Who possesses more technology?

[lfb666]

Who possesses more technology?
The companies of cars European, American or Japanese?


Look this List:

. Fuel injection was first used on the 1954 Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing.
.1908 Henry Ford begins mass production of the Model T
.1908 Henry Ford adds conveyor belt to improve mass production system for Model T.
.1915 Cadillac introduces the first mass produced V-8 engine.
.1919 Dussenberg demonstrates first use of hydraulic brake fluid as a link between pedal and mechanism.
.1934 Chrysler Airflow becomes the first mass-produced streamlined car.
.1934 Chrysler adds fifth gear (overdrive).
.1948 Disc brakes are introduced by Chrysler.
.1967 Pontiac develops safer car bumpers that absorb some of the energy of an impact or collision.
. 90% of wins in LeMans are European cars
. Air Conditioning in Cars The first car with an actual refrigeration system was the 1940 model year Packard.
. Electric Windows Daimler introduced electric windows in cars in 1948.
. Volvo had the first safety belts in 1849.
. Supercharger Ferdinand Porsche invented the first supercharged Mercedes-Benz SS & SSK sports cars in Stuttgart, Germany in 1923.
. Carburetor, gasoline: Maybach in 1893

[2002GTI]

BMW is working on electronicly controlled valve technology (no camshafts). Now this is advanced. I would guess that other companies are working on it too, but... haven't heard about anyone else.

This alone puts the Europeans ahed in my book.

[Matra et Alpine]

Who possesses more technology?
The companies of cars European, American or Japanese?

. Fuel injection was first used on the 1954 Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing.But invented for diesels long before that and patented for petrol engines by Henry FORD decades before !

.1934 Chrysler Airflow becomes the first mass-produced streamlined car. erm, 1921 Rumpler Wagon !
Course what it WAS, was the start of an era in American Auto design where if it LOOKED aerodynamic, then it had to be :)

.1948 Disc brakes are introduced by Chrysler. In 1901, British inventor Frederick William Lanchester patented disc brakes

1967 Pontiac develops safer car bumpers that absorb some of the energy of an impact or collision. While the rest of the world designed safer cars that didn't way tons and smash each other on impact :)

. 90% of wins in LeMans are European carsMost reliable is Maxda with the rotary engine !

. Air Conditioning in Cars The first car with an actual refrigeration system was the 1940 model year Packard.British cars had built in air conditiong for years..... When the floors rusted through you got a nice cooling breeze :)
and then their was the Scottish "4-70" air conditioning .....
....
open 4 windows and drive at 70mph :)

Good list.

[Matra et Alpine]

BMW is working on electronicly controlled valve technology (no camshafts). Now this is advanced. I would guess that other companies are working on it too, but... haven't heard about anyone else.

This alone puts the Europeans ahed in my book.
Tried in F1 long time ago with no benefit. After playing with pressure operated and the nightmare of plumbing they looked at electronic. To make the valves move fast enough it required solenoids the size of coke cans. not ideal for a 40 valve engine :)

Briefly played with in bikes but the weight penalty is too much.

In a big lumbering BMW the extra weight and size won't be noticed :)

I believe the "valve train" is from Siemens.

It's the ultimate as us computer jocks can play with valve opening, closing overlap to our hearts content. A lot easier than profiling a cam !!!

[Batmobile_Turbo]

they are all equal, japan has had the most developement on rotarys, america has had a lot of large engine developement (V8s mostly), and europe has had some of the best quality of cars, also the best luxury.

[GT500]

mm....America has big engines (throaty V8 hehe), but it doesn't posess(sp?) as many techonological advancements as either of the other two. When Japan was upgrading, America should have too, and Europe did so with the Japanese. Right now I'd say Europe has the best technology, but it seems Japan isn't far behind and America is starting to move up in my books.


Cars in the Middle East rule. ;)

[crisis]

Most Japanese technological work is done to develope something that someone else invented. They variously develope some things to a better level than the original but original is rarely a word you can use to describe the Japanese auto industry. The true breakthroughs were in the US and UK but were mostly many years ago. In truth there is very little genuinely new technology these days, mostly developements made spossibly by the microchip and variations on a theme.

