Micheal Park Crash Pics

[Mustang]

There will be a few more pics in a min...

markko was just sat behind the car weaping whilst he medics were trying to help "beef"

[Cotterik]

wow.. it crushed the entire side of the car that he was in.. I feel for markko martin aswell.. he will feel like it was his fault :(

[Nogger]

omg. horrible.

[jorismo]

OMG! That's really horrible... I don't think anyone would walk alive out of that car. I was just wondering how Markko Martin feels know. He must feel sow guilty :(

[Mustang]

it makes you wonder how solbers and mills survived that crash in germany last year and how matthew wilson and his nav survived there crash on the astra stages

[forza_autodelta]

this thread is insane...this man is dead , how can you post pics on the same day :(Poor man

[Matra et Alpine]

Not wishing to be too morbid :( but in this accident it's clear that the ONLY thing the car did in coming to a stop was hitting the tree completeley side on. No roll, not bouncing no other impact or movement to disspiate the energy in the speed.

So ALL of the energy was stopped by the tree. Which being a tree doesnt' move very much. So then the car must give - whcih it has - and none of it is slowly reduced. So the occupants then carry all the momentum.

Sadly rallying will always have these 'unlucky' accidents where nothing else reduces the energy to save the occupants the worst injuries. It's the way of the sport.

I'm sure I speak for all in that all our thoughts are with the family and friends.

[orne]

People usually have a tendency to think the worst accidents are big rolls, but these accidents are much worse, like Matra said, the tree absorbs all that momentum, more than 1300kgs at more than 100 kph...

Now imagine how would a normal road car be deformed with a crash like that.

This is a sad and horrible day for rallying, if I remember correctly, the last fatal crash in the WRC was in 1986.

[Mustang]

Not since Corsica 1986 and Australia 1993 has the WRC experienced a fatality

unfortunately there seems to of been another too

[Mustang]

here is the toivonen crash :(

http://www.thruxton.f9.co.uk/pics/henri/images/lancia/htoivonen_37.jpg

[Mustang]

apparently markko has said he will never get behind the wheel of a rally car again :(

this truely is a sad sad day :(

[Matra et Alpine]

apparently markko has said he will never get behind the wheel of a rally car again :(
Can understand that :(
There is a VERY close bond between driver and co-driver.
I woudl liek to think he will be able to come back once the period of grief has passed.

PS: I've video of Toivonens, PM me.

[Mustang]

you sent it me on msn a while ago

and yeah i would like to see markko racing again. last year on GB he was breath-takeing his drive on there i will never forget, the way he took that hairpin...

even if he only does a few drives now and then as soon as he manages to start feeling better i would like him driving again... maybee Dakar or something

[6'bore]

My thoughts are with his family.

[orne]

I think he'll at least take a year off... Now coming back depends on many things, usually this "need for speed" takes over and makes the driver come back but perhaps with another mindset.

Andrea Aghini, for example, lost his co-driver in an accident 2 or 3 years ago and has been rallying since last year, but this depends on the driver and there's really no point in speculating now.

[6'bore]

I think he'll at least take a year off... Now coming back depends on many things, usually this "need for speed" takes over and makes the driver come back but perhaps with another mindset.

Andrea Aghini, for example, lost his co-driver in an accident 2 or 3 years ago and has been rallying since last year, but this depends on the driver and there's really no point in speculating now.

Motor racing drivers don't have a need for speed. Once they have had it. it becomes a normality. Hence why most retired racers don't have particularly exciting cars. I.e. Damon Hill.

[Jack_Bauer]

even if he only does a few drives now and then as soon as he manages to start feeling better i would like him driving again... maybee Dakar or something

I wouldn't have thought the Dakar would be a logical step for him after this. The Dakar tends to have a much higher injury/fatality rate than WRC. :(

I think everyone would understand if he decided not to return at all, I can't even imagine the guilt he must be feeling at the moment. :(


Hence why most retired racers don't have particularly exciting cars. I.e. Damon Hill.

What cars does Damon Hill drive, just out of interest? I know that he bought one of the original 2.5l Noble M12s after testing driving one for a magazine when they first came out, and I remember hearing that he upgraded to the 3.0l model at least once. Pretty exciting cars if you ask me!

[orne]

Motor racing drivers don't have a need for speed. Once they have had it. it becomes a normality. Hence why most retired racers don't have particularly exciting cars. I.e. Damon Hill.

Of course they don't take their need for speed to the normal roads since it's way more unpredictable and unnecessary especially after you "discharge" that need elsewhere.

