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View Full Version : Pebble Beach Fake Wins?



Metalguy
08-25-2005, 11:50 PM
Looking at the winner of Pebble Beach,the Delage Coupe, and having studied these Delages for 30 years I have never heard of this car existing. The chassis number does not exist in the published Delage books. I understand that Pourtout build 1 Delage D8120 (one does exist). Although entered and touted as an ''S'' chassis, it is not - unlike the special ''alloy'' features of the ''S''. There was one real S on the green at Pebble - big differance. Further the chassis is a standard diminsion one, unlike an 'S'. Is it a real car? Let's see what the Brits publish.

Matra et Alpine
08-26-2005, 02:30 AM
happens all the time.
There are LOTS more A110 GrpIVs in the world than were produced from the factory :)

BUT do you know if the judges actually investigated the provenance ?

henk4
08-26-2005, 02:42 AM
Interesting comment, I hope you are absolutely sure about what you are saying, and that you also dare to step out of your anonimity. This is an American concours and even the slightest hint of fraud from your side is likely to be responded with a law case.

Pando
08-26-2005, 03:03 AM
Any pictures of the car in question?

Wouter Melissen
08-26-2005, 03:05 AM
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=2420

Pando
08-26-2005, 03:12 AM
Interesting. Very interesting. I want to see how this evolves... Have you informed "anyone" about this?

Matra et Alpine
08-26-2005, 03:46 AM
erm, MetalGuy, you had better be providing PROOF that you're claims made on the UCP page are valid !!!

I'd recommend they be removed from there until validated.

For someone who is so positive, can you confirm what investigation in the provenance was undertaken ?

piston_burner
08-26-2005, 09:10 AM
Pebble Beach became a top rated show because they had tightened their standards over twenty years ago. This means they created a review process that weeds out the fakes. I think this is one of the reasons that dramatic round doors Rolls Royce did win any class awards. Some question the past of that car. Under Lorin Tryon's leadership I cannot imagine any fakes won class or overall awards. I wokred with Lorin Tyron and knew many people in the collector world who had high respect for Lorin. He was a world leader in Classic Era cars. Lorin may have passed on, but the system and standards he put into place continue.

It can be hard to prove some cars history. There are far more Bugatti Type 35b cars in the world then were ever made. Some dealers will claim a car was made a historic coachbuilder when it was made by a modern chop shop. The owner of the Delage is a multiple winner at Pebble Beach and has been entering cars there for over twenty years. If there had been any question of the history of the winning Delage, it would have never won.

forza_autodelta
08-26-2005, 09:25 AM
does anybody have the same book , or the list of the chassis numbers.it's quite surprising for a coucours d'élégance of this reputation .
there're a lot of problems actually too with copies of Sprint Zagatos 1300 and Ferraris , 'cause Italians did lots of wrong chassis

piston_burner
08-26-2005, 09:49 AM
I will do some checking around. I know people in the Classic Car world that may have information on what kind of documentation this Delage has. As someone who is trying to document every car from a niche builder, I know how the numbers and records can be a mess and how some information may not get published. This author may have not have had all the records when the book was published. We cannot jump to conclusions.

Wouter Melissen
08-26-2005, 08:41 PM
Looking at the winner of Pebble Beach,the Delage Coupe, and having studied these Delages for 30 years I have never heard of this car existing. The chassis number does not exist in the published Delage books. I understand that Pourtout build 1 Delage D8120 (one does exist). Although entered and touted as an ''S'' chassis, it is not - unlike the special ''alloy'' features of the ''S''. There was one real S on the green at Pebble - big differance. Further the chassis is a standard diminsion one, unlike an 'S'. Is it a real car? Let's see what the Brits publish.

If you want to add or change anything to your remarks can you please post a new post instead of editing the original post almost 12 hours and many responses later? This is a very serious and delicate matter, but I found it interesting enough to let you defend and explain yourself some more, but if you continue to change your story like this I'm forced to delete the thread.

