Tradition

[crisis]

I read recently where Jewish people cant eat pork (which I knew) or shellfish. Apart from being pleased Im not Jewish, it made me think about traditions and customs. While Im not aiming this soley at religion, it pertains to it as well as other customs. A custom or tradition must start somewhere. Some person or group have at some time, in most cases hundreds if not thousands of years ago, decided for whatevert their reasons, that an act is either desirable, undesirable, taboo or compulsory. What I cant reconcile is why people today would persist in living their lives according to some ancient , and in many cases unreasonable, set of rules. What they are saying effectively, is that whoever made these rules up, and I dont know who they were, is more qualified to run my life than I am. I am not capable of making rational decisions so I will rely on a person/s from history to do it for me. In the case of religion this becomes deadly of course and as we all know is responsible for much of the atrocities that have been pertpetrated throughout all of history.

[DiabloGTR]

People are not open-minded enough to think on their own. Some people will just accept what they are told, this is true especially in the case of religion. People wont accept the scienctific evidence, but they would rather let religion explain it, with 0% proof.
People are just to stupid and blind to think on their own. They don't want to be open-minded, try new things and question what they have been told.
I'm not governed by any religion made up by some con artist thousands of years ago. I'm free and live by own principles and some traditions of my culture, but I don't take it to the extreme.
Culture and traditions are great, but it should be kept to a minimum and not taken to the extreme like most people take it throughout the world.

[Falcon500]

Well i persoanlly belive religion is a wonderful thing if you can believe in somthing so much you sure have some strenghts of your own. I persoanllybelive there is a god and all that sort of stuff but i dont let it controll my life although i view most of their teachings are a good way to live by (if someine threatens me i will not turn the other cheek for example)
And tradition is good too not all traditions are 1000s of years old either like take australia day and all that they might be annaul things but have they not been around that long youcouldcall them tradition? our country has been around for 203 odd years now and we have been celebrating it for a damn long time.
Thats just the way i see it.

[crisis]

take australia day and all that they might be annaul things but have they not been around that long youcouldcall them tradition? our country has been around for 203 odd years now and we have been celebrating it for a damn long time.
Thats just the way i see it.
That tradition does not require anyone to sacrifice anything, give up anything or to perform any particular act other than not go to work. Is this the characteristic of modern traditions, that we dont feel the need to deprive ourselfs to appease some greater power?

[Pliz]

this is what i know:

1. Hindus dont eat beef
2. Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion
3. Sanskrit (Hindu language) Is the oldest surviving language.
4. When the whole world was joined it was called "Gondwanaland" and "Gondwana" is the name of a small village in India (the country where hinduism started)
5. A group of people called "Aryan's" came from somewhere in Europe millions of years ago and took over North India, when they did the Indians fled to south India.

From what I know I'd says Indians were the first people on earth. :)

[Falcon500]

That tradition does not require anyone to sacrifice anything, give up anything or to perform any particular act other than not go to work. Is this the characteristic of modern traditions, that we dont feel the need to deprive ourselfs to appease some greater power?
Well you i guess i slightly misentrapreted what you said a little...
You mean things like that day you cant eat meat other then fish or chicken. Well as i said there i view that as human beings a good a majority need somthing to cling onto or to believe in to make their dayly lives more bearable and to give them a feeling there is somthing more out there.While i would nto go out of my way to deprive myself of somthing i enjoy for the sake of a so called omni present being some people do...and it makes them happy...complete knowing that they are doing their belif good can you really complain about another person simple satisfaction if it doesnt confront you?

[crisis]

can you really complain about another person simple satisfaction if it doesnt confront you?
No. If it has no negative effect on anyone else. My proposition was put up, in this case mearly to stimulate discussion.

[Falcon500]

Well i have a mate who worked with a muslim of some description who used to as he said touched head with a mat once or twice a shift (im assuming he ment praying) and as a strage co incidence it used to be at the busyest times and he took a full lunch break afterwards now if thats not affecting other people who have to cover for him i dont know what does.