Retired racers are of course older and like other people, tend to calm down with age(Tiff Needell seems to get crazier with age).

[UCR]

Very sad, just makes you think.

Its unlikely but my brother had a crash today while racing, and the same thing could have happend to him. :(

r-i-p

[henk4]

these sort of accidents always invoke ambiguous emotions with me. The loss of life is the ultimate loss one can suffer and you feel compassion with his next of kin. On the other hand we have seen numerous very close calls being televised so everbody is aware of the inherent dangers and when things go terribly wrong that should be accepted. Rallying does not have the large run-off zones of a closed race track, and is therefore even more vulnerable. Every participant accepts those risks and and the closeness of natural obstacles along the track is seen as something attractive, both for the drivers AND the public.

[Mustang]

Hent the one thing that really struck me was the lack of marshals

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=129949

not one of these guys is a marshal and there are atleast 2 other competative wrc cars there which means atleast a 4 minute gap until they got there, there is no way in hel that markko would of been able to do anything the help Micheal Park, which also means that the following wrc cars would be going flat out when they reached this point and look where the pug is... halfway across the road :o

To be honest id like to see wrc GB suspended from the WRC callender untill they sort the damn thing out it has really sucked a huge amount of cock these last few years with basically no speccies last year as prices were waaaaaaaay to high and when you did pay they kept you enclosed in spectator pens where you could hardly see anything.

Just think.. if there werent any speccies there markko would of been on his own for what... 2 minutes till the next car arrived and basically not have a clue what to do.

When the rescue cars did finally get there they were a landrover and a LDV van if they were at the start of the stage thats what another 7 or 8 minutes till they oculd reach the car... so were now abou 12 minutes into the crash rite... im sure they could of had an air rescue helicopter out thereor atleast on the way in that time..


WRC GB has got to be one of the poorest events on the callender and is a real dissapointment to be honest

EDIT: taking a second look you can see that the mitsu is still moving in the pic and its a Citroen driver slowing him down... where were the marshals, where was anyone else to help them...

The other thing that i just remembered was that when cars had passed the accident they carried on at full wrc pace even though the stage had been stopped... WTF!

[netburner]

They went on because they didn't know the stage is stopped! We had the same thing here in Germany after the crash of Solberg last year. Duval was the first driver after the crash, slows down to pass it and then goes on in full speed, because nobody called him to ay the stage is stopped.


But as you said: there aren't marshals, why? What are they doing if they are anywhere near that???

It's obvious, that the FIA is working in two different kinds:
1.) here in Germany: everything must be right, there must be 150000 marshals at every corner and safetypoints for spectators 1 kilometer away from the road.... why? because we have the rally for only 4 years now and want to leave it in the calender for the next few years

2.) in GB and some other countries: only some marshals standing around somewhere, spectators as near to the stage as possible... why? because these countries have the worldchampionship rallys since the world was built and there is no matter of changing something...

well, we have seen, that there is a matter of changing something, sadly we had to loose Michael to see it...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It doesn't seem like such a bad crash, Ther have been much worse where people survived, but My Heart goes out to all those involved.

Must ben horrible living with the fact you've killed one of your Best Mates :(

[Cotterik]

It doesn't seem like such a bad crash, Ther have been much worse where people survived, but My Heart goes out to all those involved.

Must ben horrible living with the fact you've killed one of your Best Mates :(

on the whole it wasnt, but look at the photos the car hurtled into the tree in the weakest spot on the roll cage right on the door next to park, penetrating the bodywork deeply and straight into park himself. Instant death.. and a tragedy :(

[greg.harvey]

Very sad.

As soon as I heard I said it must've been a freak accident. Rally cars are immensely tough. For me the sport really couldn't be any safer than it is, being what it is, and tragic accidents are inevitable.

My heart goes out to Markko Martin. He must be destroyed. I'm not surprised he's saying he'll never do WRC again.

Just a quick note on Mustang's comments re: spectators. I agree there has to be a middle ground and spectators shouldn't be in "pens", but at the same time I strongly disagree with the scenes you see at some of the southern European rallies with spectators practically standing on the track. The drivers hate it too. They are trying to race flat out and are constantly trying to mask the fear of what will happen if the hit a stupid spectator.

Though to be fair, the English crowd doesn't tend to do that sort of thing. I remember going to Clumber Park and being able to roam everywhere, with the marshals just making sure you didn't stand anywhere really dumb or cross the track at an unsafe time.

