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Egg Nog
12-26-2005, 08:31 PM
Do you guys think using borders is acceptable for the photo contests? To me it seems like just another form of digital editing to enhance the look of the image, and seems like an unfair advantage. The point of the photo contests is to directly compare all of the entries, so at least in my eyes this takes away from what the competitions are trying to get at.

What does everyone else think of this? I don't want to make it an issue, but I though I should bring it up to see how people feel about it.

PS - Pinin, I don't mean to single you out! :D - Your photos are excellent :). I just noticed your last few entries would work as good examples.

johnnynumfiv
12-26-2005, 08:37 PM
I don't think it should be allowed.

Pinin
12-26-2005, 08:46 PM
Well I'm not actually modifying the image I took am I? It's no different to cropping it, except I leave a black line around it, and I thought cropping was allowed..

johnnynumfiv
12-26-2005, 08:58 PM
The black lines weren't there when you took the picture right?

Pinin
12-26-2005, 09:04 PM
Surely you can see past that?

Sweeney921
12-26-2005, 09:09 PM
I don't think it should be allowed because, say, the entrant could be covering up a particularly unattractive part of a picture.

Pinin
12-26-2005, 09:16 PM
I don't think it should be allowed because, say, the entrant could be covering up a particularly unattractive part of a picture.
So you would have a problem with me entering this picture too?

johnnynumfiv
12-26-2005, 09:18 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with that picture because that is the real picture, if you went out and built a black box around the car, i'd be fine with that too, since it's in the real picture.

Pinin
12-26-2005, 09:25 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with that picture because that is the real picture, if you went out and built a black box around the car, i'd be fine with that too, since it's in the real picture.
The 355 pic that won the last comp didn't have a logo built next to the car... you must have a problem with that too?

johnnynumfiv
12-26-2005, 09:30 PM
So you are saying the black box is your water mark for your website?

Pinin
12-26-2005, 09:39 PM
No, I don't remember saying that.
But apparently you have a problem with someone cropping a picture, and/or putting a border around it in photoshop. But not with someone using photoshop to add a logo to their picture. What's the difference?

johnnynumfiv
12-26-2005, 09:44 PM
But you act like his logo enhances the picture, which it does not. The borders that you put in are meant to enhance the picture, with something that wasn't there are the time that you took it.

Pinin
12-26-2005, 09:56 PM
No, I was replying to your original post..

I wouldn't have a problem with that picture because that is the real picture, if you went out and built a black box around the car, i'd be fine with that too, since it's in the real picture.
You said you had a problem with me using photoshop to add something in, you didn't mention anything about enhancing the picture.


If lots of people have a problem with me "enhancing" my picture by cropping it/putting a border round it then I'll stop, it doesen't make any real difference to me. The reason I made the DB9 pic like I did was to keep the 4:3 format, I do this with any picture I crop.

Sweeney921
12-26-2005, 09:57 PM
So you would have a problem with me entering this picture too?
I'm going with the purist side on this one.

Guest
12-27-2005, 12:21 AM
No, I don't remember saying that.
But apparently you have a problem with someone cropping a picture, and/or putting a border around it in photoshop. But not with someone using photoshop to add a logo to their picture. What's the difference?
cropping isnt allowed though!

NuclearCrap
12-27-2005, 01:23 AM
I think an entry picture cannot be modify in any way after you snapped it. Fair enough. Adding border would just be like adding a frame. What would you rather have, a painting by itself or a painting with a frame?

drakkie
12-27-2005, 03:25 AM
i think it is about the picture itself. This only distracts.No digital editing is allowed, and according to the definition, this is part of this rule too. Discussion closed.Period.

Matra et Alpine
12-27-2005, 04:12 AM
I think borders should be permitted.

After all in reality there is already a "border" on every picture - the one provided by windows.

Now, for most folks it's a mucky grey with blue edge which WILL enhance some photos. Other photos it will look less appealing on and so for them the photographer should be permitted to add a border to isolate the image from the affects of the Windows/Mac window border. As the image size is limited then it's up to the photographer how much impact and clarity of the pic they want to give up to add that border.

Egg Nog
12-27-2005, 04:27 AM
i think it is about the picture itself. This only distracts.No digital editing is allowed, and according to the definition, this is part of this rule too. Discussion closed.Period.

I agree 100%. It's not technically fair for everyone unless the guidelines are followed.

Matra et Alpine
12-27-2005, 04:36 AM
I agree 100%. It's not technically fair for everyone unless the guidelines are followed.
True, but are the guidelines on border "fair" ?

Rules from a Photographic Society competition entry .....