[DiabloGTR]

this is what i know:

1. Hindus dont eat beef
2. Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion
3. Sanskrit (Hindu language) Is the oldest surviving language.
4. When the whole world was joined it was called "Gondwanaland" and "Gondwana" is the name of a small village in India (the country where hinduism started)
5. A group of people called "Aryan's" came from somewhere in Europe millions of years ago and took over North India, when they did the Indians fled to south India.

From what I know I'd says Indians were the first people on earth. :)

Umm, no. The Aryan invasion took place about 2000 years ago. The Aryans fused their religion with the religion in India, and that became Hinduism. Sanskrit is the language that the Aryans spoke, but when they arrived in India they made a alphabet for Sanskrit. Many different languages grew out of Sanskrit, like Bengali, Hindi and Urdu.
The swastika is the Aryan sign for the circle of life, Hitler made a mistake when he got caught up in the whole Aryan thing.
Aryans came from somewhere in Europe, they were nomadic but they ended up settling in India and mixing with the people that were already in India. Thats why you see some people from the Indian sub-continent with lite skin, they aren't white folk, but they do have some lite colored skin with dark bown hair.
Sorry for the history lesson.
Falcon500, Muslims use a special mat that they pray on. They touch their heads on it after some prayers and get up and start praying again.
I wouldn't know that much, I'm an Atheist.

[Misho]

Well i have a mate who worked with a muslim of some description who used to as he said touched head with a mat once or twice a shift (im assuming he ment praying) and as a strage co incidence it used to be at the busyest times and he took a full lunch break afterwards now if thats not affecting other people who have to cover for him i dont know what does.

i need some sort of insight on what exactly is it that you are trying to say here, because from what i understood from your post, you seem to be a bit misguided.

as for Muslims, they pray five times a day. each prayer takes about 5 minutes. prayers are according to specified times, the first one is at dawn, the second at noon, after-noon, sunset and early evening.

just wanted to post something informative rather than being critical without the proper knowledge.

[Falcon500]

[QUOTE=Misho]i need some sort of insight on what exactly is it that you are trying to say here, because from what i understood from your post, you seem to be a bit misguided.

as for Muslims, they pray five times a day. each prayer takes about 5 minutes. prayers are according to specified times, the first one is at dawn, the second at noon, after-noon, sunset and early evening.

just wanted to post something informative rather than being critical without the proper knowledge [QUOTE=Misho]
Well the touch head with the mat statement was obviously the wrong thing to type im just putting it in the words my friend put them in...nobody at work particuarly liked him he was actually quite racist unsociable refering to F***ing australians and absoulty would not acknowlage any women who worked there.
I was also given the impression his mother wore head to toe clothing only showing her eyes that might explain why he didnt like any of the shelias there...and also the reason why i said he was a muslim of some varity because im given the impression belifes and actions vary from area to area.
Sorry for my ignorence on the subject but the muslim religion is a fair kind of a mystery to most westeners. And thank you for the info on the prayes i was given the impression they lasted longer he still did take an extra 20min for lunch. He sort of didnt reappear from his prayers after he done them and you didnt see him till after lunch.

[Misho]

no pro Falcon, hope i helped a bit though.
as for that guy, he's another case of extremist muslims that give the relegion a negative image, particulary in the west where such actions are viewed as extremely outrageous.
i can't understand how such people think, they travel to live in a country that accepts them and all they do is criticise that place and never try to be part of that new culture (at least take some of the good points). if you don't like that place and want to live such a radical lifestyle, then please either do it in your country or at least shut up and stop criticising everything you see and adopting a racist behaviour.

hey falcon, would u be able to convey this message to that guy ?? :)
probably not, coz he will accuse you of being a racist, file a lawsuit against you, start criticising the country even more and then continue to live there !