[Matra et Alpine]

Mustang, I've not seen any reports yet.

Do you have any info that there were no marshals ?

In this situation a stage marshals FIRST job is to ensure there is no risk of subsequent damage. So that is checking the car is "safe" and THEN getting as far up stage as possible to wave down followign cars. If they were in that car then they only put their own life at riska nd those following. I'd liek to know more about the events and actions by those before proceeding with speculation.

Long stages can't afford to marshal every corner and so marshal coverage is "spread out" a little more. On club events it's even MORE so !!

Rallyiing can never provide the level of support to prevent these tragedies. It would require a trained paramedic within spread 30seconds along the whoel length of a stage :( Looking at the impact, I'd say this was instantaneous. The shock on the brain and the spinal column would have been traumatic :( )

[orne]

(...)

Just a quick note on Mustang's comments re: spectators. I agree there has to be a middle ground and spectators shouldn't be in "pens", but at the same time I strongly disagree with the scenes you see at some of the southern European rallies with spectators practically standing on the track. The drivers hate it too. They are trying to race flat out and are constantly trying to mask the fear of what will happen if the hit a stupid spectator.

(...)

That's very rare these days.

About the marshalls, in this particular case, anything they could do would make things worse for Michael since he coulndn't be taken off the car without an emergency vehicle with equipment to take off the door, still, there should be have marshalls nearby.

I also believe the death was instantaneous, just look at the size of the tree, if it was bigger, there would be more space to contain that energy.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

....Proving Conclusively why Open Top Based cars should not be allowed in WRC.

[Matra et Alpine]

....Proving Conclusively why Open Top Based cars should not be allowed in WRC.
This was widely debated at the time of the CC development.

The ability for a WRC to survive incidents is based on the ROLL CAGE which is an integral part of a WRC car. It' snot just a bolt or weld-on bit.

How the cage folded will be part of the investigation and may lead to an update of the requirements. BUT this is a quite narrow tree but stable and strong enough not to give. So ALL the energy in the vehicle is concentrated in that one point on the side of the vehicle. Look how much it compressed the bottom sill - traditionally one of the STRONGEST parts of every vehicle.

A tin top would have present very little additional protection (IMO)

Also, at those kinds of speeds even if it HAD been stronger it would have taken a miracle to survive the impact :(

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I Guess it was just a set of freak circumstances which allowed this to happen.

The Tree is still standing, it's just a shame that Park isn't :(

[motorsportnerd]

Tragic day for the WRC. Of course our thoughts are with Michael Park's family.
The last death of a front line driver or co-driver in WRC was in the 1993 Rally of Australia (maybe there have been drivers/co-drivers towards the rear of the field who died - I don't remember). Possum Borne's Subaru went off the road into some solid trees and co-driver Roger Freeth was killed instantly. There were a lot of similarities in that crash with this one. Unfortunately, trees don't move, and the roll cage and side structure of a rally car can only be so strong. After Freeth was killed, Bourne decided to keep driving - declaring that it was what Freeth would want him to do. He returned to competition in the very next round of the Asia-Pacific championship which he was leading at the time of the accident. Bourne went on to win the 1993 Asia-Pacific series and dedicated his victory to Freeth.
It is too soon to know, but maybe Martin will decide to keep driving. It's probably what Park would want him to do. Certainly, while Martin will understandably feel quilty, it was just an accident.
It is unfortunate that Bourne is no longer with us following a tragic road accident in 2003 - he would probably have been the best person to help Martin though the aftermath.

[Mustang]

Mustang, I've not seen any reports yet.

Do you have any info that there were no marshals ?

)


matra matra i thought after all your time in rallying you would know that marshals generally wear either orange or yellow flurescent bibs and yet on those pics even when the emergence cars are there no bibs and i dont think that any marshals that were there would go " ride chaps bibs off before we do anything" so you...

[Mustang]

If you watch the video youll see that Duval should of got a schlap afer he got in, there were people standing on the side of the road for a good 200 meters before the crash and he hardly slowed down when he got there he nearly hit the mitsu of Harri Rovenperra


Here is the video

http://zone.ee/wrc05/beef-inmemorian-k2-zone.avi

and here are the english subtitles for the Estonian parts

http://www.hot.ee/martinkivi/beef-inmemorian-k2-zone.sub

[Matra et Alpine]

matra matra i thought after all your time in rallying you would know that marshals generally wear either orange or yellow flurescent bibs and yet on those pics even when the emergence cars are there no bibs and i dont think that any marshals that were there would go " ride chaps bibs off before we do anything" so you...
ahem, and why would the first shots show ANY marshals if they were already positioned EARLIER on the stage as they SHOUDL BE :D
AND by the time the course cars are there the marshals should be away from it as they don't have a role anymore.
HENCE why I asked :D

[Mustang]

ok mthen check the video posted above, there are videos of when the oug hits, when a mitsu arrives and when a citroen arrives, thats a good 4 min interval, you telling me that there souldnt of been a marshal in one of those pics ?

