never mind then"

[MRR]

I respect that you all have different opinions about the Bush Administration. However when you all start hating America as a country and people then something has seriously gone wrong. Please dont post kill the Americans crap on this sight because many people in the forums could be offended. So far the debates have been civilized but dont let it get out of control.

[Matra et Alpine]

I respect that you all have different opinions about the Bush Administration. However when you all start hating America as a country and people then something has seriously gone wrong. Please dont post kill the Americans crap on this sight because many people in the forums could be offended. So far the debates have been civilized but dont let it get out of control.
nobody ever has and would be SEVERELY reprimanded for doing so.

Howver, I'm not sure how well the media in the US covers the REAL fealings of most of the rest of the world about GWB's antics and "American Imperialism" OR the differeign views on US support for Boeing and Eureopean support for Airbus Industries :)

[Egg Nog]

I respect that you all have different opinions about the Bush Administration. However when you all start hating America as a country and people then something has seriously gone wrong. Please dont post kill the Americans crap on this sight because many people in the forums could be offended. So far the debates have been civilized but dont let it get out of control.

Don't worry, nothing ever gets out of control on UCP :)

[Pando]

This is ridiculous. I would neve class myself as anti American. I actually felt some tacit support for the invasion of Iraq. But the more you dig, the more the Bush administration stinks. Have a look at the affect the war has had on some of the top US defense companies and ask yourself why you wouldnt do the odd bit of invading here and there when the economy needs an injection. I'm in the same boat. But I'm still far from anti american. I can't believe that I would be called anything from liberal to pacifist just for standing up to some obvious bs. But this "government-sneeky-business" (not just in the US) is getting out of hand... I find it hard to believe that the next us leader would make a big change for the better neither. NO MATTER THE POLITICAL PARTY because I couldn't care less who's what. Obviously I don't believe all the conspiracies about what the US government is doing behind the scenes, but as they say no smoke without a fire. I don't really know if it is even possible to the stone from rolling anymore, but the present government sure isn't slowing it down. :( It sucks to see the world being run by corporations with their own interests. Two examples come to mind, leaded fuel & tobacco both are health hazards but still the truth was held out for decades just so that the companies could earn some money. It scares me to think about what we don't know now. :(

and for everyone who havn't read the previous similar threads I might point out that I really like the United States as a country, I have good friends there and my favourite city is in the US. I guess that's why I'm upset to see all sorts of crap happening to you. :(

[Pando]

It's called the "military-industrial complex" and President Eisenhower warned against it right before he left office in 1960. And ever since then wars have been fought in a manner which maximizes the use of ordinance even when it's not effective to actually win. We spent weeks bombing the northern part of Afghanistan in Nov, 2001 even though we were fairly certain that Osama wasn't there, but we only made a single mission -- with about 10 men -- in the part of the country where he was. By the time we actually had troops on the ground, he was long gone.

And now in Iraq, the war was based on completely false premises, has been conducted in a terrible way with no plan going in ("They'll throw rose petals at us." -- Rummy), and no plan to get out ("We don't have an exit strategy, we have a victory strategy." -- Rummy again). We're spending $85 billion a year and not winning. We had a "democratic election" where the people in the areas that didn't like us weren't allowed to vote. And even if we DID invade them for their oil, we can't get it becuase the insurgents keep blowing up the pipelines.

Now we've nominated a man who hates the UN for our UN ambassador and Bush still refuses to do a thing about either North Korea or Pakistan, the two nations who we know for a fact at exporting nuclear material and expertise.

But because Bush carries a bible and talks with a cornpone accent, he got re-elected. God bless America -- he better because otherwise we're in deep doody...Thank you for reminding me that Fleet luckily represents a minority and the majority of americans actually think for themselves. :) Well said and you have good points. But about North Korea & Pakistan I think progress actually is being made, concidering the circumstances (WMD actually excist in these countries) you should definately not go in guns blazing. :p

[shr0olvl]

who cares....

[Pando]

Boeing as bad? Well, seeing as how my father works for them as an engineer, I guess I can somewhat speak on his behalf. First of all, it's business. You don't not take advantage when there's a war going on and the government needs airplanes or other products, you supply them. And if Bush gets re-elected, you see your profits go up, as if Kerry got elected, your profits don't go up as mcuh. That's a business strategy. How do you think we got out of the depression? A war saved us and the economy. Boeing's not doing anything bad, they're just doing what's best for the company.
...what company wouldn't! ;) There's nothing wrong with that, but when governments are for sale and think more about the companies in the country than the people it just isn't moral.


BTW = I'm far from a bush supporter.

That's ok, unlike some we don't label anyone the complete opposite just because he disagrees with something. We realize there is far more than two stands on most issues ;) But watch it, you are now a Saddam supporter in someones' book ;)


What really ticks me off about all this invading crap, is that in the two countries that we've invaded so far under the second bush, we've only accomplished secondary objectives. ZERO primary ones.
I agree, well put btw. :)

[crisis]

who cares....
Valuable input :rolleyes:

[Pando]

more and more stuff like this is thrown into the open, but what can be done? no ones gonna take action against these people?
If someone thinks there's not enough debates going on already one could start a new thread about this... :D So what do you think guys? What could be done? If anything?