On the subject at hand, the owner had a file on him with pictures of the car in the 1940s/50s when it had slightly modified windows. Sadly, I have not seen that personally. Like was said before, I find it highly doubtful that the organizers would have allowed it in if there was any doubt about it. Think about it, it is in their best interest to allow only cars with impeccable histories on the field. There are plenty of eager owners waiting to get theirs on. This was the fourth time the owner scored a best of show, so he's clearly an enthusiast and someone who would set up this elaborate scheme to win at Pebble.

lithuanianmafia
08-26-2005, 08:55 PM
man, if what metalguy says turns out to be true, this would certainly shit up the whole car show world...but I sincerely hope that his claims are legit and well founded, not just some made up BS

forza_autodelta
08-27-2005, 02:18 AM
hey , you're back , cool:), Metalguy won't post more:( it's a pity

Onebugatti
08-28-2005, 02:15 PM
Some facts on the Delage that won Pebble. The club register in the UK has records on this car, and actually selected it while serving as was one of the Judges at the show. After viewing the photos, it doesnt look like an ''S'', but the ''S'' thing is always thrown around often to add clout to ''Normal'' chassis - Kinda like inches to angry inch. Pourtout built simple coachworks, this must be one of the cleanest. There are photos Pre-1950's existing, I think even in the 1940's. I have them - they are real. The 1940's Delage Pourtout has a different bonnet shape , wipers in different location, and a different grill and looks different than the current fair, but this car did exist and is known and that is enough. The owner is crazy for these cars, I know him and although his other 3 wins are known to have styling modifcations not ''cricket'', if he owes the cars he can do what the hell he wants - right? I like this car, Pourtout did some great stuff with the little Peugots with the same simplicity. Hats off to any guy who can take down Ralphy Baby and the entire classic car mafia with such a ''simple voiture extraordinaire''.

henk4
08-28-2005, 02:29 PM
There was also a George Irat with a Pourtout body on the Concours, probably very few people will have noticed it :)

Duesey
08-28-2005, 09:22 PM
While there may be some confusion over naming specifics (and it wouldn't be the first time, see John Motzart's win with his Voisin in 2002 that led to speculation of incorrect model designation), the cars are original, Pebble Beach wouldn't INVITE the car to be there if it wasn't, let alone judge it and let it win. If you have ever witnessed a Pebble Beach judging, it is something to behold. We're talking about guys who nitpick on the tpye of HEADLIGHTS the car has, let alone whether it is a real car.

piston_burner
08-28-2005, 10:35 PM
Just to add to what Duesy is saying, most of the experts in the Classic Era world are at Pebble Beach doing the judging. The heads of the Classic Car Car Club of America and other groups like that are all involved.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Lorin Tryon snapped the Pebble Beach show into shape and brought the reputation of the show up to become the most respected show in this kind in the world. Lorin has passed on, but many of the people who worked with him are still there keeping the high standards. Odds are against this Delage being a fake or a normal Delage made into something exceptional.

piston_burner
08-29-2005, 08:37 PM
Here is a response I got from Jon Lee who is senior member of the Classic Car Club of America and a judge at Pebble Beach.


Every year that I have judged at Pebble Beach there has been some story about the Best of Show Car being a fake. I think by now it would be slightly disappointing if no one did call the B.o.S. a phoney car.
In my opinion, Glenn Mounger and Jules Heumann have don an excellent job upholding the standards set by Lorin Tryon.
The best authority I know on Delage is Richard Adatto in Washington state. His recently published book, "Delage Styling and Design", illustrates Sam Mann's Delage and gives a brief account of its history.
I also know Sam Mann a bit. I have never known him to misrepresent any car he has. In fact, I have known him to downplay the importance of many that he owns. His restorations are impeccable and I believe his research to be torough. I'm sure that Richard Adatto figured in the research on this car and that information was passed onto the Pebble Beach organizers.
It always amazes me the sheer volume of documentation that most exhibitors bring with them to Pebble Beach.
When someone complains about such-and-such a car being a fake (and it does come to us at the Classification Committee more often than I'd like), my first response is to ask for supporting documentation. I have yet to have any of the protagonists ever follow up. Consequently, if someone complains about any car, it is up to them to produce some information; after all, the owner already has a pile of documentation supporting his car.


I am all for questioning things and I think in this case the answer is the Pebble Beach 2005 winning Delage is legit.

henk4
08-30-2005, 12:10 AM
as can be derived from this answer, also the protagonist Metalguy has further abstained from bringing forward any evidence of his claim.

AndyM
08-30-2005, 11:02 AM
Duesey - the Voisin that won BOS in 2002 is not a John Mozart car. It is part of the same collection that took BOS this year with the Delage.

Metalguy - the Delage that won at PB this year is far from a fake and your assertion to the contrary is comical at best.