The really worrying thing is that i was due to be marshaling on one of the margam stages this year think it was stage 1 not 2 though...

[Mustang]

ok that video posted doesnt show how much of a wanker duval really is rovenperra was THE only person IMO who did anything to help on the incident :(

[Matra et Alpine]

ok mthen check the video posted above, there are videos of when the oug hits, when a mitsu arrives and when a citroen arrives, thats a good 4 min interval, you telling me that there souldnt of been a marshal in one of those pics ?

The really worrying thing is that i was due to be marshaling on one of the margam stages this year think it was stage 1 not 2 though...
In the PICS for sure I can picture where marshals SHOULD be for that incident. and none fo them are necessily near the car at that time.

But you mention the vid which gives extra information .........

hey that's cheating, your comments were based on that you DID have more informatino that I was sayign we needed to wait for before making assumptions.

I'm off to watch the "witheld evidence" :(

[Mustang]

lol i only downloaded it this morning as i was posting the pic so technically i did post it before i had the information so i guess i was rite :)

[turbo32]

On most top level rallies these days they have devices in the car that as soon as an accident has occured the driver/co-driver hits a ralitrak button in the car that sends a GPS signal and alerts people back at HQ that there is a problem and scrambles relevant medical crews/Doctors and Air Ambulance with the precise map reference point of where the incident has occured

[Mustang]

now your the kind of new member we like :)

[orne]

Nope, no marshalls there... Only spectators.

Judging by the tire marks there, seems like Markko hit the apex too early and too quick :(

[johnnyperl]

do they still not wear a HANS in WRC? i know it wouldnt have helped in a side-on collision, just curious...

a driver and navigator were killed on a national rallye here in Oregon on the first stage when their car hit a tree head on (as far as i know) on the first stage.

[Mustang]

they made hans manditory at the beginning of this year

[Matra et Alpine]

What I DID notice is that neither of them chose to have seats with wings thus relying on the HANS only to limit head movement.

Sadly I'm still of the opinion from the damage that no amount of restraint would have helped or stronger car. It needed something to absorb the energy and slow the contents down more smoothly over a longer period of time :(

[orne]

What I DID notice is that neither of them chose to have seats with wings thus relying on the HANS only to limit head movement.

Sadly I'm still of the opinion from the damage that no amount of restraint would have helped or stronger car. It needed something to absorb the energy and slow the contents down more smoothly over a longer period of time :(


I totally agree, hitting that tree at that angle is just impossible, only if they put something between the tree and the road, but then there's so many trees in those stages... :|

[Rockefella]

do they still not wear a HANS in WRC? i know it wouldnt have helped in a side-on collision, just curious...

a driver and navigator were killed on a national rallye here in Oregon on the first stage when their car hit a tree head on (as far as i know) on the first stage.
Yeah, Mark Lovell and his navigator... he was a 3x champion in the USA I think.

[crisis]

Note the difference in run off areas.
As tragic as this is I cant understand how more people arent killed given the total disregard for safet compared to circuit racing. I guess it goes with the sport but could you imagine trees on the side of a circuit and people standing on the side of track with no barriers?

[Matra et Alpine]

You don't go as close to the limit in a rally stage as you do on a track.

( Unless you're a local and in that case know the stage liek the back of your hand. I've seen guys in the Scottish Trossachs rally book faster times in Mk2 Escorts than the works Quattros :) All down to "local knowledge" :) )

Because the driver is getting just one chance to go over a route then you can't get the car as close to the limit/ It's why I dont' liek stages being re-run for the 'spectators and TV' that modern WRC takes :(

[Matra et Alpine]

(Reuters)

After co-driver Michael Park's tragic death on Sunday, the spotlight has focused on safety within the sport. An inquiry has been initiated, but we take a look at the experts' opinions on the inherent danger in Rally racing.

World championship rallying is a sport of evident danger, with cars racing through forests and along icy mountain roads edged by precipices.