[crisis]

But invented for diesels long before that and patented for petrol engines by Henry FORD decades before !
erm, 1921 Rumpler Wagon !
Course what it WAS, was the start of an era in American Auto design where if it LOOKED aerodynamic, then it had to be :)
In 1901, British inventor Frederick William Lanchester patented disc brakes
While the rest of the world designed safer cars that didn't way tons and smash each other on impact :)
Most reliable is Maxda with the rotary engine !
British cars had built in air conditiong for years..... When the floors rusted through you got a nice cooling breeze :)
and then their was the Scottish "4-70" air conditioning .....
....
open 4 windows and drive at 70mph :)

Good list.
Typically informative post. I tried to give you a point but big bro wouldnt let me for some reason . I have to spread around the joy first.

[Matra et Alpine]

Most Japanese technological work is done to develope something that someone else invented. They variously develope some things to a better level than the original but original is rarely a word you can use to describe the Japanese auto industry. The true breakthroughs were in the US and UK but were mostly many years ago. In truth there is very little genuinely new technology these days, mostly developements made spossibly by the microchip and variations on a theme.
Sorry to burst a few bubbles, but this sterotypical image of the Japenese car industry isn't the case.
Japanese bike manufacturesr have played with things in engines only now being tried in cars. Honda had a ceramic engine they raced nearly 20 years ago !
Power/weight ratios the Japanese engines are hard to match even now.
Yamaha played with things in the F1 engine that are STILL kept confidential !
Yep, they copied - it's no secret that Maxda bought lots of Lotus Elans before the designed the MX-5. But, be honest every designer does that. It's just that the end product is often better from Japan that makes it so obvious.
What is often misunderstood is the way Japanese companies co-operate. Yamaha are beleived to have passed on all the F1 results to Toyota.
There is a level of co-operation and sharing which is natural for their industry and UNnatural for capitalism as grown in the US of A.
At the end of the day I don't care if somethings is 'copied' to give us a better car or whether it's oriiginal. The best will win :)

[crisis]

Sorry to burst a few bubbles, but this sterotypical image of the Japenese car industry isn't the case.
Japanese bike manufacturesr have played with things in engines only now being tried in cars. Honda had a ceramic engine they raced nearly 20 years ago !
Power/weight ratios the Japanese engines are hard to match even now.
Yamaha played with things in the F1 engine that are STILL kept confidential !
Yep, they copied - it's no secret that Maxda bought lots of Lotus Elans before the designed the MX-5. But, be honest every designer does that. It's just that the end product is often better from Japan that makes it so obvious.
What is often misunderstood is the way Japanese companies co-operate. Yamaha are beleived to have passed on all the F1 results to Toyota.
There is a level of co-operation and sharing which is natural for their industry and UNnatural for capitalism as grown in the US of A.
At the end of the day I don't care if somethings is 'copied' to give us a better car or whether it's oriiginal. The best will win :)
Ceramic engines aside, power to weight ratios are again only a developement thing. I dont know what the F! engine thing is so I'll leave that. If you attribute technology to any thing that is done to exixsting technology you have a point but it probably leaves you with more time to develope the already invented when you leave the real inventions to someone else.

[Matra et Alpine]

leaves you with more time to develope the already invented when you leave the real inventions to someone else.
There hasn't been an invention in engines in the last 50 years that wasn't already proposed or described !
Besides what is 'smarter' - to stand on the shuolders of the giants who came before or thier toes ??

[Batmobile_Turbo]

There hasn't been an invention in engines in the last 50 years that wasn't already proposed or described !
Besides what is 'smarter' - to stand on the shuolders of the giants who came before or thier toes ??
Japan is more of an innovative country when it comes to cars. they didn't invent the rotary but they made the first successful rotary cars, they didn't invent hybrid technology but they made the first comercial hybrid cars. they turned a futuristic novelty into a present innovation. so who cares who "invented" it, an invention means nothing if it isn't put into good use, and that's what Japan does, innovates and refines.
Besides improving other technologys Japan has also been an economic innovater of the car industry. they make some of the cheapest but reliable cars you can buy, from sports car to luxury car.