1.4 Each print must be mounted. Unmounted prints will be disqualified.

Mounting a print is the digital border of the real world :D

And from an international competition run by the Royal Photographic Society ....

Unmounted Prints
Selected prints will be matted to fit a specific set of frames 20" x 24". The image size of submitted work should therefore not exceed 16" x 20" though the complete print, with borders can be up to 20" x 24".

Just a couple to demonstrate how competitions try to get fairness to avoid conflicts over whether a black or white surround makes best of a picture :D

Of course as ligting in a gallery can ALSO affect the perception ( and some artists DO specify lighting :) ) then it's all academic trying to recreate the best environs for an image. So KISS as IBM once said before it became politically incorrect :(

Lani Kai
12-27-2005, 04:47 AM
I don't see what the big fuss is. If you can make your photo seem more impressive by adding borders, then I say go for it. I think that is part of the art of photography.

Niko_Fx
12-27-2005, 06:39 AM
They shouldn't be allowed.

Rockefella
12-27-2005, 09:47 AM
My opinion:

Cropping is touchy. You guys HAVE to make a decision on whether or not you can crop images, rather than leaving that up for judgement.

Borders. Absolutely not.

Photoshop/Image enhancement. Absolutely not.

adamfraser
12-27-2005, 10:39 AM
I think Borders should be allowed, but thats all.

Just my $0.02

mcbrusen
12-27-2005, 04:33 PM
I used borders similar to pinin in this weeks entrance, and then i saw this discussion. I am on the "for" side in this issue, i think it should be allowed.

But anyways, please dont disqualify my picture from this competition, then i rather remove the borders or something. I added the borders because the image was originally in 800*533 format, and i wanted to take full advantage of the 800*600 requirement. I have not cropped the picture in any way.

EDIT: spelling ;)

Cotterik
12-27-2005, 06:18 PM
given my authority here I'd like to draw your attention to the rule i apply to the photography competitions:


the photograph must be the original upload and not edited in any way other than to resize

and its staying that way :) No borders unless i change my mind.

Pinin
12-27-2005, 08:35 PM
given my authority here I'd like to draw your attention to the rule i apply to the photography competitions:



and its staying that way :) No borders unless i change my mind.
Fair enough. The reason I include them is because the actual image (which is actually inside the borders) is still unedited. But like I said, it makes no real difference to me. :)

PerfAdv
12-28-2005, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Rules
• The proposed picture must be your own and not found on the net.
• Only the photographs taken the month in progress and the past month are accepted.
• Only one photograph per person and weekly contest allowed; you may not change your photograph once it has been entered.
• There are 5 days to submit your photograph, a poll will be created after 5 days for people to vote on.
• Your image must be a resolution of 800x600 or lower. If it is not, your picture will not be in the voting thread.
• Each photographer cannot vote for himself, they must vote for the others.
• Any users who enter and vote for themselves automatically recieve a 2 week penalty from the competition and all votes previously given to his/her photo are removed.
• The picture should be submitted with following information in the same order: the name of the car, where it was taken or at what event, the date, and the type of camera.

user name
Name of car
Where taken (or event)
date taken
Camera type & name

Are these the rules to follow?

It's understood that using any photo editing isn't allowed. However, it's not stated in these rules. Also, it is stated that a picture should be no bigger than 800x600 pixels of res. However, it doesn't state that a pic cannot be cropped. So, are we to maintain a 4:3 ratio when cropping or is the rule to not crop, period. Also, what's the rule on in-camera editing tools. I have a dozen or so built-in effects that might be otherwise considered photo editing.

2ndclasscitizen
12-28-2005, 01:43 AM
Also, what's the rule on in-camera editing tools. I have a dozen or so built-in effects that might be otherwise considered photo editing.
if its a pre-shot effect its fine, like if you can set your camera to take pics in b&w or sepia its fine. I believe someone with a Canon (Cotterik IIRC) has entered a photo using Canon's in camera colour isloation setting. However, if your camera's effects are after the shot has been taken, not allowed. My camera allows me to change colour, crop etc. after its been taken, so if i use these, the shots can't be entered

mcbrusen
12-28-2005, 02:08 AM
given my authority here I'd like to draw your attention to the rule i apply to the photography competitions:

Quote:
the photograph must be the original upload and not edited in any way other than to resize

and its staying that way :) No borders unless i change my mind.


Sorry for asking, but exactly where is this stated? Because i did read through the rules on the competition page before entering, and thats not writtten there.

Anyhow i just need a answer if im getting disqualified in this competition for using borders to fill up the maximum of 800*600? Please let me know so i can send you a version without the borders!