While the death of Peugeot co-driver Michael Park in Sunday's Rally of Britain will shine a more intense spotlight on safety, organisers can point out just how rare such tragic accidents have become.

"We set out 10 years ago to improve safety for competitors and spectators. We've not seen a driver killed for 20 years almost, " rally supremo and former champion co-driver David Richards told Monday's Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"We're trying to make it safer all the time but motorsport is dangerous."

New Zealander Rodger Freeth, whose Subaru rolled in the 1993 Rally of Australia, was the last co-driver to die in a world championship event.

Before that, Finland's Henri Toivonen was killed with U.S. co-driver Sergio Cresto when their Lancia plunged into a ravine and caught fire at the 1986 Corsica Rally.

Italian Attilio Bettega was killed in the same event the year before.

The powerful 'Group B' cars were banned after Toivonen's accident and important safety measures introduced, including the use of HANS head and neck restraints this season.

Drivers and co-drivers have had massive impacts and emerged relatively unscathed in recent years.

Norwegian Petter Solberg and British co-driver Phil Mills hit a concrete block, designed to resist tanks, at around 160kph in Germany last year. The Subaru flipped and smashed into another block but both walked away from the wreckage.

SIDE IMPACT

Although details of the accident that killed Park remain sketchy, it is known that the car driven by Estonian Markko Martin went off the road at speed and hit a tree on the passenger side.

Peugeot boss Jean-Pierre Nicolas said Park died instantly. Despite all the safety advances, that is the kind of crash -- a lateral collision with an immovable object -- that all drivers dread.

The side is the weakest part of the car and even a roll cage using metres of steel struts and cross members can offer little real protection.

"Short of building a Chieftain tank, there is no real solution to this problem," said Briton Nicky Grist, a championship-winning co-driver with Colin McRae.

"The side is the most vulnerable part of any car, whether it's a road car or a rally car," he told the Guardian newspaper.

"When you are sliding towards a tree at that speed, there's little you can do."

Grist, who has had several lucky escapes with McRae over the years including one in Corsica in 2000 when their Ford landed upside down in a ravine, felt it was not really a question of co-driver safety.

"It could just as easily have happened to the driver, had it been a right rather than a left-hand bend," he said. "It's just a horrible twist of fate.

"You could have that accident 200 times, but if you hit it in the wrong place on the 201st time, then you will get hurt."

[orne]

(...)

"You could have that accident 200 times, but if you hit it in the wrong place on the 201st time, then you will get hurt."

A few more centimeters to the rear or front and it'd have been another harmless accident.

[sunk]

Why arn't airbags used in rally cars. Sure they add wt. but if a man can save his life with them, then why not.....

[Mustang]

......

[Matra et Alpine]

Why arn't airbags used in rally cars. Sure they add wt. but if a man can save his life with them, then why not.....
because at every yump or wheel hook in a ditch it would fire :(

Dont' think I'd be too happy with an airbag filling my vision doing 110Mph alogn a Finnish straight in the forests !!!!!!!

[Jack_Bauer]

Plus the whole point of the HANS device is to stabilise the head under any impact, stopping it being thrown forward and hitting the wheel/dash. There shouldn't really be much need for airbags. :)

I guess there could be an argument for side impact/curtain style airbags, but they certainly wouldn't give any more protection than a full roll cage.

[magracer]

You don't go as close to the limit in a rally stage as you do on a track:(

I have to differ... Anyone who has watched in car video (or outside for that matter) of a WRC stage can see they are going 100% given the circumstances. I would estimate at least one WRC car is total loss per event (more if McRae is competing :D), which means they must be going pretty damn fast (or they are lame drivers (NOT!)).

Have to agree about the freak nature of this accident. From the cars condition after the accident, Solberg's in Germany comes to my mind as potentially "worse". My thoughts are with his friends and family.

[Matra et Alpine]

I have to differ... Anyone who has watched in car video (or outside for that matter) of a WRC stage can see they are going 100% given the circumstances. I would estimate at least one WRC car is total loss per event (more if McRae is competing :D), which means they must be going pretty damn fast (or they are lame drivers (NOT!)).
You are confusing going fast and going as fast as it may be possible to go.

The times and speeds a rally driver can attain on a closed practices stages are invariably 5 mph faster than in an open stage.

Track racing allows the driver the opportunity every 1'30" to 2 minutes to come to the SAME corner and try jsut a lttle harder, braking later, turning in sharper apexing later accelerating ealrier. THUS they eahc lap get a little faster until they reach the limit - of the car and the driver.