[shr0olvl]

whats the point of arguing over something you can't change... your just wasteing you breath.

[Godlaus]

no, not really, the voice of one adds up. besides, this is an incredibly interesting read.

[crisis]

whats the point of arguing over something you can't change... your just wasteing you breath.
Lucky you never had any influence over apartied, womens rights and slavery. I suppose we should reside ourselves to letting the Palestinians and Jews exterminate each other too. :rolleyes:

[taz_rocks_miami]

whats the point of arguing over something you can't change... your just wasteing you breath.

Intelectual excercise :)

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Can't is the word of a Quitter.
Won't is the word of an Inactive Person.
Try is the word of a Do-er.
Everyone, Let's be Do-ers.

[Coventrysucks]

whats the point of arguing over something you can't change... your just wasteing you breath.

What is the point of living if you are just going to die at the end of it?

[werty]

I love this thread....is that valuable to anyone here? :p

I support the Bush Administration.

[taz_rocks_miami]

What is the point of living if you are just going to die at the end of it?

I don't have that problem, I'm eternal:D

[Matra et Alpine]

I don't have that problem, I'm eternal:D
Be careful, next time you may come back as GWBs grandson :)

[Pando]

Be careful, next time you may come back as GWBs grandson :)
It would be hilarious to get his genes, I've heard stupid people have more fun. :rolleyes: :p

[Matra et Alpine]

It would be hilarious to get his genes, I've heard stupid people have more fun. :rolleyes: :p
CLinton had more of the kind of thing I'd hope for :)

HELL Kennedy was more a 'man' :)

[henk4]

HELL Kennedy was more a 'man' :)

I you want to return as him you might as well prey that Marilyn will be around :D

[QuattroMan]

who cares....

looks like Europeans do.... :)

[MRR]

It would be hilarious to get his genes, I've heard stupid people have more fun. :rolleyes: :p

Funny according to what I heard Bush actually scored higher on an IQ test then John Kerry (please verify this it may not be true).

[crisis]

Funny according to what I heard Bush actually scored higher on an IQ test then John Kerry (please verify this it may not be true).
Thats nothing. We just had to decided between two idiots as to who would be prime minister as well. (In Australia).

[CSL]

If you are going to bitch about boeing, make sure u bitch about all the government funds given to Airbus. Chances are great Airbus has some friends in very high places also but no one is going to bitch about that because they arent American

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Airbus not only specialises, it only builds Civilian aircraft.

Boeing has a big Military division.

I'm not going to bitch about a company which makes planes for Airlines. At full price.

[Matra et Alpine]

If you are going to bitch about boeing, make sure u bitch about all the government funds given to Airbus. Chances are great Airbus has some friends in very high places also but no one is going to bitch about that because they arent American
WRONG, lots of people do !!!!

The difficulty is that Boeing gets excessive payments thrgouh military purchases they use to bolster the development costs of their commercial arm.
Airbus is a little more PUBLIC in the way the givernments make their paymentsm so they're easier to contest.

Also, France has a fundamental belief in the right to have an industry and to fund it. It will take many generations before that is completely gone. In the past it ploughed millions into the French big-3. Not anymore.

BUT all Aerospatiale payments have been legal as they are LOANS under the 1992 accord. As I said the difference is they're highly visible as the EU doesn't allow hidden payments.

[crisis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Airbus not only specialises, it only builds Civilian aircraft.

Boeing has a big Military division.

I'm not going to bitch about a company which makes planes for Airlines. At full price.
Actually they are developing a military cargo aircraft, the A400M, and the funny thing is the US airforce is currently getting Iraqi pilots up to date with US equiptment. :rolleyes: Thats the point . The US invasion created a need for military equiptment. The Europeans largley declined so any involvement od Airbus is insignificant.

[CSL]

WRONG, lots of people do !!!!

The difficulty is that Boeing gets excessive payments thrgouh military purchases they use to bolster the development costs of their commercial arm.
Airbus is a little more PUBLIC in the way the givernments make their paymentsm so they're easier to contest.

Also, France has a fundamental belief in the right to have an industry and to fund it. It will take many generations before that is completely gone. In the past it ploughed millions into the French big-3. Not anymore.

BUT all Aerospatiale payments have been legal as they are LOANS under the 1992 accord. As I said the difference is they're highly visible as the EU doesn't allow hidden payments.

Whats wrong? are you saying airbus dosent have friends in high places or agreeing with me by saying everyone does?

[Matra et Alpine]

Whats wrong? are you saying airbus dosent have friends in high places or agreeing with me by saying everyone does?
As I explained, it benefits from the French governments view on industry.
A view which is being tempered by EU law.

And that the bitching by Boeing is a "bit rich" given the excessive funding they get on the military side which they are permitted to use to bankroll the civil development. The Airbus "bung" is a loan. The ISSUE is that if the plane developed using the loan doesnt' break even then the loan never becomes repayable. So Boeing are saying that's unfair. As the loan is not at any great preferential rate it's no different to an ordindary bank loan. If a company fails then it goes into bankruptcy and the investors don't see loan repeayments. The Airbus "swindle" acts just like that.

The REAL problem is Boeing are seeing Airbus take a LARGE chunk of their market and dont' want a strong partner able to fight back.