Thank you ;)

Matra et Alpine
12-28-2005, 05:46 AM
if its a pre-shot effect its fine, like if you can set your camera to take pics in b&w or sepia its fine. I believe someone with a Canon (Cotterik IIRC) has entered a photo using Canon's in camera colour isloation setting. However, if your camera's effects are after the shot has been taken, not allowed. My camera allows me to change colour, crop etc. after its been taken, so if i use these, the shots can't be entered
But a digital camera allows you to preview the effects of the effects, so how is tath different from mentally previewing it an dapplyign it wiht photoshop later ? The camera TAKES the image and then applies the effect in all cases :D
Just pointing out that it's a difficult and dangerous line to cross.
Automatic exposure is a form of effect-control the camera undertakes :D
Ohh, I remember when all these debates came up in the days of film and slide cameras !!! There's nothign new in what we're facing.

As Cotterik points out though, we have to "respect is authoritay".

Make the call on PRE and POST effects ????

man 430gt
12-28-2005, 06:03 AM
I don't think it should be allowed..

Cotterik
12-28-2005, 10:10 AM
Sorry for asking, but exactly where is this stated? Because i did read through the rules on the competition page before entering, and thats not writtten there.

Anyhow i just need a answer if im getting disqualified in this competition for using borders to fill up the maximum of 800*600? Please let me know so i can send you a version without the borders!

Thank you ;)


Are these the rules to follow?

It's understood that using any photo editing isn't allowed. However, it's not stated in these rules. Also, it is stated that a picture should be no bigger than 800x600 pixels of res. However, it doesn't state that a pic cannot be cropped. So, are we to maintain a 4:3 ratio when cropping or is the rule to not crop, period. Also, what's the rule on in-camera editing tools. I have a dozen or so built-in effects that might be otherwise considered photo editing.

you are both referring to the automotive competition, where regular users understand that you just dont edit the photos, just resize it to 800x600 and enter it. Thats the way its always been, a sort of mutual agreement. Nobody has ever tried to 'bend' the rules as such until now. So ive added it to the rules list just to confirm that its raw photography only. So that we have a level playing field. I'm sure you'll agree thats fair.

PerfAdv
12-28-2005, 11:47 AM
you are both referring to the automotive competition, where regular users understand that you just dont edit the photos, just resize it to 800x600 and enter it. Thats the way its always been, a sort of mutual agreement. Nobody has ever tried to 'bend' the rules as such until now. So ive added it to the rules list just to confirm that its raw photography only. So that we have a level playing field. I'm sure you'll agree thats fair.
I was mostly just unclear about the cropping. Keeping it simple is best. So, no borders then from the next comp onwards?

Cotterik
12-28-2005, 11:48 AM
officially, yes.

Rockefella
12-28-2005, 11:50 AM
'Rik, want me to write out a set of detailed rules?

Cotterik
12-28-2005, 12:00 PM
if you feel its necessary.

mcbrusen
12-28-2005, 05:18 PM
you are both referring to the automotive competition, where regular users understand that you just dont edit the photos, just resize it to 800x600 and enter it. Thats the way its always been, a sort of mutual agreement. Nobody has ever tried to 'bend' the rules as such until now. So ive added it to the rules list just to confirm that its raw photography only. So that we have a level playing field. I'm sure you'll agree thats fair.


Sure no problem! I havent been entering for more than 2 or 3 times, and didnt know borders were not allowed. But i have no problem following the rules!

But please tell me if you want me to re-enter this weeks photo without borders. If not i take it its ok for this time and i wont do it again :)

2ndclasscitizen
12-28-2005, 06:18 PM
But a digital camera allows you to preview the effects of the effects, so how is tath different from mentally previewing it an dapplyign it wiht photoshop later ?

yes, true, but that's also the same as taking the photo with one shutter/aperture speed, checking it, and then changing it if it doesn't turn out, its just the nature of digital cameras


The camera TAKES the image and then applies the effect in all cases :D
Just pointing out that it's a difficult and dangerous line to cross.
Automatic exposure is a form of effect-control the camera undertakes :D
Ohh, I remember when all these debates came up in the days of film and slide cameras !!! There's nothign new in what we're facing.

As Cotterik points out though, we have to "respect is authoritay".