A rally driver gets ONE change to pick a line and get round a corner.
They do NOT have the chance to go over it time and again and improve times.

EXCEPT in closed stage testing where as stated they manage faster BECAUSE they get multiple chances.

You are right in them putting in 100% effort but by virtue of it being a rally and not a race they very seldom get 100% of the potential speed.

PS: Getting over the limit isn't confined to rallying either. Count the off's next time you go to a live track race :) It's just as was shown earlier that on a track it's "safer" byt virtue of having man-made run-offs and kitty-litter and tyre to absorb energy before hard things.

[magracer]

Given your expertise in rallying (checked your bio) I'm not in a position to argue... :cool:

but, [QUOTE=magracer]...they are going 100% given the circumstances.QUOTE] being my main statement, all I´m saying is that they are effectively at the limit (not of the car or driver, but of all the conditions put together).

Mag

[forza_autodelta]

that's their job... RIP About the airbag , that's a ****ing idea :) lots of drivers are already complaining about the HANS system (Panizzy:"it's a real piece of shit"at the monte-carlo this year).As it's been already said , it's more dangerous than useful ...

[rallyslag]

RIP Beefy

[rallyslag]

i have just seen this on another forum
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/M3Rally/scanneditems453.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/M3Rally/scanneditems455.jpg

[Matra et Alpine]

not of the car or driver, but of all the conditions put together
Mag
Definately, Mag.
We had some crossed wires there, I was only comparing that a rally driver by virtue of it being a stage never puts the car OR HIM at 100%, they put the whole package at "100% and finish the stage" which is somewhat below 100% for most corners and a lot of straights with yumps.
There is definately NOT the option of being 100% on the CAR all the time as rallying doesn't have the fortune of knowing what the next 10 yards is going to be like :(

[andrewtaylor15]

I'm so mad at the roll cage designer - have a browse around on google and look at "open door service area shots" of the 307, all the cahe cross bars on the door are nowhere near the occupants, which is exactly where the car has deformed in the picture. I'm gutted

[adamfraser]

I can see what you mean.

http://www.peugeot.de/sport/img/img_der307wrc.jpg

[Wouter Melissen]

I'm so mad at the roll cage designer - have a browse around on google and look at "open door service area shots" of the 307, all the cahe cross bars on the door are nowhere near the occupants, which is exactly where the car has deformed in the picture. I'm gutted

How do you suggest the driver and co-driver can get in and out?

[Matra et Alpine]

I'm so mad at the roll cage designer - have a browse around on google and look at "open door service area shots" of the 307, all the cahe cross bars on the door are nowhere near the occupants, which is exactly where the car has deformed in the picture. I'm gutted
The door cross bars are where they are on all cars.

You have to be able to get in and out of rally cars through the normal doors and have to show you can get out unaided.

WHY are you @mad@ at the roll cage designer other than expecting them to do the impossible ?

See attached image - a grab from vid of the Scoobie ones.

[adamfraser]

Very true Wouter and Matra. It is not as if they have ejector seats andrew, so they need have to have space to get in and out. Refer to my cutaway pic too see what i mean

[andrewtaylor15]

I'm trying to find the pic I saw earlier, this cage is not good. I'm not saying they need loads of bars, I'm saying that the crosses are in the wrong place to protect the occupents, mainly because the doors are too big on this car - I hate the 307cc

[Wouter Melissen]

I'm trying to find the pic I saw earlier, this cage is not good. I'm not saying they need loads of bars, I'm saying that the crosses are in the wrong place to protect the occupents, mainly because the doors are too big on this car - I hate the 307cc

I'm pretty sure that the size of the roll cage is not dependent on the size of the doors. If you look at that cutaway drawing you can see the cage starting well within the door opening.

[andrewtaylor15]

I race a tin-top and I have perform morning gymnastics to get in and out! I've found a good pic how do I show it like you displayed the cut away?

[adamfraser]

It has to be under 800x600 or 600x800 for the in-lime imahes rule.

All you need to do is -

THE LINK TO THE IMAGE.jpg

Without the spaces of course

[Wouter Melissen]

It has to be under 800x600 or 600x800 for the in-lime imahes rule.

All you need to do is -

THE LINK TO THE IMAGE.jpg

Without the spaces of course

It's preferable that you use the Attachment system though. There you can upload all images up to 1 mb. It can be found under the additional options in the advanced reply menu.