[Matra et Alpine]

Japan is more of an innovative country when it comes to cars. they didn't invent the rotary but they made the first successful rotary cars, they didn't invent hybrid technology but they made the first comercial hybrid cars. they turned a futuristic novelty into a present innovation. so who cares who "invented" it, an invention means nothing if it isn't put into good use, and that's what Japan does, innovates and refines.
Besides improving other technologys Japan has also been an economic innovater of the car industry. they make some of the cheapest but reliable cars you can buy, from sports car to luxury car.
Agreed would have conveyed the same message :)

[crisis]

Japan is more of an innovative country when it comes to cars.
I'll stand down. Revisting the question as put "Who posseses the most technology" is actually hard to quantify. No point in arguing really.

[Egg Nog]

With the development of valves opened by solenoids and other technologies, I really begin to question the idea of the internal combustion engine itself. The thing is, engines used to day still operate on the same principles as Nick Otto's original 4-stroke. Sure, there have been improvements, but everything else in the world sure has come a lot farther over the past 100+ years...

It kinda makes you wonder what a car would be if it were conceived and produced for the first time nowadays. I certainly don't think it would use an archaic ol' internal combustion engine. :)

Anyway, applicable hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner...

[Matra et Alpine]

what a car would be if it were conceived and produced for the first time nowadays. I certainly don't think it would use an archaic ol' internal combustion engine. :)
For the weight, space and safety the IC engine would be re-invented for your mythical 'todays' car.
Electric's not there yet, too big to store power and limited battery life :(
Petrol is the best compromise between energy per Kg/liter carried and safety.
Bio-fuels are expensive to treat for to match petrol.
Ethanols explode easily, hydrogen cells are bombs waiting to go off. Before they'll bring benefits they havce to find a safer way and bring down packaging weights.
Solar won't work in Scotland :)
So given we'd all want fast, then petrol it is.
Unless of course you think todays 'new' car we'd accept 0-60 in 30 seconds and 40mph max speeds.
Think we won't push the power source to it's limits ? We used to rally with AVGAS in the Audis - shh :)

[Falcon500]

Well its common to see really powerful v8s here quite illegaly mind you running avgas ;)
Solar cars work here single seat areodynamic shell with no sotrage space and can only run 100km/h stuff that for a joke!
The semi diesel idea is gaining some ground here people wanting truckers to run bio diesel. I asked about the semi Diesel idea and i was told somthing like the Lanz Bulldog tractors you can run anything with a flash point in them vegtable oil,turps,whisky....mind you all with varing rates of sucsess frommy understanding like a diesel with a spark plug.
And them hybred cars my gawd their ugly and not to mention slow...and i thoughtmy sunny was all of the above.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

I just thought of something, the reason why the Japanses car makers don't come up with very many ideas for inventing technologies for varying weather climates and rugged terain is because Japan is crowded and there is no need for the invention of more efficient V8s for towing on an Albertan farm, or optimized handling for carving throught the alps because the things that Japan comes up with like hybrids and VORTEC engines are for fuel efficiency and compactness for Tokyo and other large citys. there are of course places to drive fast and things that need towing but the most important thing is in-city transportation.

i hope i'm merely bringing this point to mind for everyone and not thinking of it origionally, because that would make me a genious:D

[Batmobile_Turbo]

With the development of valves opened by solenoids and other technologies, I really begin to question the idea of the internal combustion engine itself. The thing is, engines used to day still operate on the same principles as Nick Otto's original 4-stroke. Sure, there have been improvements, but everything else in the world sure has come a lot farther over the past 100+ years...

It kinda makes you wonder what a car would be if it were conceived and produced for the first time nowadays. I certainly don't think it would use an archaic ol' internal combustion engine. :)

Anyway, applicable hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner...
as for the fuel cell cars, it would be good to reuse the hydrogen in the water that those cars produce but they can't so far, I think that fuel cells are a little farther off than around the corner but still close.
I don't think that internal combustion is really that archaic, there are things that haven't even been thought up or applied to do with internal combustion. I sort of feel that a four stroke internal-combustion is a bit archaic though, wankel rotarys are much more futuristic,also deisels because you can use a fuel not made from oil. hmm maybe a rotary deisel;)

[Egg Nog]

as for the fuel cell cars, it would be good to reuse the hydrogen in the water that those cars produce but they can't so far, I think that fuel cells are a little farther off than around the corner but still close.
I don't think that internal combustion is really that archaic, there are things that haven't even been thought up or applied to do with internal combustion. I sort of feel that a four stroke internal-combustion is a bit archaic though, wankel rotarys are much more futuristic,also deisels because you can use a fuel not made from oil. hmm maybe a rotary deisel;)

Well, the thing is, if we're trying ot find advancements, the rotary isn't any more of a success than pistons have ever been. Once all is said, we're still just burning a bunch of refined stuff that we found in the ground. The system itself is ancient.