[Misho]

as for tradition, i think its a wonderful thing when done without imposing any negative side effects. it truly gives you a feeling of heritage and richness. i find it hard to expain verbally what i mean, but to appreciate tradition, you have to experience it. i understand that most of the users here are from australia and canada, newly born countries without much of the traditions and cultural depth found in other places among the globe, hence most of them will not appreciate tradition.
obviously some acts and/or habits which are attributed to tradition are extremely radical and need to be dropped. but on a broader scale, tradition
provides a very important sense of warmth to those culturally rich places that value them.

[Falcon500]

Well my mate once pulled him to the side and said "mate we didnt ever do anything to you. We take speacial care to cater for your religion and you do nothing but slur us" he just responded with a scornful remark and my mate walked off saying didnt your mother ever teack you if you have nothing nice to say dont say nothing at all.
I personally have a little respect for the fact hes brave enough to do somthing so diffrent in a very ingorent area but hes just not a nice person and scorning someone because she isnt wearing full clothing or on a basis of religion/race is just not on.
As forme i have a slight admission the other day walking through woden plaza i saw a woman wearing the full body cloathing BLACK on a sweltering hot day and all i could do was just stare its just somthing i have never seen in person and to me it was very out of the ordinary and not to mention impractical for such a hot country. And australia despite claims is avery tolerent country shecould get away not wearing that and of course its not a problem if its her choice. And one thing that bugs me is apprently i fit the description of the most racist group in the country! white blue eyed blonde haired of english/irish(me)/scotish descent. Why people even bother doing such seveys is beyond me it just amkles the rest opf us look bad :(
My grandfather served over in the arab nations as he called them in ww2 and he said for the great majority he has an undieing respect for most muslums and he said he knew some bloke who had a titel like "muktar" and he apprently was high up in their society....any idea what that means i was about to ask him but he trailed off.
And on a final note i would love to relay this message to him and unless he some how could pin someone of the same religion of being racist i dont know how he could zap me.

[Misho]

impractical for such a hot country.


My grandfather served over in the arab nations as he called them in ww2 and he said for the great majority he has an undieing respect for most muslums and he said he knew some bloke who had a titel like "muktar" and he apprently was high up in their society....any idea what that means i was about to ask him but he trailed off.


And on a final note i would love to relay this message to him and unless he some how could pin someone of the same religion of being racist i dont know how he could zap me.

hot country ?? they do that in the middle east with temperatures in excess of 60 degrees celsius under the sun and humudity of 100%.

anyone who truly understood the islamic relegion like your grandfather, must respect it highly. as for the title u mentioned, it doesnt ring any bells in my head. maybe it was something used in the past. i will ask and inform you if i know something about it.

such people are insanely close minded and having a conversation with them is pretty much useless. they remind me of some users here in these forums!! :)

[Falcon500]

Well i understand what you mean abojut tradition and whuile ireland might not be a incredibly old country I (my parents do not partake in this at all) Really get into St patricks day i don some green and drink the green home brew beer (and what ever esle is on offer) and sing traditional and some new irish songs all night and while usually staggering and puffed from attempting to jig (im not full irish so i cant hold a tune or dance properly :D ) I feel closer to what i view my spiritule home.
Wellyes i know but they dont need to wear solid black ankel to head clothing here...how they avoid passin out is beyond me :confused:
Well i do try and be open minded though at times i closemy mind and aim to be a pain in the arse :) Good thing is the "insanly" closedminded ones most of them are no loger with us.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

this is what i know:

1. Hindus dont eat beef
2. Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion
3. Sanskrit (Hindu language) Is the oldest surviving language.
4. When the whole world was joined it was called "Gondwanaland" and "Gondwana" is the name of a small village in India (the country where hinduism started)
5. A group of people called "Aryan's" came from somewhere in Europe millions of years ago and took over North India, when they did the Indians fled to south India.

From what I know I'd says Indians were the first people on earth. :)
actually Hinds eat beef, and any other meat as long as it wasn't slaughtered, it must die of natural purposes.