[adamfraser]

Or you could do what Wouter said. It is alot easier, and alot better for people on Dial-Up. If you dont understand, send me a PM with a link to the image :)

[andrewtaylor15]

OK check these two out (attached)

[andrewtaylor15]

Which car would you rather be in?

[Matra et Alpine]

Which car would you rather be in?
it woudln't matter :(

It was a vertical edge. so WHERE the cross bars are doesn't make any difference.

Hitting a tree at 80mph compeltely side on with no other reduction in energy is NOT going to be stoped regardless.

You race tin-tops, what kind ? Oval ? circuit ??

[andrewtaylor15]

Yeah you're probably right, but I just think Markko looks really exposed in the 307CC compared to the Mikko in the scooby. Notice Mikko is behind the pillar in the scooby, whilst in the 307CC the pillar is miles behind the driver. The shorter cross bars in the scooby will MUCH stiffer too, but you're right in saying that not much is going to stop a tree at 80. I'd prefer to experience it in a scooby though! I race in the BRSCC fiesta championship, how about you?

[alan2]

RIP BEEF, looks like a massive impact, at least he went with a smile on his face doing something he loved, he was on the top of the sport and worked real hard to get there, for 99.9% of us its a dream, he got there, total respect for that..... If markko leaves the sport it would be a great loss for rallying but who could blame him, ( do u think that would be wot BEEF wanted "NO" ) Stay around markko.......

[andrewtaylor15]

My comment yesterday about the cage designer was perhaps a bit flippant and I appologise for that, I'm just upset about it.

I know it doesn't really matter about technical details for Parks now, but I think the FIA need to be taking action. Should the 307CC be allowed to run in the next rally? What's everybody's opinion on that?

I also don't like the current "there's nothing you can do about it" attitude. Remember in F1 when Ralf crashed at Monaco and the wishbone pierced the monocoque and cut his leg. They made that part of the car 4 times stronger afterwards!!!!! There are things that can be done, and David Lapworth seems to be pushing this at the moment - for that he should be supported!

I found a website yesterday which was bascially an online book of condolence for Parks. Each page had about 10 entries and there were 44 pages already!!!!! I think it's safe to say he was well liked!

Have a good day everybody, here's hoping for a safer future for rallying!

[henk4]

Well, in all honesty if you look at the pics of the CC and the Subaru the position of the vertical bar in the cage vis-a-vis the shoulder is complete different. In the CC this bar is way behind the driver, while in the Subaru the driver is setting almost next to it. Whether that makes a difference on impact I would not dare to say, but I would not be surprised if we see a new cage design in the CC pretty soon.

[Matra et Alpine]

Remeber the roof structure is there too.

But no matter WHAT is decided you cannot survive coming from 80mph to rest in 2 inches !!!

Look at what they do to "protect" a top fuel drag racer. You could not do that in rallying as one it woudl kill eveything but the very top of the sport and it woudl make it MORE dangerous - as the HANS has in part - as the driver loses soem flexibility - rally cars spend more time going sideways and a lot of the time will need to reverse.
Rally stages cannot be marhslled to the same degree as a track and so it is important that drivers and navs are able to get out of the car unaided and relatively quickly.

Yes it's a terrible loss but it IS a dangerous sport and the death rate is exceptionally low and the risks ARE well known in the industry.

For sure improvements shodul be looked at, but I 100% believe that nothing would have saved life in a case like this. That's the drawbakc of takign part in "dangerous sports" and part of teh buzz that makes it a driver challenge and containst the speeds. I'd hate to see the "volvo effect" taking hold :(

[FMC]

There will be a few more pics in a min...

markko was just sat behind the car weaping whilst he medics were trying to help "beef"

Can i ask where you got these? They are shots from WRC camerasof Duval and Rovanpers right? Thought these were resticted access etc..? If you have a way to view any wrc tv videos, i'd like to know how as i've always wanted to be able to look at in car videos. Thanks/

[roughcut]

gotta say i think its valid of mustang to put up the pics as soon as he had them,i was at the rally from the start and felt lost when such a great weekend ended in such a sad way,driving home from wales not knowing what happened only added to this,so when i saw the pics and the angle the car had hit at,its frightening!
so so sad
RIP micheal park.....
keep going markko martin in his honour

[Mustang]

FMC, the videos are hosted all over the internet, try that british rally stie i sent you..


Rough cut where are you from ? and markko is not competing in wrc japan, im guessing he wont really do much for the rest of the year, i think didier Auriol is replacing him for the time being

[roughcut]

[QUOTE=Mustang]FMC, the videos are hosted all over the internet, try that british rally stie i sent you..