I really like the idea of Biodiesel and all of the other techs, but we should be supporting hytdrogen more than anything else. For now, the real issue that needs to be addressed is how to produce it in a "green" way in large quantities.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

Well, the thing is, if we're trying ot find advancements, the rotary isn't any more of a success than pistons have ever been. Once all is said, we're still just burning a bunch of refined stuff that we found in the ground. The system itself is ancient.

I really like the idea of Biodiesel and all of the other techs, but we should be supporting hytdrogen more than anything else. For now, the real issue that needs to be addressed is how to produce it in a "green" way in large quantities.
what it all comes down to is the huge oil industry, people don't want to make the change because it would put millions out of jobs. I think if they put all the oil money into converting gas stations into hydrogen stations and the car companys started to make hydrogen cars, then hydrogen cars would be even closer then ten years from now which is he projected time. but people want money instead of world improvement.

[Matra et Alpine]

...put all the oil money into converting gas stations into hydrogen stations and the car companys started to make hydrogen cars, then hydrogen cars would be even closer then ten years from now which is he projected time. but people want money instead of world improvement.
I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Think, today, do you want a HYDROGEN tank at the end of your road knowing that if it went up it would take out a few blocks. It's MUCH more volatile than petrol or diesel !!

The manufacturers ( and politicians ) will have an uphill struggle getting the man in the street to accept the safety of hydrogen whilst the memory of the Hindenburg exists. Not many decades to go now :)

( for the 'youngsters' - it was 1937 New Jersey and a Hydrogen filled airship.
Burst into flames and total destruction - http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-lunkwiin/lz/movie/hinden.mpeg
This ended hydrogen dirigibles. Don't panic -- the one above you at your NFL game is now HELIUM filled :) )

[crisis]

I asked about the semi Diesel idea and i was told somthing like the Lanz Bulldog tractors you can run anything with a flash point in them vegtable oil,turps,whisky
I' ll rmember that when petrol reaches $35 a litre.

[crisis]

I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Just the thought of carefully reversing into a park, the bumper gently kisses the parking meter behind and you and then.......BANG!, you explode into an orange ball of flame. Oh the humanity!

[Batmobile_Turbo]

I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Think, today, do you want a HYDROGEN tank at the end of your road knowing that if it went up it would take out a few blocks. It's MUCH more volatile than petrol or diesel !!

The manufacturers ( and politicians ) will have an uphill struggle getting the man in the street to accept the safety of hydrogen whilst the memory of the Hindenburg exists. Not many decades to go now :)

( for the 'youngsters' - it was 1937 New Jersey and a Hydrogen filled airship.
Burst into flames and total destruction - http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-lunkwiin/lz/movie/hinden.mpeg
This ended hydrogen dirigibles. Don't panic -- the one above you at your NFL game is now HELIUM filled :) )
i think they use liquid hydrogen though, it it just as volitile? also, i didn't know that the hindenburg was in New Jersey, I thought it was a Nazi airship that exploded in Germany :confused: :confused:

[Matra et Alpine]

Just the thought of carefully reversing into a park, the bumper gently kisses the parking meter behind and you and then.......BANG!, you explode into an orange ball of flame. Oh the humanity!
Yep and that would be one less woman we could invite to the UCP forum :)
Oh and before the PC brigade start, EVERY car we've owned my wife has dinged a wing/bumper. She got all four corners on the company car one year. She doesn't even bother to ask if she can drive the A610 :)

[Matra et Alpine]

i think they use liquid hydrogen though, it it just as volitile? also, i didn't know that the hindenburg was in New Jersey, I thought it was a Nazi airship that exploded in Germany :confused: :confused:
First the hydrogen is kept at high pressure and becomes gaseous at the injection nozzle as it expands.
Breach the tank and it expands VERY quickly. Pressures are MUCH higher than required for LPG. Have you seen/lifted and LPG tank for a dual-fuel car ? My mates Range Rover tank takes two to lift !!
I think cars will have to be designed to use the monocoque/chassis as the storage vessel. But weight could be an issue.