[crisis]

And one thing that bugs me is apprently i fit the description of the most racist group in the country! white blue eyed blonde haired of english/irish(me)/scotish descent. Why people even bother doing such seveys is beyond me it just amkles the rest opf us look bad :(

Paradoxically, blue eyed white anglo countries (ie Australia , the US, England)for the most cater to minority groups and religions (Muslim being minority in the context of Australia at least) with prayer rooms in universities, tv programs, food production and outlets, places of worship, laws to prohibit discrimination, laws to prohibit the celebration of white anglo traditions like Christmas in some public schools and kindergartens etc yet you can recieve a stoning for drinking a beer in a decent Muslim country.

[Falcon500]

Paradoxically, blue eyed white anglo countries (ie Australia , the US, England)for the most cater to minority groups and religions (Muslim being minority in the context of Australia at least) with prayer rooms in universities, tv programs, food production and outlets, places of worship, laws to prohibit discrimination, laws to prohibit the celebration of white anglo traditions like Christmas in some public schools and kindergartens etc yet you can recieve a stoning for drinking a beer in a decent Muslim country.
Yeah i know what your saying but my point is we bend over backwards to cater for other religions here and i make an effort to not do that. But according to some study im a racist because i look like one....whats the point? it just means if i go to court for a racisum charge it means im more likly to get charged becausde i fit the out line...Like that woman who got less compensation when her husband died because she was good looking and was very likely to remarry because of the way she looked...but now thats too far off the subject.
While im all for makeing everyone feel better i still think it wrong to take away christmas from a public area like a school christmas if for the children and i really doubt a 7 year old muslim kid would miss out on the high spirits and the enjoyment the holdiay brings while he mightend celibrate it himselfif everyone else is having fun i cant see why he cant. And there was a local council that removed the sales of ham sandwhiches! because muslims dont eat them! and when the muslim community was intervieewd all they said was "they didnt even bother to ask us how we felt. We dont want to deprive someone of lunch" so our goverment in my opion is bringing political correctness way to far there is a point were its good but only up to a point.....

[Misho]

you can recieve a stoning for drinking a beer in a decent Muslim country.

i really doubt that ever happens. even in the saudi arabia, which is considered the most extremist country in terms of applying strict relegious and cultural laws, foreigners are allowed to drink, smoke, have sex and live their culture in limited and known areas, with the knowledge of local authorities that willingly close their eyes. foreigners (mainly western ppl) live in closed, fenced complexes referred to as compounds. local police never enters these compounds leaving those people to do as they like. i have been to many such places and i assure you that u can have as much fun in a party inside one of those compounds as u will ever have in australia or mardi gras !!! (maybe thats stretching it a bit) :)
i am not trying to compare the freedom given to muslims in australia to that given to australians in saudi arabia, i just wanted to shed some light on the fact stated by crisis.

[crisis]

i really doubt that ever happens. even in the saudi arabia, which is considered the most extremist country in terms of applying strict relegious and cultural laws, foreigners are allowed to drink, smoke, have sex and live their culture in limited and known areas, with the knowledge of local authorities that willingly close their eyes. foreigners (mainly western ppl) live in closed, fenced complexes referred to as compounds. local police never enters these compounds leaving those people to do as they like. i have been to many such places and i assure you that u can have as much fun in a party inside one of those compounds as u will ever have in australia or mardi gras !!! (maybe thats stretching it a bit) :)
i am not trying to compare the freedom given to muslims in australia to that given to australians in saudi arabia, i just wanted to shed some light on the fact stated by crisis.
The ignorance of us Westerners. Lucky we have you.

[Misho]

Lucky we have you.

thank you !! i highly regard and appreciate your compliment, which i consider to be a motive to help me always try and give a different prespective on issues of which i might have some knowledge about.