Rough cut where are you from ?
bristol mate
carllson's the replacement driver and auriol (im a lancia nut so good to see him back) is piloting a 307 privately on the tour de course...but you probably knew that by now folks :)
got some great shots from the first two days of rally gb (galli was flying) and when i get my head round to it i will post em up for you all.
once again RIP micheal park

[Tomwheeler]

guys any news on the post mortem?
how did Beef actually die?

[Guest]

in the crash

[Tomwheeler]

was it a neck injury?

[Mustang]

your an idiot

he went from 80mph to 0mph in about 2 inches, his insides would of been mush and prob broken alot of bones

[Tomwheeler]

wasnt markko in the same car?

[UCR]

wasnt markko in the same car?
I wish you was.

[Mustang]

wasnt markko in the same car?

lol jim

he was but he wasnt in the side that got squashed into like 1/4 the size

[GALLAR]

Heart Felt Condolencies To Michaels Family And Friends.it Was A Black Day For The Rallying Community,and The Sport And Fans Will Take A Long Time To Come To Terms With The Sad Loss Of One Of The Sports Greats.we All Feel For Marko At This Time And Dont Blame Him For Wot Happened.rallying Is A Dangerous Sport But There Is No Guarding Against A Freak Accident

[TVR IS KING]

wow, someone is filled with unjustified hate.

[Mustang]

Heart Felt Condolencies To Michaels Family And Friends.it Was A Black Day For The Rallying Community,and The Sport And Fans Will Take A Long Time To Come To Terms With The Sad Loss Of One Of The Sports Greats.we All Feel For Marko At This Time And Dont Blame Him For Wot Happened.rallying Is A Dangerous Sport But There Is No Guarding Against A Freak Accident

whats with the caps ? :P

AND I AGREE WITH YPOU ON THE NMOST PART

[6'bore]

I wish you was.

LMFAO

[kumbo]

anyone have a vid footage of the acutal wrc tv footage of the accident?

[whiteballz]

sick man.

[Fitz_Snowy]

Are there any more pictures of the accident? I was on Margam and although i couldnt go phsycally near the accident, i was near enough to hear it all. RIP Beef.:(

[Mustang]

Ive not bothered looking for any more pics of it

[Fitz_Snowy]

where you get those 3 from?

[Mustang]

rallystuff.net

[kumbo]

If you watch the video youll see that Duval should of got a schlap afer he got in, there were people standing on the side of the road for a good 200 meters before the crash and he hardly slowed down when he got there he nearly hit the mitsu of Harri Rovenperra


Here is the video

http://zone.ee/wrc05/beef-inmemorian-k2-zone.avi

and here are the english subtitles for the Estonian parts

http://www.hot.ee/martinkivi/beef-inmemorian-k2-zone.sub


do you have an updated link of the crash vid?

[Zondaboy1]

man that sucks. thats really sad. it's a shame how motorsports are so dangerous. Matra, i'd like to see that chrash footage.
does anybody remember the WRX STI crash in germany last year when it hit that rock and just kept flipping? i saw that happen live on tv. it was gut wrenching but i'm happy both the driver and the navigator got out OK

[kumbo]

ttt. anyone still have any video footage?

[KonaGreen]

No. No one has footage, and if someone does I don't think that they'd post it out of respect to Mr. Park. The pics were bad enough.

[kingofthering]

ttt. anyone still have any video footage?
Why the hell do you want to see video footage of someone getting killed?

[Daz27]

Some sicko's like seein that kinda trash, explains why the faces of death series is so popular in europe... You would think that a member of this site especially would have more respect for a person who died persuing his love/dream... Obviously not that bozo. All I can say is Im disgusted for the lack of respect. RIP Beef.

[KonaGreen]

Good to have back up. Thanks Guys!

[Mustang]

one thing that i do have is a tribute for burns and a tribute for park respecitvly that were played at there funerals

very emotive

[The Swede]

There will be a few more pics in a min...

markko was just sat behind the car weaping whilst he medics were trying to help "beef"

Can't see the pictures

:mad:

[henk4]

Can't see the pictures

:mad:

you have to make a couple of posts first, before you can see the forum pics. (welcome to UCP)

[555SUBARUWRT]

I think this whole thread was a mistake, Its very disturbing to think that photos & video footage are being watched by people of a person getting killed,

I reckon that people in charge of this forum should delete it as soon as possible,

I`m a big Rally fan & found the whole incident very upsetting, hopefully there are others that agree with me,