The Hindenburg was the pride of Nazi Germany and until then the airships had excellent safety record. It was coming into land at Lakehurst (spelling?) in New Jersey when it exploded, killing all on board and a number of people below waiting to tether it on 'landing' having just flown the Atlantic. There's a film of the crash and also a 'live' radio broadcast of the accident. It ended the airship as a viable transport almost immediately. Many reasons from static to sabotage have been put forward as the reason over the years.

[crisis]

Yep and that would be one less woman we could invite to the UCP forum :)
Oh and before the PC brigade start, EVERY car we've owned my wife has dinged a wing/bumper. She got all four corners on the company car one year. She doesn't even bother to ask if she can drive the A610 :)
Well my missus took about 3mm off the rims of the new alloys I put on my Camry ( I deserved it really ) a couple of years ago. I put em on Friday and she butchered them Saturday. Apparently the road wasnt designed properly. She then drove my SV8 with a flat front tyre destroyng it but luckily not the wheel. $270 for a new tyre. She has grazed every flare on my 80 series putting it into the car port. She pretty well avoids asking to drive MY SV8 anymore. Its ok , she doesnt know this forum exists.

[Egg Nog]

Matra et Alpine, the apperent "safety issues" that most people list regarding hydrogen are blown way out of proportion. BMW has done testing with their fleet of 760iH airport taxis, including firing high-impact charges at the tanks themselves. Obviously, with government regulations and such a safety-concerned public, these issues already have been (or will be) addressed.

Hydrogen Facts: http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid536.php (From the Rocky Mountain Institute)

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra et Alpine, the apperent "safety issues" that most people list regarding hydrogen are blown way out of proportion. BMW has done testing with their fleet of 760iH airport taxis, including firing high-impact charges at the tanks themselves. Obviously, with government regulations and such a safety-concerned public, these issues already have been (or will be) addressed.

Hydrogen Facts: http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid536.php (From the Rocky Mountain Institute)This is the kind of publicity I was citing when the manufactiurers and interested parties have to convince us of the safety. Amongst lots of valid comments ( the burn comparison with hydrocarbons for exampe ) there are some real manipulation.
The best example is their 'take' on the Hindenburg "myth".
There's no mention of the belief that a leak in one of the vessels caused a build-up beetween the vessels and the outer skin. It is NOT known what caused the ignition and static is only ONE of the options proposed. Notice that they do NOT mention the hydrogen/air mixture building up as that would go against allaying peoples fears - it could happen in my car !!.
The gas tank explosino in the car and saying it's as safe is another mis-truth.
It's actually wquite hard to make petrol burn. The dropped match in movies won't take light as it always does ! Most often it is quenched !!
But hydrogen NATURALLY forms an explosive mix in air as it is naturally gaseous.
I loved the 'cars are designed to prevent hydrogne being trapped' angle. So in the middle of winter ( or summer ) how do you expect to get the passenger compartment to a decent temparature. Having open air vents works in a prototype and early products where compromises are acceptable. But in a car 10 years old with the heater not working efficiently will Mr and Mrs Smith put some tape over that hole where the draft is coming from - YEP :)
Puncture a fuel tank and you pour fuel on the road at a farily low rate, pucture it above the fule level and NOTHING happens. If a high-pressure vessel is damaged, cracked or joints damaged then gas outflows under enourmous pressure and can produce a JET of directed flame.
And it's hard to stop it ignitiing being hyrdogen !!
I'm not anti Hydrogen and I can't wait, I was only pointing out that it is inherently UNSAFE and that we will be "educated" to accept those risks.
Not being morbid, but how many of the big manufacturers and governments will be in court in the US when the first hydrogen tank rupture kills someone in a car crash. The jury will be shown the horrors of hydrogen by the prosecution. Guess what . . I think we'll see the biggest payout in history.
Course, the cynics (moi?) will point out that's why the rest of the world will have them long before the US :)