[Falcon500]

thank you !! i highly regard and appreciate your compliment, which i consider to be a motive to help me always try and give a different prespective on issues of which i might have some knowledge about.
well you most certainly do a good job of it as i said when i added rep to you i learned alot and your a valuble member.
enjoy the three points i give
-Nick

[Pliz]

Umm, no. The Aryan invasion took place about 2000 years ago. The Aryans fused their religion with the religion in India, and that became Hinduism. Sanskrit is the language that the Aryans spoke, but when they arrived in India they made a alphabet for Sanskrit. Many different languages grew out of Sanskrit, like Bengali, Hindi and Urdu.
The swastika is the Aryan sign for the circle of life, Hitler made a mistake when he got caught up in the whole Aryan thing.
Aryans came from somewhere in Europe, they were nomadic but they ended up settling in India and mixing with the people that were already in India. Thats why you see some people from the Indian sub-continent with lite skin, they aren't white folk, but they do have some lite colored skin with dark bown hair.
Sorry for the history lesson.
Falcon500, Muslims use a special mat that they pray on. They touch their heads on it after some prayers and get up and start praying again.
I wouldn't know that much, I'm an Atheist. lol so since my ancestors came from europe i have a "european" thingy in my blood, by the way if something happened 100 years ago i refer that as "millions of years ago"...lol also that ramayan and gita stuff and ram, laxhman and sita stuff came from aryans...cool aye

[Pliz]

actually Hinds eat beef, and any other meat as long as it wasn't slaughtered, it must die of natural purposes. no, you mean muslims NOT hindus, muslims eat beef but it must be "halal"

[Misho]

muslims eat beef but it must be "halal"

that is mostly true, but i think it will be a lot better for all the users if u can explain what "halal" is.

[Pliz]

that is mostly true, but i think it will be a lot better for all the users if u can explain what "halal" is. why dont you do it? you'll probably do a better job, i've lived with muslims nearly whole my life but never asked them what halal means, i think its some kinda prayer thingy they say before slaughtering so it becomes halal.

[Misho]

i know this is kinda late, but i just got this email forwarded to me and i thought it could shed some light on the topic mentioned by Pliz.


"GOOD TO KNOW
>
>WHY IS PORK FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM??
>
>
>Bob: Tell me why is it that a Muslim is very particular about the
>Words Halaal and Haraam; what do they mean?
>
>Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is
>Not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Qur'an which draws the
>Distinction between the two.
>
>Bob: Can you give me an example?
>
>Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree
> That a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an
>abundance of Uric acid, a chemical substance that can be injurious to
>human health.
>
>Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human
>Being it is excreted as a waste product and in fact we are told that
>98% of the body's uric acid is extracted from the blood by the
>Kidneys and removed through urination.
>
>Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed
> Method of animal slaughter in Islam.
>
>Bob: What do you mean?
>
>Yunus: You see, the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of
> The 'Almighty', makes an incision through the jugular veins,
> leaving all other Veins and organs intact.
>
>
>Bob: I see, this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of
>Blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ.
>
>Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the
> Brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately
>and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate
the flesh. This Implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and
>contaminated with uric Acid and therefore very poisonous; only today did our dieticians realize Such a thing.
>
>Bob: Again, while on the topic of food; why do Muslims condemn the
> Eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine.
>
>Yunus: Actually, apart from the Qur'an prohibiting the consumption
> Of pork, bacon (pig flesh); in fact the Bible too in
>Leviticus
>chapter 11,Verse 8, regarding swine it says, "Of their flesh (of
the swine another name for pig) shall you not eat, and of their carcass
you shallnot Touch; they are "unclean to you." Further, did you know
that a pig couldn’t be Slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck;
that is according To its natural anatomy? A Muslim reasons that if the pig
was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the Creator
would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, all that aside, I
am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork,in any form, be it pork chops, ham, bacon.
>
>
>Bob: The medical science finds that there is a risk for various
> diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many
parasites and potential diseases.
>
>Yunus: Yes, even apart from that, as we talked about uric acid
> content in the blood, it is important to note that the
pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content, the
>remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body.
>
>Please forward to others............it may answer some of there
>questions especially when the children ask."


i know its kinda long and boring, i just thought its better to copy and paste it in the same way i received it, rather than altering with its content.

[NoOne]

Actually it was quite interesting and not in the least boring, thanx again for clearing up many questions and misconceptions some of us may have. :)