Make the call on PRE and POST effects ????
not neccessairly, in some digital camera's, yes, the effects are added once the shot has been written, but some do it in the chip itself, so it is never written to memory with colour, etc. The thing is though, unless Cotterik or someone goes through and checks up on what capabilities every camera used has we won't know whether any effects added to photos are Pre or Post shot

my porsche
12-28-2005, 06:32 PM
yes, true, but that's also the same as taking the photo with one shutter/aperture speed, checking it, and then changing it if it doesn't turn out, its just the nature of digital cameras


not neccessairly, in some digital camera's, yes, the effects are added once the shot has been written, but some do it in the chip itself, so it is never written to memory with colour, etc. The thing is though, unless Cotterik or someone goes through and checks up on what capabilities every camera used has we won't know whether any effects added to photos are Pre or Post shot
i think black and white should be allowed post-photo (even though i do mine pre-shot since my camera has that capability) since the photo will look the same whether you ad it before or after, and it gives you the cahnce to see if it looks better in color or B&W

Rockefella
12-28-2005, 06:34 PM
i think black and white should be allowed post-photo (even though i do mine pre-shot since my camera has that capability) since the photo will look the same whether you ad it before or after, and it gives you the cahnce to see if it looks better in color or B&W
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree, seeing as it's editing outside of the camera. That's like fine-tuning the focus in photoshop and thinking, "well, if my hand was a bit more steady it'd look like this."

Cotterik
12-28-2005, 06:40 PM
Sure no problem! I havent been entering for more than 2 or 3 times, and didnt know borders were not allowed. But i have no problem following the rules!

But please tell me if you want me to re-enter this weeks photo without borders. If not i take it its ok for this time and i wont do it again :)

its ok for this week. Once the new comp starts though, we should all be aware of the rules stated.


not neccessairly, in some digital camera's, yes, the effects are added once the shot has been written, but some do it in the chip itself, so it is never written to memory with colour, etc. The thing is though, unless Cotterik or someone goes through and checks up on what capabilities every camera used has we won't know whether any effects added to photos are Pre or Post shot

I think that its a matter of trust, Ive never felt the need to check around to make sure nobodys using after-shot editing. After all, if you win with a raw photo then its 10 times more rewarding than if you win by photoshop editing right? I think every member who enters should keep that in mind but I'll keep an eye out anyway. There's never been any problems in the past.

my porsche
12-28-2005, 07:13 PM
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree, seeing as it's editing outside of the camera. That's like fine-tuning the focus in photoshop and thinking, "well, if my hand was a bit more steady it'd look like this."
no i mean post-shot ON THE CAMERA, should have specified

Matra et Alpine
12-29-2005, 03:22 AM
yes, true, but that's also the same as taking the photo with one shutter/aperture speed, checking it, and then changing it if it doesn't turn out, its just the nature of digital cameras


not neccessairly, in some digital camera's, yes, the effects are added once the shot has been written, but some do it in the chip itself
It isn't and can't be done in the imaging sensor chip which is where the "picture" is first taken :D

In "old" days it was why slides and prints ended up as seperate competitions in clubs. The print could be "post processed" with filters, exposure and borders :) A slide couldn't.

The thing is though, unless Cotterik or someone goes through and checks up on what capabilities every camera used has we won't know whether any effects added to photos are Pre or Post shot
That was the point.
With digital camera you can't tell which are applied and when.
And jsut because a camera HAS the feature doesnt' mean it was applied.
So I was reminding that because of that then post-processing is equally valid !!
But this started with my premise that borders have always been a recognised addition to print submissions for competitions.
WHAT IF the camera allowed to include borders and preview on screen BEFORE takign the pic ??

VtecMini
12-29-2005, 02:26 PM
In "old" days it was why slides and prints ended up as seperate competitions in clubs. The print could be "post processed" with filters, exposure and borders :) A slide couldn't.Sadly even that isn't the case any more with the advent of production of slides from digital shots... Micro Quiz in Nottingham do it for a quid a slide or so, depending on how you want it mounted.

Matra et Alpine
12-29-2005, 04:52 PM
Sadly even that isn't the case any more with the advent of production of slides from digital shots... Micro Quiz in Nottingham do it for a quid a slide or so, depending on how you want it mounted.
Taking slide images from other slides and prints was tried back then , there's a transparency adapter lens in the back of my photographic cupboard :)

You can usually spot the artefacts and variance that doing that introduces :D

VtecMini
12-29-2005, 05:22 PM
Taking slide images from other slides and prints was tried back then , there's a transparency adapter lens in the back of my photographic cupboard :)

You can usually spot the artefacts and variance that doing that introduces :DHeh heh, interesting! By that admission are we to assume you had a go at it too then? :)

Matra et Alpine
12-29-2005, 05:25 PM
Heh heh, interesting! By that admission are we to assume you had a go at it too then? :)
On the basis I never won anything substantial enough for anyone to hold a grudge THIS long then :cough: yes :cough:

Course it was for technical reasons, I woudl have preferred to take the landscape with Ektachrome but the camera was loaded with Kodachrome :)
The other fairly widespread use was when a manufacturer would open a competition and demand that it was submitted on their film. SO rather than setup the scene again it was easier to "copy" it :D